Can Socialism and Nationalism co-exist?

[Pandeeria]

Yes.

A better question would be if that's a preferable or good mix.

[Skenderos]

Every heard of Yugoslavia

[Conserative Morality]

Yes. See: Josip Broz Tito

[New Educandi]

I was having an argument with a friend who is a leftist. She argues that socialism and nationalism cannot exist together. However I feel that they can. She is going from a marxist perspective and definition of socialism which is explicitly against the bourguoise idea of nationalism, however I would simply define socialism in more pragmatic real terms: state ownership of production. (I realise the term is rather void of meaning over the last century) Our crux of difference was that she defined national socialism for example as corporatism rather than socialsm.)

I argued that ideologies using both have existed: IRA, Ba'thism, Mugabe, Ideologies of national liberation, some leftist palestinian organisations, pan-arabism etc. (It could be argued that one should not accept the self definition of such ideologies, but rather take a pragmatic analysis)

What say ye? Can nationalism and socialism exist side by side.

(pardon my English, it is not my first language.)

It can, but however, in myy humble opinion, should not.

[Pandeeria]

I am a Democratic Socialist and a nationalist, I love America with all my heart and would die for it, and I believe that Socialism is the best way to go for America. I don't misunderstand either of the concepts of Nationalism or Socialism. I am literally living proof that they can co-exist.

No you're not.

America also doesn't need Socialism.

[Dejanic]

Every heard of Yugoslavia

Yeah it collapsed awfully due to ethnic tensions, severe debt, and an unbelievably high unemployment rate.

The former Yugoslavia is actually a thorn in the side of the Market Socialist movement, not something to be proud of, like some Market Socialists like to claim.

[Baiynistan]

Yes, they can coexist. Not as harmoniously as Socialism and Internationalism, I believe, but hey-ho!

[Dejanic]

I am a Democratic Socialist and a nationalist, I love America with all my heart and would die for it, and I believe that Socialism is the best way to go for America. I don't misunderstand either of the concepts of Nationalism or Socialism. I am literally living proof that they can co-exist.

No you're not.

America also doesn't need Socialism.

Yo, a bit off topic, but I generally agree with most things you say, and I understand your dislike for Socialism. So I wish, I wish so so much, that you would just call yourself a Social Democrat instead of a Liberal Socialist.

[Dejanic]

Yes. See: Josip Broz Tito

See: Poverty, unemployment, death, deportations, me.

[Arab Republic of Syria]

Countries need nationalism, its the only reasonable way for a human to run things.

Nationalism and Socialism can co-exist, the evil ideas of International Communism, Globalism, and Globalization/International Capitalism are pure evil.

Only Jesus goes past borders and create world unity

[Kuzbeckistan]

It is Possible.
Ideologies such as Titoism ,Ba'athism and Juche have elements of Nationalism yet they can still maintain Socialism

[Pandeeria]

No you're not.

America also doesn't need Socialism.

Yo, a bit off topic, but I generally agree with most things you say, and I understand your dislike for Socialism. So I wish, I wish so so much, that you would just call yourself a Social Democrat instead of a Liberal Socialist.

Well I like to call myself a Liberal Socialist just to screw with others.

And the term "Social Democrat" is a bit too vague.

[Dejanic]

Countries need nationalism, its the only reasonable way for a human to run things.

Nationalism and Socialism can co-exist, the idea of International Communism, Globalism, and Globalization/International Capitalism are pure evil.
Only Jesus goes past borders.

Syria is an artificial nation, it's borders were drawn up by colonial powers.

Oh, how's that Nationalism working out for the Syrian people, by the way?

[Arab Republic of Syria]

Countries need nationalism, its the only reasonable way for a human to run things.

Nationalism and Socialism can co-exist, the idea of International Communism, Globalism, and Globalization/International Capitalism are pure evil.
Only Jesus goes past borders.

Syria is an artificial nation, it's borders were drawn up by colonial powers.

Oh, how's that Nationalism working out for the Syrian people, by the way?

Takfiri rats such as the FSA are trying to destroy the Syrian nation.

These are Syria’s natural borders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Syria

[Dejanic]

Yo, a bit off topic, but I generally agree with most things you say, and I understand your dislike for Socialism. So I wish, I wish so so much, that you would just call yourself a Social Democrat instead of a Liberal Socialist.

Well I like to call myself a Liberal Socialist just to screw with others.

And the term "Social Democrat" is a bit too vague.

And the term "Liberal Socialist" isn't vague.

I get it though, confusing people is pretty fun sometimes.

[Dejanic]

Syria is an artificial nation, it's borders were drawn up by colonial powers.

Oh, how's that Nationalism working out for the Syrian people, by the way?

Takfiri rats such as the FSA are trying to destroy the Syrian nation.

These are Syria’s natural borders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Syria

Na sorry, most of that land is going to be part of the future Greater Serbian Kingdom, led by me and the ghost of Milosevic, try again.

[Nickel Empire]

Yes.

[The New Sea Territory]

Yes, but you cannot be a libertarian socialist and a nationalist. Or a communist and a nationalist.

[Arab Republic of Syria]

Takfiri rats such as the FSA are trying to destroy the Syrian nation.

These are Syria’s natural borders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Syria

Na sorry, most of that land is going to be part of the future Greater Serbian Kingdom, led by me and the ghost of Milosevic, try again.

Milosevic is one of my heroes btw, I believe Kosovo is Serbia.


But this is Syria.

[Dejanic]

I think it's probably best that your nation tries to sort out it's horrific civil war before you start talking about territorial expansionism, your claims are as legitimate at the moment as Greece's claims over Constantinople.

[Great Britain and Austrasia]

Yes they can. The desire for preservation and advancement of the national interest and identity and the desire for public ownership of services are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly feasible for a given state to be domestically socialist (through creation of a welfare state and the nationalisation of industry) and to have a nationalist (for example, expansionist) foreign policy.


Also, class conflict and race/ethnicity conflict are not mutually exclusive either. A state can advocate the supremacy of the working proletariat while at the same time advocating the subjugation of ethnic minorities into the national culture.

[Liberaxia]

"In my writings on the national question I have already said that an abstract presentation of the question of nationalism in general is of no use at all. A distinction must necessarily be made between the nationalism of an oppressor nation and that of an oppressed nation, the nationalism of a big nation and that of a small nation."

-V. I. Lenin

Basically, a huge capitalist empire would be a no, but a small nation trying to get out of the clutches of said empire would be a yes.
Obviously, this would be the Leninist perspective. As for other types of socialist ideologies, I'm not sure.

Doesn't this totally-cohesive logic fall into the same strand of logic as "it's OK to be racist as long as you're not white"-- "it's OK to be a nationalist as long as you're not the dominant country". Pretty faulty if you ask me.

And [tru] capitalism and the modern state, and even less so an imperialist institution, cannot coexist.

"True capitalism", just like "true communism". Only edgier.

[Conserative Morality]

See: Poverty, unemployment, death, deportations, me.

We talking the same Yugoslavia that outperformed a good deal of the Soviet bloc and some Western-aligned countries in the post-war period?

[Arab Republic of Syria]

I think it's probably best that your nation tries to sort out it's horrific civil war before you start talking about territorial expansionism, your claims are as legitimate at the moment as Greece's claims over Constantinople.

Constantinople is part Greece, and yes Socialism and nationalism can coexist.

Internationalism and Marxism are some of the most evil ideologies on the planet.

Capitalist Americans backed Marx’s writings.

[Arab Republic of Syria]

See: Poverty, unemployment, death, deportations, me.

We talking the same Yugoslavia that outperformed a good deal of the Soviet bloc and some Western-aligned countries in the post-war period?

The same Yugoslavia that murdered Milosevic?