Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Roski]

The US would be doing more for Ukraine if it didn't mean that Russia might stop giving us oil.

We don't really get any significant amount of oil from Russia. We domestically produce the majority of our oil and our biggest trading partners are Canada and then the Middle East.

Its more giving NATO oil than giving us oil.

[Rio Cana]

Last I checked, Putin wasn't a Pro-Russian rebel

Yes but he has done very little to try and stop the rebels, may have been supporting them and is certainly responsible for the Russian take over of Crimea, which helped create this whole crisis.

I think there is more to it. It seems the Russians considered the Ukraine to be too important to fall into NATO sphere of influence. They already have the Baltic States in NATO. A Ukraine NATO would seem to Russia has if they are being surrounded. So for Russia its is in there national interest to help the rebels thus maybe get a buffer zone between themselves and a NATO Ukraine.

The US has done the same. Remember, when the Soviets got involved in Cuba with those missiles. The US saw its national interests were in danger so they acted.. And Cuba did not even have a land border with the US unlike the Ukraine and Russia.

[Spirit of Hope]

Yes but he has done very little to try and stop the rebels, may have been supporting them and is certainly responsible for the Russian take over of Crimea, which helped create this whole crisis.

I think there is more to it. It seems the Russians considered the Ukraine to be too important to fall into NATO sphere of influence. They already have the Baltic States in NATO. A Ukraine NATO would seem to Russia has if they are being surrounded. So for Russia its is in there national interest to help the rebels thus maybe get a buffer zone between themselves and a NATO Ukraine.

The US has done the same. Remember, when the Soviets got involved in Cuba . And Cuba did not even have a land border with the US unlike the Ukraine and Russia.

There are a couple of key differences here.

1) It is no longer the cold war.
2) Russia doesn't need a buffer zone.
3) Until this recent unpleasantness the gov't of Ukraine had no interest in joining NATO, they were more interested in joining the EU.
4) Russia has signed a treaty saying it will no violate the territorial integrity of Ukraine, which has apparently gone out the window with Crimea.
5) The Soviet Union attempted to put nuclear weapons in Cuba, which is where a lot of the tension came from.
6) The government of Cuba that the US was apposing had overthrown the previous government.
7) I would say the Bay of Pigs Invasion was wrong, 2 wrongs don't equal a right.

I'm not saying your assessment of the situation is wrong, most likely Putin is acting this way in an attempt to keep Ukraine destabilized and create a buffer zone against NATO/EU/the West. I just don't think he has the right to do that.

[Costa Fierro]

Guess who has now admitted to having Buk missiles in their possession?

And he also said the Buk system came from Luhansk under the flag of the rebels. Presumably, what we suspected about the origins of the missile may turn out to be true.

[Limborg]

A local villager of the crashsite told nieuwsuur (Dutch tv news) that the village was discussing the possibility of setting up some kind of memorial or monument for those that died. I hope they do it so relatives can still visit the place to remember those that where lost once peace has returned to the region.

An investigation has also started to see if Malaysian airlines had taken a proper stance on the situation regarding the flight over that region. This came after other countries changed their flightroute after warnings (UK, France, Russia ect.). They also demand that more airlines get access to such information to avoid any incidents like this one in the future.

[Farnhamia]

A local villager of the crashsite told nieuwsuur (Dutch tv news) that the village was discussing the possibility of setting up some kind of memorial or monument for those that died. I hope they do it so relatives can still visit the place to remember those that where lost once peace has returned to the region.

An investigation has also started to see if Malaysian airlines had taken a proper stance on the situation regarding the flight over that region. This came after other countries changed their flightroute after warnings (UK, France, Russia ect.). They also demand that more airlines get access to such information to avoid any incidents like this one in the future.

The airplane might be blamed for not thinking ahead about flying over Ukraine but then the route had not been declared unsafe by any international aeronautics agency at the time of the flight.

[Limborg]

I think there is more to it. It seems the Russians considered the Ukraine to be too important to fall into NATO sphere of influence. They already have the Baltic States in NATO. A Ukraine NATO would seem to Russia has if they are being surrounded. So for Russia its is in there national interest to help the rebels thus maybe get a buffer zone between themselves and a NATO Ukraine.

The US has done the same. Remember, when the Soviets got involved in Cuba . And Cuba did not even have a land border with the US unlike the Ukraine and Russia.

There are a couple of key differences here.

1) It is no longer the cold war.
2) Russia doesn't need a buffer zone.
3) Until this recent unpleasantness the gov't of Ukraine had no interest in joining NATO, they were more interested in joining the EU.
4) Russia has signed a treaty saying it will no violate the territorial integrity of Ukraine, which has apparently gone out the window with Crimea.
5) The Soviet Union attempted to put nuclear weapons in Cuba, which is where a lot of the tension came from.
6) The government of Cuba that the US was apposing had overthrown the previous government.
7) I would say the Bay of Pigs Invasion was wrong, 2 wrongs don't equal a right.

I'm not saying your assessment of the situation is wrong, most likely Putin is acting this way in an attempt to keep Ukraine destabilized and create a buffer zone against NATO/EU/the West. I just don't think he has the right to do that.

2) Meh, i prefer them having one, having none only leads to problems.
3) Wich they won't for the coming 30/40 years or so. The EU has a pretty long "demands" list, it can take ages for countries to join.
4) Every UN member has promised not to violate other countries integrity (UN law), yet it happens all the time.
6) Not to forget that that previous government was in fact a dictator who had come to power with the support of the US, a dictator that was way more cruel then Castro ever was.

[Spirit of Hope]

There are a couple of key differences here.

1) It is no longer the cold war.
2) Russia doesn't need a buffer zone.
3) Until this recent unpleasantness the gov't of Ukraine had no interest in joining NATO, they were more interested in joining the EU.
4) Russia has signed a treaty saying it will no violate the territorial integrity of Ukraine, which has apparently gone out the window with Crimea.
5) The Soviet Union attempted to put nuclear weapons in Cuba, which is where a lot of the tension came from.
6) The government of Cuba that the US was apposing had overthrown the previous government.
7) I would say the Bay of Pigs Invasion was wrong, 2 wrongs don't equal a right.

I'm not saying your assessment of the situation is wrong, most likely Putin is acting this way in an attempt to keep Ukraine destabilized and create a buffer zone against NATO/EU/the West. I just don't think he has the right to do that.

2) Meh, i prefer them having one, having none only leads to problems.
3) Wich they won't for the coming 30/40 years or so. The EU has a pretty long "demands" list, it can take ages for countries to join.
4) Every UN member has promised not to violate other countries integrity (UN law), yet it happens all the time.
6) Not to forget that that previous government was in fact a dictator who had come to power with the support of the US, a dictator that was way more cruel then Castro ever was.

2) Why do would you prefer Russia having a buffer zone?
3) Exactly, it isn't like the decedent west was moving onto Russia's doorstep.
4) When Ukraine had its nuclear weapons removed both the US and Russia signed a treaty saying they would respect and defend Ukraine's territorial integrity.
6) True, doesn't mean Castro wasn't cruel, and that he didn't agree to house nuclear weapons for the USSR.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

6) The government of Cuba that the US was apposing had overthrown the previous government.

Followed by:

I'm not saying your assessment of the situation is wrong, most likely Putin is acting this way in an attempt to keep Ukraine destabilized and create a buffer zone against NATO/EU/the West. I just don't think he has the right to do that.

So the US has the right to attempt to overthrow governments that aren't friendly to it, but Russia doesn't?

[Limborg]

A local villager of the crashsite told nieuwsuur (Dutch tv news) that the village was discussing the possibility of setting up some kind of memorial or monument for those that died. I hope they do it so relatives can still visit the place to remember those that where lost once peace has returned to the region.

An investigation has also started to see if Malaysian airlines had taken a proper stance on the situation regarding the flight over that region. This came after other countries changed their flightroute after warnings (UK, France, Russia ect.). They also demand that more airlines get access to such information to avoid any incidents like this one in the future.

The airplane might be blamed for not thinking ahead about flying over Ukraine but then the route had not been declared unsafe by any international aeronautics agency at the time of the flight.

Indeed, and true. Its more to make a statement, to warn airliners that they should be more carefull next time they plan a flight over a warzone. Besides that, the relatives have the right to know if it was safe enough or not. Airliners now just say it was safe becouse (in this case) Eurocontrol said so. We both know that the relatives don't have much to go on that one, so its good that an investigation has been started to really see if it was safe or not.

[Limborg]

2) Meh, i prefer them having one, having none only leads to problems.
3) Wich they won't for the coming 30/40 years or so. The EU has a pretty long "demands" list, it can take ages for countries to join.
4) Every UN member has promised not to violate other countries integrity (UN law), yet it happens all the time.
6) Not to forget that that previous government was in fact a dictator who had come to power with the support of the US, a dictator that was way more cruel then Castro ever was.

2) Why do would you prefer Russia having a buffer zone?
3) Exactly, it isn't like the decedent west was moving onto Russia's doorstep.
4) When Ukraine had its nuclear weapons removed both the US and Russia signed a treaty saying they would respect and defend Ukraine's territorial integrity.
6) True, doesn't mean Castro wasn't cruel, and that he didn't agree to house nuclear weapons for the USSR.

2) Safety
3) True, but i do understand Russia's concerns about it.
4) So both Russia and the US violated that.
6) Indeed, Castro isn't/wasn't great either; I don't understand what you meant with the last part though.

[Spirit of Hope]

2) Why do would you prefer Russia having a buffer zone?
3) Exactly, it isn't like the decedent west was moving onto Russia's doorstep.
4) When Ukraine had its nuclear weapons removed both the US and Russia signed a treaty saying they would respect and defend Ukraine's territorial integrity.
6) True, doesn't mean Castro wasn't cruel, and that he didn't agree to house nuclear weapons for the USSR.

2) Safety
3) True, but i do understand Russia's concerns about it.
4) So both Russia and the US violated that.
6) Indeed, Castro isn't/wasn't great either; I don't understand what you meant with the last part though.

2&3) Safety from what? The "west" isn't going to invade Russia, and isn't threatening Russia militarily. Economically the EU and Ukraine getting closer isn't a threat either, Russia's natural gas is a big stick and improving economics mean more trade generally which wouldn't hurt Russia. Additionally Russia does't have the right o dictate, or attempt to dictate, policy to another sovereign nation just because it wants a completely useless buffer zone.
4) The US is attempting to lay pressure on Russia for the return of Crimea and to try and end the fighting. It isn't something the US is going to go to war over but at least they are attempting to keep there end of the deal. Russia flagrantly violated it.
6) CUban Missile Crisis? Not that it is really connected to the current discussion.

[Organized States]

The airplane might be blamed for not thinking ahead about flying over Ukraine but then the route had not been declared unsafe by any international aeronautics agency at the time of the flight.

Indeed, and true. Its more to make a statement, to warn airliners that they should be more carefull next time they plan a flight over a warzone. Besides that, the relatives have the right to know if it was safe enough or not. Airliners now just say it was safe becouse (in this case) Eurocontrol said so. We both know that the relatives don't have much to go on that one, so its good that an investigation has been started to really see if it was safe or not.

What exactly should they do to be "safer" over flashpoints? Airlines can't afford to not fly over certain areas, and Airline pilots aren't trained in countermeasures, going defensive, or anything of the matter. Though they could have taken a different route, it wouldn't have mattered much due to the mobile natural of the SAM battery if the rebels really wanted to shoot it down.

[Limborg]

2) Safety
3) True, but i do understand Russia's concerns about it.
4) So both Russia and the US violated that.
6) Indeed, Castro isn't/wasn't great either; I don't understand what you meant with the last part though.

2&3) Safety from what? The "west" isn't going to invade Russia, and isn't threatening Russia militarily. Economically the EU and Ukraine getting closer isn't a threat either, Russia's natural gas is a big stick and improving economics mean more trade generally which wouldn't hurt Russia. Additionally Russia does't have the right o dictate, or attempt to dictate, policy to another sovereign nation just because it wants a completely useless buffer zone.
4) The US is attempting to lay pressure on Russia for the return of Crimea and to try and end the fighting. It isn't something the US is going to go to war over but at least they are attempting to keep there end of the deal. Russia flagrantly violated it.
6) CUban Missile Crisis? Not that it is really connected to the current discussion.

2&3) Yes, the west is threatening Russia in this way, and no, Ukraine wasn't a useless buffer zone. I keep it at this, if you want to discuss this more into depths i advice us do to that in another topic since this one has little to do with that issue.
4) Attempting wasn't part of the deal according to you, defending was. US failed in that since Crimea is already part of Russia and most people there are glad that they are part of Russia now. This won't change, and therefor the US violated it aswell, it didn't defended Ukraine in any way, even the "attempts" are just sad.
6) I got that, but i didn't understand what you meant by the last line you wrote earlier, anyhow, you're right, it doesn't really have to do anything with the current topic.

[Limborg]

Indeed, and true. Its more to make a statement, to warn airliners that they should be more carefull next time they plan a flight over a warzone. Besides that, the relatives have the right to know if it was safe enough or not. Airliners now just say it was safe becouse (in this case) Eurocontrol said so. We both know that the relatives don't have much to go on that one, so its good that an investigation has been started to really see if it was safe or not.

What exactly should they do to be "safer" over flashpoints? Airline pilots aren't trained in countermeasures, going defensive, or anything of the matter. Though they could have taken a different route, it wouldn't have mattered much due to the mobile natural of the SAM battery if the rebels really wanted to shoot it down.

Different route, and yes, it would have mattered; they could have flown through Turkey, wich France already did from the day before the crash and the UK did at the day of the crash. They should be more carefull when they consider flying over warzones, nothing more.

[Organized States]

What exactly should they do to be "safer" over flashpoints? Airline pilots aren't trained in countermeasures, going defensive, or anything of the matter. Though they could have taken a different route, it wouldn't have mattered much due to the mobile natural of the SAM battery if the rebels really wanted to shoot it down.

Different route, and yes, it would have mattered; they could have flown through Turkey, wich France already did from the day before the crash and the UK changed to at the day of the crash. They should be more carefull when they consider flying over warzones, nothing more.

Except that had they had gone over Turkey, it would have taken them over Syria, particularly an area known for its heavy use of Air Defense by both Government and Rebel Forces.

[Spirit of Hope]

2&3) Safety from what? The "west" isn't going to invade Russia, and isn't threatening Russia militarily. Economically the EU and Ukraine getting closer isn't a threat either, Russia's natural gas is a big stick and improving economics mean more trade generally which wouldn't hurt Russia. Additionally Russia does't have the right o dictate, or attempt to dictate, policy to another sovereign nation just because it wants a completely useless buffer zone.
4) The US is attempting to lay pressure on Russia for the return of Crimea and to try and end the fighting. It isn't something the US is going to go to war over but at least they are attempting to keep there end of the deal. Russia flagrantly violated it.
6) CUban Missile Crisis? Not that it is really connected to the current discussion.

1) Yes, the west is threatening Russia in this way, and no, Ukraine wasn't a useless buffer zone. I keep it at this, if you want to discuss this more into depths i advice us do to that in another topic since this one has little to do with that issue.

2) Attempting wasn't part of the deal according to you, defending was. US failed in that since Crimea is already part of Russia and most people there are glad that they are part of Russia now. This won't change, and therefor the US violated it aswell, it didn't defended Ukraine in any way, even the "attempts" are just sad.
6) I got that, but i didn't understand what you meant by the last line you wrote earlier, anyhow, you're right, it doesn't really have to do anything with the current topic.

1) How is the west threatening Russia? They have no desire to invade, and would gain nothing from such an action. Any belief that NATO or the "west" is intent on attacking Russia is pure paranoia. The only economic sanctions that have been placed on Russia are result of its current behavior. Ukraine would be a near worthless "buffer", while it will be territory NATO would have to fight through it wouldn't make much of a difference in the long run. It simply doesn't have the economic or military power to alter any war.

2) I re-looked up the treaty. I was wrong it simply calls for Russia, the US, and the UK agreed to respect Ukraine's territory, as it existed at the time. Still doesn't absolve Russia of breaking the treaty rather blatantly.

[Rio Cana]

The Russians do not want a repeat of this.
Video clip only last a little over one minute - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPNsZFxXtxE

[Master Shake]

The Russians do not want a repeat of this.
Video clip only last a little over one minute - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPNsZFxXtxE

Awesome. I now respect our Polish allies even more!

Damn if only Hungary did that....so bad ass you are Poland!

[OMGeverynameistaken]

The Russians do not want a repeat of this.
Video clip only last a little over one minute - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPNsZFxXtxE

I like how they use Napoleonic reenactors throughout the video.

[Torisakia]

So, does this mean that this entire event brings us a step closer to WWIII? Or just another war between Russia and Ukraine? If someone could fill me in on details following what's happened after they found out it was shot down, I'd appreciate it.

[Washington Resistance Army]

So, does this mean that this entire event brings us a step closer to WWIII? Or just another war between Russia and Ukraine? If someone could fill me in on details following what's happened after they found out it was shot down, I'd appreciate it.

The west and Ukraine blame Rebels and Russia for supplying them, Russia makes a counter theory that an SU25 shot down the plane even though SU25's can't fly that high, Russia's theory is thoroughly debunked by anyone with access to the internet, Rebel leaders admit they have Buk AA systems.

[Spirit of Hope]

So, does this mean that this entire event brings us a step closer to WWIII? Or just another war between Russia and Ukraine? If someone could fill me in on details following what's happened after they found out it was shot down, I'd appreciate it.

Basically it was discovered it was shot down. Evidence indicates it was a ground based missile, from within territory controlled by the separatists. There are some phone calls the Ukrainian covet claims are from the rebels, where rebel leaders are talking about how they accidentally shot down a civilian air liner. Those call supposedly also include some russian officials, though what they doesn't really indicate that the officials were involved.

There has been a lot of blaming Putin, but it looks like he, and Russia in general, had little or nothing to do with the incident.

[Torisakia]

So, does this mean that this entire event brings us a step closer to WWIII? Or just another war between Russia and Ukraine? If someone could fill me in on details following what's happened after they found out it was shot down, I'd appreciate it.

The west and Ukraine blame Rebels and Russia for supplying them, Russia makes a counter theory that an SU25 shot down the plane even though SU25's can't fly that high, Russia's theory is thoroughly debunked by anyone with access to the internet, Rebel leaders admit they have Buk AA systems.

So it was Russia and Ukraine's fault?

[Spirit of Hope]

The west and Ukraine blame Rebels and Russia for supplying them, Russia makes a counter theory that an SU25 shot down the plane even though SU25's can't fly that high, Russia's theory is thoroughly debunked by anyone with access to the internet, Rebel leaders admit they have Buk AA systems.

So it was Russia and Ukraine's fault?

Mostly it was an accident that was the rebels fault, the missile launcher itself most likely didn't even come from Russia.