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It's Time For Conservatives To Stop Defending Police

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Yumyumsuppertime
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It's Time For Conservatives To Stop Defending Police

Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:39 pm

Or at least that's the title of an essay in National Review by A.J. Delgado, who calls into question much of the right's seemingly knee-jerk defense of police officers. Without denying that individual law enforcement officials do stellar and brave work, or denying the need for a police force, she points out what could be seen as an inherent contradiction in conservative philosophy and the tendency of conservatives to stand solely on the side of representatives of the law regardless of the facts of the case. In doing so, she touches on many of the stories we've discussed on this forum over the past few months.

A sample:

Imagine if I were to tell you there is a large group of government employees, with generous salaries and ridiculously cushy retirement pensions covered by the taxpayer, who enjoy incredible job security and are rarely held accountable even for activities that would almost certainly earn the rest of us prison time. When there is proven misconduct, these government employees are merely reassigned and are rarely dismissed. The bill for any legal settlements concerning their errors? It, too, is covered by the taxpayers. Their unions are among the strongest in the country.

No, I’m not talking about public-school teachers.

I’m talking about the police.

We conservatives recoil at the former; yet routinely defend the latter — even though, unlike teachers, police officers enjoy an utter monopoly on force and can ruin — or end — one’s life in a millisecond.

For decades, conservatives have served as stalwart defenders of police forces. There have been many good reasons for this, including long memories of the post-countercultural crime wave that devastated, and in some cases destroyed, many American cities; conservatives’ penchant for law and order; and Americans’ widely shared disdain for the cops’ usual opponents. (“Dirty hippies being arrested? Good!” is not an uncommon sentiment.) Although tough-on-crime appeals have never been limited to conservative politicians or voters, conservatives instinctively (and, it turned out, correctly) understood that the way to reduce crime is to have more cops making more arrests, not more sociologists identifying more root causes. Conservatives are rightly proud to have supported police officers doing their jobs at times when progressives were on the other side.

But it’s time for conservatives’ unconditional love affair with the police to end.

Let’s get the obligatory disclaimer out of the way: Yes, many police officers do heroic works and, yes, many are upstanding individuals who serve the community bravely and capably.

But respecting good police work means being willing to speak out against civil-liberties-breaking thugs who shrug their shoulders after brutalizing citizens.

On Thursday in Staten Island, an asthmatic 43-year-old father of six, Eric Garner, died after a group of policemen descended on him, placing him in a chokehold while attempting to arrest him for allegedly selling cigarettes. A bystander managed to capture video in which Garner clearly cries out, “I can’t breathe!” Even after releasing the chokehold (chokeholds, incidentally, are prohibited by NYPD protocol), the same officer then proceeds to shove and hold Garner’s face against the ground, applying his body weight and pressure on Garner, ignoring Garner’s pleas that he cannot breathe. Worse yet, new video shows at least eight officers standing around Garner’s lifeless, unconscious body.

Who can defend this?

And police-department Internal Affairs divisions are nearly as concerning as the cops themselves. Last week, a Miami police officer witnessed a car driving at high speeds in a pedestrian area. When he pulled the car over, the indignant driver stormed out. “Don’t you know the [expletive] I am?” the driver barked. It turns out that the driver was a police lieutenant within . . . Internal Affairs. The department in charge of ensuring proper police behavior consists of gents like this, whose first response is to assume that cops, like members of Congress, are above the law. What happened to the lieutenant? He has been transferred to “Special Investigations,” which, as a local NBC reporter points out, is more a promotion than a punishment.


You can find the entire essay here. For those who don't care to read the whole thing, here's the TL;DR: As people who value the rights of the individual over the rights of the state to control the individual, it seems ludicrous to automatically defend law enforcement officers in the face of convincing evidence that they have violated the constitutional rights of those who they are supposed to be protecting. Fourth amendment violations, police abuse resulting in injury and death, and other abuses of power are violations of the rights of the individual at the hands of agents of the state, and conservatives should constantly be on the lookout for overreach by the state, defending individual liberties against overzealous or otherwise inappropriate actions.

It's an interesting take, I believe, and one that actually makes some sense to me even as a leftist. However, I'm curious to know what conservatives on this site think of the article...not that the thread is limited to their input, of course.

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Postby The New Sea Territory » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:43 pm

Conservatives defend the police because they believe that the men dressed up in costumes with shiny badges do nothing but bust black people who deal heroin and arrest hippy anti-war protesters.

So, fuck their opinion. They are wrong, plain and simple. To be honest, most conservatives believe that there is a man in the sky who watches everyone. Why should we care about their opinions....?
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Postby Othelos » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:45 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:Conservatives defend the police because they believe that the men dressed up in costumes with shiny badges do nothing but bust black people who deal heroin and arrest hippy anti-war protesters.

So, fuck their opinion. They are wrong, plain and simple. To be honest, most conservatives believe that there is a man in the sky who watches everyone. Why should we care about their opinions....?

Because conservatives are all around us, and honestly most of them aren't that bad. It's just the fringe that's the issue.

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Postby Solaray » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:47 pm

It seems like it should be pretty simple to me. Praise good cops, punish bad cops.
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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:49 pm

Solaray wrote:It seems like it should be pretty simple to me. Praise good cops, punish bad cops.


Sure, but the point is that some conservatives have a tendency to rationalize bad actions on the part of the police, even going so far as to call them good.

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The Sotoan Union
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Postby The Sotoan Union » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:50 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Solaray wrote:It seems like it should be pretty simple to me. Praise good cops, punish bad cops.


Sure, but the point is that some conservatives have a tendency to rationalize bad actions on the part of the police, even going so far as to call them good.

Well they're wrong so... yeah.

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Postby Flyover » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:50 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Solaray wrote:It seems like it should be pretty simple to me. Praise good cops, punish bad cops.


Sure, but the point is that some conservatives have a tendency to rationalize bad actions on the part of the police, even going so far as to call them good.


I'm sure there are liberals who do that too. It's a crazy opinion not limited to one side of the spectrum. Besides, the idea that "Some police are bad, BAN THE POLICE!" is just as stupid, and I see liberals on this site talk like that.

Conservatives aren't an evil hivemind bent on dooming humanity.
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Postby Solaray » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:55 pm

Flyover wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Sure, but the point is that some conservatives have a tendency to rationalize bad actions on the part of the police, even going so far as to call them good.


I'm sure there are liberals who do that too. It's a crazy opinion not limited to one side of the spectrum. Besides, the idea that "Some police are bad, BAN THE POLICE!" is just as stupid, and I see liberals on this site talk like that.

Conservatives aren't an evil hivemind bent on dooming humanity.

That's what we want you to think ;)
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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:56 pm

Flyover wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Sure, but the point is that some conservatives have a tendency to rationalize bad actions on the part of the police, even going so far as to call them good.


I'm sure there are liberals who do that too. It's a crazy opinion not limited to one side of the spectrum. Besides, the idea that "Some police are bad, BAN THE POLICE!" is just as stupid, and I see liberals on this site talk like that.

Conservatives aren't an evil hivemind bent on dooming humanity.


Well, no, of course not, and I certainly hope that I wasn't coming across like I believed any such thing. It's just that the law and order mindset that conservatives adopted in response to many of the social upheavals of the 60s and 70s turned into something of a tendency to defend the police against all comers, unless said police could be proven to be involved with criminals. We saw this during the Rodney King trial, on Fox News every time they bother to report on an abuse story, and currently regarding the recent death of the gentleman who was unable to breathe due to a mixture of a chokehold applied by police and the weight of a police officer on his back.

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Postby Flyover » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:01 pm

Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Flyover wrote:
I'm sure there are liberals who do that too. It's a crazy opinion not limited to one side of the spectrum. Besides, the idea that "Some police are bad, BAN THE POLICE!" is just as stupid, and I see liberals on this site talk like that.

Conservatives aren't an evil hivemind bent on dooming humanity.


Well, no, of course not, and I certainly hope that I wasn't coming across like I believed any such thing. It's just that the law and order mindset that conservatives adopted in response to many of the social upheavals of the 60s and 70s turned into something of a tendency to defend the police against all comers, unless said police could be proven to be involved with criminals. We saw this during the Rodney King trial, on Fox News every time they bother to report on an abuse story, and currently regarding the recent death of the gentleman who was unable to breathe due to a mixture of a chokehold applied by police and the weight of a police officer on his back.


FOX News is crazy conservative and crazy for conservatives. They should not be seen as the norm for conservatives anymore that MSNBC or NS is for liberals.
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Postby Vistulange » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:02 pm

It's definitely an interesting take, yes. One that I can simply say "reform the police force" to. Not that I live or have lived in the United States, mind you. I live in Turkey, but it's pretty much a problem over here. Granted, the police issue is a lot more politicized here, with government goons usually being synonymous with the word "police", but that's another topic.

The conservatives or the liberals or the mutants or the aliens, whoever, should pretty much stop defending people as part of institutions and deal with people case-by-case. Note that I'm not asking for institutions or the bureaucracy to deal with people in such a manner; that would be very slow and daunting work. What I am asking for is that people stop generalizing - positively or negatively - based on a person's affiliation with an institution.

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Postby Solaray » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:04 pm

The obvious solution is to ban the police.


Wait, who's gonna enforce the ban?
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:05 pm

Solaray wrote:The obvious solution is to ban the police.


Wait, who's gonna enforce the ban?

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Postby Arlenton » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:05 pm

Anti government Goldwater Republicans aren't really big time police supporters. Moderate Rockefeller Republicans are. In the US anyway.

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Postby The Sotoan Union » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:05 pm

Solaray wrote:The obvious solution is to ban the police.


Wait, who's gonna enforce the ban?

The armed citizens, who are protecting* people.

*Not really.

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:08 pm

Flyover wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Well, no, of course not, and I certainly hope that I wasn't coming across like I believed any such thing. It's just that the law and order mindset that conservatives adopted in response to many of the social upheavals of the 60s and 70s turned into something of a tendency to defend the police against all comers, unless said police could be proven to be involved with criminals. We saw this during the Rodney King trial, on Fox News every time they bother to report on an abuse story, and currently regarding the recent death of the gentleman who was unable to breathe due to a mixture of a chokehold applied by police and the weight of a police officer on his back.


FOX News is crazy conservative and crazy for conservatives. They should not be seen as the norm for conservatives anymore that MSNBC or NS is for liberals.


Now that they've cut the Birthers loose and have distanced themselves from members of the most recent Bush administration, I've found most of Fox (not counting the drooling, grinning, gibbering mass over at Fox and Friends) to provide a reasonable insight into what could be termed conservative conventional wisdom, though of course they don't reflect all the colors of that rainbow.

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Postby United Christian America » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:40 pm

The New Sea Territory wrote:Conservatives defend the police because they believe that the men dressed up in costumes with shiny badges do nothing but bust black people who deal heroin and arrest hippy anti-war protesters.

So, fuck their opinion. They are wrong, plain and simple. To be honest, most conservatives believe that there is a man in the sky who watches everyone. Why should we care about their opinions....?


Flyover wrote:
Yumyumsuppertime wrote:
Sure, but the point is that some conservatives have a tendency to rationalize bad actions on the part of the police, even going so far as to call them good.


I'm sure there are liberals who do that too. It's a crazy opinion not limited to one side of the spectrum. Besides, the idea that "Some police are bad, BAN THE POLICE!" is just as stupid, and I see liberals on this site talk like that.

Conservatives aren't an evil hivemind bent on dooming humanity.


Exactly!

Police brutality is indeed a troubling matter, and adding to the complaints about extreme (and no doubt immoral) use of force there are also news reports suggesting that certain precincts are guilty of corruption as well! Or at the very least covering up the truth in order to protect certain abusive officers.

But the idea that we should just ban the police is a funny one. I'm sure people are familiar with crime rates, muggings, and murders. Sure, it might not happen to you, but when certain people of a liberal persuasion claim to be more compassionate than conservatives, can such people sit back and shrug when others demand the disbanding of the police and the removal of force, only to have crime rates go up and people who act like thugs (for various reasons that are often related to survival) prey on them?

I sure hope not!

It's true that cops can't solve all crime. They're just human. And we don't want a full regiment of Inspector Javerts grabbing every last petty thief for stealing a loaf of bread, but at the same time we do need some kind of law enforcement to patrol the streets. We need to enforce the idea that the law applies to everyone, from the President, from the very rich, from the enforcers of law themselves to the common man and the beggar. The Magna Carta was significant for a reason: it showed that even the King was subject to the law. In an age without kings, are Police lieutenants not equally subject to the law? If they do wrong, they must make amends.

People might mention that militia and vigilantes can do the job. And sure a Batman can help from time to time, but who watches the watchman then? Who can make sure that he stays in line? The law and those who enforce it ought to stay, but the enforcers must remember that they, too, are subject to and must obey the LAW.
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Postby Nazi Flower Power » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:45 pm

I am not a conservative, but the excerpt you posted seems like a reasonable point of view. Police do have a purpose and a value to society, but we trust them with a lot of power, and it's important that they use their power responsibly.
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:48 pm

Nazi Flower Power wrote:I am not a conservative, but the excerpt you posted seems like a reasonable point of view. Police do have a purpose and a value to society, but we trust them with a lot of power, and it's important that they use their power responsibly.


It's for the same reason that they need to be heavily screened before they become a police officer.
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Postby Nazi Flower Power » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:50 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Nazi Flower Power wrote:I am not a conservative, but the excerpt you posted seems like a reasonable point of view. Police do have a purpose and a value to society, but we trust them with a lot of power, and it's important that they use their power responsibly.


It's for the same reason that they need to be heavily screened before they become a police officer.


Yeah, not everyone can be trusted to be a cop.
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Postby Topid » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:07 pm

Nazi Flower Power wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
It's for the same reason that they need to be heavily screened before they become a police officer.


Yeah, not everyone can be trusted to be a cop.
Most of the people that can be trusted to be a cop could probably swing a better paying job however. ;) At least in most parts of the countries, police are not paid well at all. Then again, I suppose the police around here deal with way milder stuff than a New York or LA cop would.

I think social media is slowly evolving the way we see police. I see a video shared in my news feed pretty much daily of a cop using excessive force or saying things about the law that are simply wrong. I think they are slowly eroding their trust.
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Postby Flyover » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:14 pm

Topid wrote:
Nazi Flower Power wrote:
Yeah, not everyone can be trusted to be a cop.
Most of the people that can be trusted to be a cop could probably swing a better paying job however. ;) At least in most parts of the countries, police are not paid well at all. Then again, I suppose the police around here deal with way milder stuff than a New York or LA cop would.

I think social media is slowly evolving the way we see police. I see a video shared in my news feed pretty much daily of a cop using excessive force or saying things about the law that are simply wrong. I think they are slowly eroding their trust.


Is police brutality actually on the rise or do we just notice it more? I actually have no idea.
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Postby Topid » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:18 pm

Flyover wrote:
Topid wrote:Most of the people that can be trusted to be a cop could probably swing a better paying job however. ;) At least in most parts of the countries, police are not paid well at all. Then again, I suppose the police around here deal with way milder stuff than a New York or LA cop would.

I think social media is slowly evolving the way we see police. I see a video shared in my news feed pretty much daily of a cop using excessive force or saying things about the law that are simply wrong. I think they are slowly eroding their trust.


Is police brutality actually on the rise or do we just notice it more? I actually have no idea.

I'm not saying it is on the rise, just that instead of hearing the stories from the mouth of someone who is now accused of a crime and whose reputation is completely crap, we see cell phone videos of how they treat people.
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:29 pm

I agree, the police can do stuff that if I did, I'd be making license plates in Jackson State Penitentiary down in Jackson.
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:35 pm

Topid wrote:
Flyover wrote:
Is police brutality actually on the rise or do we just notice it more? I actually have no idea.

I'm not saying it is on the rise, just that instead of hearing the stories from the mouth of someone who is now accused of a crime and whose reputation is completely crap, we see cell phone videos of how they treat people.


Exactly. Police brutality used to be very difficult to prove due to the Blue Code Of Silence. The Rodney King tape changed all of that, and suddenly cops found themselves forced to defend some of their extreme actions in court. Now, of course, people have cameras everywhere, and police departments themselves have taken to recording their officers on the job with dashboard cameras, with badge cameras beginning to make an appearance, as well. Now that nearly everyone can pull a hand-sized video recorder out of their pockets, reports have increased, but we're also seeing some abuse claims canceled when the alleged victims find out that the interaction was recorded.

Point is, I've seen law and order types on here still stand up for the police in cases where they were quite blatantly in the wrong, usually with "Well, he shouldn't have resisted", or "It's a tough job, and they had to make a call". That has to stop. It's the defense of overwhelming state power used against individual citizens, power used and abused, and it's simply wrong.

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