Old Man Kills Intruder

[Tekania]

I never said it does.

Of course you didn't. Which is why we must assume that the old man, in this instance, is innocent of murder/unjustifiable killing.

Correct; I'd have to admit, personally that based on the information I have heard or seen alone, that I would likely at this point (if I were on a jury) vote guilty for a voluntary manslaughter charge. But I know there is a lot of detail missing in this case that is not readily available in the media sources which could as easily make be vote for acquittal were I to see the information presented in court (what does "in the alley" mean? How far is this from the house? Is it just right at the house? Did Mr. Greer have an honest perception that these were the same people who have previously broke in? etc).

[Liberaxia]

Lethal force is only legitimate when someone's life is danger. Running away does not pose a threat to one's life.

Running away after having already threatened someones life is not an end to the threat. Pacification is an end. She did not surrender. Therefore, she remained a threat.

You need to familiarize yourself with law. Real law, not that Rothbardian mind-rot.

Others claim that he violated her rights by killing her. You claim that he did not. This is what is up for dispute.

One question: Were you ever a Marxist?

No. I was not. I assumed his life was his property; her life hers. She threatened his property so he reciprocated successfully.

A life is not property. It's a rather absurd premise. Kind of like saying an idea can be property.

[Distruzio]

Running away after having already threatened someones life is not an end to the threat. Pacification is an end. She did not surrender. Therefore, she remained a threat.

You need to familiarize yourself with law. Real law, not that Rothbardian mind-rot.

Real law seems to support the perspective I've offered repeatedly throughout this thread - she posed a threat and no evidence has thus far surfaced that suggests the killing was unjustifiable. We simply do not know enough about the ongoing investigation being, as we are, armchair legal analysts to merit a claim that he is guilty of any crime. The reality is that she posed a threat and did not alleviate that threat to an acceptable enough degree by running. His candid admission that he "shot her anyway" suggests that, despite himself, she yet posed a threat. He did not acknowledge, so far as we know, any surrender on her part. We do know that he surrendered to the woman and her accomplice. They beat him anyway. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that he is not guilty of any crime here. She did not pacify herself. She remained a threat.

Again, the law dictates that the accused is innocent until proven guilty. Ergo, the old man in this case, did not, in point of fact, commit a crime. Trying to bait me (however ineffectually) by harping about "Rothbardian mind-rot" (even though I've admitted to you multiple times that I was never a Rothbardian AnCap nor remain an AnCap of any caliber) does nothing but further undermine your credentials as an acceptable debate partner. Especially concerning the law as it actually exists.

Because the law, as it actually exists - even in California, seems to lean in the direction I've posited time and again.

No. I was not. I assumed his life was his property; her life hers. She threatened his property so he reciprocated successfully.

A life is not property. It's a rather absurd premise. Kind of like saying an idea can be property.

.... okay. Well, assuming this, what does marxism have to do with anything?

[Tekania]

Yes. It absolutely applies in this case.

Lethal force is only legitimate when someone's life is danger. Running away does not pose a threat to one's life.

... alright. Assume that I accept this critique. What plausible response could you expect?

Others claim that he violated her rights by killing her. You claim that he did not. This is what is up for dispute.

One question: Were you ever a Marxist?

There is no doctrine relating to appropriate force when dealing with civilians. Force doctrines apply to government agents. Use of force (any type of force, including lethal) is available in a self-defense claim by civilians in cases where they are subject to any injury which can result in death, disfigurement or prolonged or protracted pain or impairment under the established law in question here. Your personal opinion on what the law should be is irrelevant, as the only thing applicable here is the law as it exists at the time of the event.... even if you were to change it...it would STILL not be applicable to this event. In terms of injury levels there is no question (related to the code) of Mr. Greer employing lethal force in self defense; the only thing of concern and relevance is the proximity of the event in both time and distance and the perceptions of the claimant in relation to the event.

[Distruzio]

Lethal force is only legitimate when someone's life is danger. Running away does not pose a threat to one's life.



Others claim that he violated her rights by killing her. You claim that he did not. This is what is up for dispute.

One question: Were you ever a Marxist?

There is no doctrine relating to appropriate force when dealing with civilians. Force doctrines apply to government agents. Use of force (any type of force, including lethal) is available in a self-defense claim by civilians in cases where they are subject to any injury which can result in death, disfigurement or prolonged or protracted pain or impairment under the established law in question here. Your personal opinion on what the law should be is irrelevant, as the only thing applicable here is the law as it exists at the time of the event.... even if you were to change it...it would STILL not be applicable to this event. In terms of injury levels there is no question (related to the code) of Mr. Greer employing lethal force in self defense; the only thing of concern and relevance is the proximity of the event in both time and distance and the perceptions of the claimant in relation to the event.

Additionally, the admission by prospective prosecutors that no charges are pending suggests that, despite Lib's flaccid attempt to bait me, the law as interpreted by legal authorities AND myself do not consider this a criminal act on the part of the old man.... yet.

In fact, it seems that the womans accomplice has been charged with her murder. Not the old man. Moreover, both the woman and her accomplice are known repeat offenders proven guilty of having perpetrated this manner of criminal act before on multiple occasions.

[Imperializt Russia]

No. She stopped being a threat when she was pacified. Running away is not elimination of a threat. It is the reduction of threat. Elimination of threat requires pacification.

She effectively surrendered when she started to run away and begged the man not to shoot her. There was no reason to assume that she would resume her attack.

She could have surrendered when he first fired the gun in the house and left no doubt.

Because they are not.

Pregnant is not synonymous with surrender.

Pregnant women usually aren't a threat. This isn't Dead Space.

She broke several of his bones, how was she not a threat?
She'd proved her classification as a violent, malicious threat by breaking into a person's home and assaulting him.

If she thought she was pregnant, why the shit was she burglarising houses?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

(CNN) -- Tom Greer says he fought back when he was attacked by intruders at his Southern California home. Then he got his gun and fired at them and they ran.

The 80-year-old homeowner says one of the fleeing burglars, a woman, shouted, "I'm pregnant!" He shot her twice, killing her.

The woman was not pregnant, Ed Winter of the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office told CNN on Friday.

The district attorney will decide whether Greer will face criminal charges.

Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell said Greer walked into his house Tuesday to find suspects Andrea Miller, 26, and Gus Adams, 28, ransacking it. According to McDonnell, Greer said this was the fourth time his house has been burglarized.

Police say the couple beat and threw the elderly man to the ground, causing injuries, which included a broken collarbone, cuts and bruises.

Despite his injuries, Greer managed to grab his gun and fire at the suspects, causing them to flee through the garage and into the alley, police said.

In an interview with KNBC, Greer said that as the suspects ran into the alley, Miller yelled, "'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant! I'm going to have a baby!' and I shot her anyway."

Miller died in the alley, the police chief said.

When asked by KNBC how he felt about the incident, Greer responded that he had no regrets.

"I had to do what I had to do."

Adams, the alleged accomplice, fled the scene, according to Greer and Chief McDonnell. He was later arrested and charged Friday with five felony counts, including murder in Miller's death, residential robbery , burglary, grand theft firearm and possession of a firearm by a felon. He's currently jailed on $1.25 million bond.

Adams was scheduled for arraignment on Friday, but his court appearance at Los Angeles Superior Court in Long Beach was postponed until August 11.

CNN

My take on this, the guy should spend the remainder of his life in prison. Shooting once cool, he should have waited for the police to pick her up. Double tapping while down, not cool.

Greer said this was the fourth time his house has been burglarized.

Police say the couple beat and threw the elderly man to the ground, causing injuries, which included a broken collarbone, cuts and bruises.

In light of this it wouldn't have bothered me if both were killed.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

My take on this, the guy should spend the remainder of his life in prison. Shooting once cool, he should have waited for the police to pick her up. Double tapping while down, not cool.

What a retarded opinion. Once you're being burglarized for the 4th time and you've just been beaten to a pulp your last worry should be the well being of your attackers.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Dude, in the fray that often can't be helped. Would you be thinking clearly after you were assaulted? By prosecuting him, you're deterring people from defending themselves. Plain and simple.

No, you're deterring people from shooting the helpless. There is absolutely no justification for shooting someone who no longer poses a threat.

"Helpless" was she helpless when she burglarized the man and beat him with her accomplice?

[Antarticaria]

look either way you dice it legally the man is in the wrong, what he should of done is shot both of them whilst in his house.
Morally I clap and I find it funny when the tables turn but legally hes got prison.

[Ifreann]

And shot at her. Presumably without hitting her, since she continued to flee out into the alley.

She stopped being a threat when she started running away.

No. She stopped being a threat when she was pacified. Running away is not elimination of a threat. It is the reduction of threat. Elimination of threat requires pacification.

She was a threat when running away to the same extent that any random person was a threat. Not that I'd be surprised at this point if you were to argue that one may "pacify" any other person at any point if they fail to surrender properly.

Some recognition that not all crimes warrant death. I hadn't realised you placed so little value on human life.

It's precisely the opposite, though. I place such a high value on life that I recognize threat of death as the absolute dissuasion when violent crimes, such as is the case with this crime, are committed. She was a violent criminal. She threatened his life and livelihood. Ergo, her actions merited death.

That doesn't seem to me like valuing life at all. Valuing obedience to your particular notions of right and wrong, maybe.

It is reasonable to believe that someone you've stumbled upon robbing your house means to harm you when they swing your fist at you. It is not reasonable to believe that they mean to harm you when they are running away from you pleading not to be shot.

It is, likewise, reasonable to assume that the old man, despite himself, begged for them to stop assaulting him in the midst of the assault. It is, likewise, reasonable to assume that the criminal in question did NOT stop despite his clear pacification. Thus his escalation is completely warranted.

He was perfectly warranted in firing at them initially. Pursuing them and killing Miller was not warranted.

---

She effectively surrendered when she started to run away and begged the man not to shoot her. There was no reason to assume that she would resume her attack.

Effectively is never, ever, in reality, ACTUALLY.

There is no reason to assume that she would not have resumed her attack. Remember, we're each looking at the same evidence here. She sought the man out. Assaulted him causing significant physical harm. She fled. In no way can we assume the threat was ended.

She didn't seek him out. She was robbing his house when he returned to it. In all likelihood she never wanted to encounter him at all.

---

We can't extrapolate what she would have done out of the evidence we have.

Indeed. Therefore we must err on the side of the victim. Especially considering our rather poor judicial credentials. Especially considering the tendency of jurisprudence to proclaim a person innocent until proven guilty. Since we're discussing, in this thread, a potential crime perpetrated by the old man against the woman who assaulted him, and without any evidence so far presented suggesting his guilt, we must assume this to be a justified killing - being armchair judicial experts as we are.

The presumption of innocence is for the courts. We are not the courts, so we do not need to presume this man's innocence any more than we need to presume the innocence of the people who robbed him.

---

(CNN) -- Tom Greer says he fought back when he was attacked by intruders at his Southern California home. Then he got his gun and fired at them and they ran.

The 80-year-old homeowner says one of the fleeing burglars, a woman, shouted, "I'm pregnant!" He shot her twice, killing her.

The woman was not pregnant, Ed Winter of the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office told CNN on Friday.

The district attorney will decide whether Greer will face criminal charges.

Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell said Greer walked into his house Tuesday to find suspects Andrea Miller, 26, and Gus Adams, 28, ransacking it. According to McDonnell, Greer said this was the fourth time his house has been burglarized.

Police say the couple beat and threw the elderly man to the ground, causing injuries, which included a broken collarbone, cuts and bruises.

Despite his injuries, Greer managed to grab his gun and fire at the suspects, causing them to flee through the garage and into the alley, police said.

In an interview with KNBC, Greer said that as the suspects ran into the alley, Miller yelled, "'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant! I'm going to have a baby!' and I shot her anyway."

Miller died in the alley, the police chief said.

When asked by KNBC how he felt about the incident, Greer responded that he had no regrets.

"I had to do what I had to do."

Adams, the alleged accomplice, fled the scene, according to Greer and Chief McDonnell. He was later arrested and charged Friday with five felony counts, including murder in Miller's death, residential robbery , burglary, grand theft firearm and possession of a firearm by a felon. He's currently jailed on $1.25 million bond.

Adams was scheduled for arraignment on Friday, but his court appearance at Los Angeles Superior Court in Long Beach was postponed until August 11.

CNN

My take on this, the guy should spend the remainder of his life in prison. Shooting once cool, he should have waited for the police to pick her up. Double tapping while down, not cool.

Greer said this was the fourth time his house has been burglarized.

Police say the couple beat and threw the elderly man to the ground, causing injuries, which included a broken collarbone, cuts and bruises.

In light of this it wouldn't have bothered me if both were killed.

Because some other people robbed the same old man's house?

[Ucropi]

In my opinion the old man deserves the death penalty.

[Des-Bal]

Shooting someone twice isn't a problem, shoot until the threat is gone.
Shooting someone whose fleeing is a problem. You don't need to defend yourself from someone running away

[The raptors that eascaped jurassic park]

(CNN) -- Tom Greer says he fought back when he was attacked by intruders at his Southern California home. Then he got his gun and fired at them and they ran.

The 80-year-old homeowner says one of the fleeing burglars, a woman, shouted, "I'm pregnant!" He shot her twice, killing her.

The woman was not pregnant, Ed Winter of the Los Angeles County Coroner's Office told CNN on Friday.

The district attorney will decide whether Greer will face criminal charges.

Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell said Greer walked into his house Tuesday to find suspects Andrea Miller, 26, and Gus Adams, 28, ransacking it. According to McDonnell, Greer said this was the fourth time his house has been burglarized.

Police say the couple beat and threw the elderly man to the ground, causing injuries, which included a broken collarbone, cuts and bruises.

Despite his injuries, Greer managed to grab his gun and fire at the suspects, causing them to flee through the garage and into the alley, police said.

In an interview with KNBC, Greer said that as the suspects ran into the alley, Miller yelled, "'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant! I'm going to have a baby!' and I shot her anyway."

Miller died in the alley, the police chief said.

When asked by KNBC how he felt about the incident, Greer responded that he had no regrets.

"I had to do what I had to do."

Adams, the alleged accomplice, fled the scene, according to Greer and Chief McDonnell. He was later arrested and charged Friday with five felony counts, including murder in Miller's death, residential robbery , burglary, grand theft firearm and possession of a firearm by a felon. He's currently jailed on $1.25 million bond.

Adams was scheduled for arraignment on Friday, but his court appearance at Los Angeles Superior Court in Long Beach was postponed until August 11.

CNN

My take on this, the guy should spend the remainder of his life in prison. Shooting once cool, he should have waited for the police to pick her up. Double tapping while down, not cool.

No way! That guy was way to bad ass!

And I mean he was robbed 4 times and beaten a lot then he decided to fight back!

[The raptors that eascaped jurassic park]

In my opinion the old man deserves the death penalty.

WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK EVERYONE MUST BE KILLED WTF IS WRONG WITH HUMANS?!?!!

[Ucropi]

In my opinion the old man deserves the death penalty.

WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK EVERYONE MUST BE KILLED WTF IS WRONG WITH HUMANS?!?!!

If you murder once you will most like murder again.

[MERIZoC]

In my opinion the old man deserves the death penalty.

Wut. No.

[MERIZoC]

WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK EVERYONE MUST BE KILLED WTF IS WRONG WITH HUMANS?!?!!

If you murder once you will most like murder again.

[citation needed]

[Ucropi]

If you murder once you will most like murder again.

[citation needed]

What's it like being a dick and not actually adding to a discussion?

[Antarticaria]

WHY DOES EVERYONE THINK EVERYONE MUST BE KILLED WTF IS WRONG WITH HUMANS?!?!!

If you murder once you will most like murder again.

And what of the people who serve out he death penalty, wont they become mass murderers by your logic?

[Ucropi]

If you murder once you will most like murder again.

And what of the people who serve out he death penalty, wont they become mass murderers by your logic?

So you believe we should be executing soldiers? There is a difference between murder and your job

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

[citation needed]

What's it like being a dick and not actually adding to a discussion?

*** Deleted *** - last straw, since your previous warnings and bans have done nothing to curb your bad behavior.

Argument, not player, folks. And please - though this was phrased poorly - post in contribution, with /some/ content or other, per favore? Don't be 'that guy'. It isn't edgy, it isn't a fantastic comeback, it's simply lazy posting.

[Destiny Island]

At first I was on the old man's side, until I heard that he chased them down into an alley and then killed them. He should be charged with second degree murder. Definitely doesn't deserve the death penalty though.

[Tekania]

At first I was on the old man's side, until I heard that he chased them down into an alley and then killed them. He should be charged with second degree murder. Definitely doesn't deserve the death penalty though.

Well it seems the alley is in the immediate vicinity of the house and the time frame was very rapid; at least according to what the press release the police gave was seemingly implying..... which puts it more along the lines of voluntary manslaughter rather than second degree murder.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Because some other people robbed the same old man's house?

..and because he had just been beaten to a pulp by the two. Way to ignore a post. In theory shooting someone that is fleeing isn't the right thing to do , and it would only be acceptable on the man's property. Whilst it is easy for us armchair judges to analyze the situation and accuse him we must remember that it was the 4th time he was being burglarized and as previously mentioned he had just been beaten by the two. Charging him with murder is the most retarded thing one could do. This is at the very worst voluntary manslaughter.

EDIT: The US definition for voluntary manslaughter is pretty stupid. Killing someone in the "heat of passion" with intent to kill (supposedly "voluntary manslaughter") isn't any less serious than doing it without this "heat of passion". IMO there should be 4 types of homicide: 1st degree murder - intent to kill, premeditated , 2nd degree murder - intent to kill, not premeditated , voluntary manslaughter - intent to harm but not kill , involuntary manslaughter - no intent to harm or kill