Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Hasmonea]

i guess the illuminati (or whatever name they go by i.e. new world order un freemasons reptilians templars satanists zionists rothschilds global banking cabal) did it to silence the aids researchers on board

i mean after all aids was created by em to cull the world population

Cool story, right?

[Limborg]

How's that? I do support Russia in the conflict, at least for a large part. The people of Donets and Lushansk have the right to their own lands and to follow their own intrests. Ukraine has done nothing to solve it through peacefull means, they chose war over diplomacy. But i'm not denying that one of those militia's there have shot the airplane.

To be honest you are the first pro-Russian I've come across who's not making up weird conspiracy theories to blam someone else for the crash of the MH17 flight.

However, I should now correct myself and say that most pro-Russians or Russofiles in my opinion will make up a conspiracy theory to blame someone else for the crash of this flight and not Russia. I believe that even if there was a camera on that rocket that would show the pro-Russian forces firing that rocket and then it hitting the MH17 flight there would be a conspiracy theory about how that is a video-montage.

As for the pro-Russian separatists... Well that argument about them protecting their own interests could be made anywhere in the world. In fact if you were not satisfied with the course your country is taking or with new legislation being enacted in your country, by that argument you could take up arms and try to secede your plot of land.

Hang on, Pro Russia? That i support Russia, Donetsk and Lushansk in this conflict doesn't mean i'm pro-Russia. Conspiracy theories? not so much, there is still only very little evidence that can be confirmed. Most of it is still speculation.

Besides that, i give you that one, there are alot of people that make up theories based on pretty much nothing. But in the end this counts for both sides.

And that's the right we all have. If it becomes a success depends on your diplomatic and armed strenght. Hell, most nations where born becouse they grew tired of the country they fell under. Look at the US for example. It started out as a shitty rebellion aswell. There's nothing wrong with that. and for Diplomacy, Donetsk and Lushansk have Russia, the US back in the day had France. Those that failed, failed either on military grounds or on diplomatic grounds. Countries come and go, nothing wrong with that, and therefor i support them, just like i support them all (if they are reasonable people, so i wouldn't support ISIS for example)

[Kahlenberg]

The Buk system was also supplied to the rebels by Russia and there is clear evidence of that. There is also clear evidence admitted by themselves that they shot down the airplane.

There are few pieces of evidence to suspect that Russia directly gave or "lost" a heavy SAM system like Buk to the rebels. There are much likelier scenarios in which the separatists claimed to capture at least one Buk-M1 launcher with at least the four missiles that were mounted to it for ammunition, a claim made one month ago (three weeks before the downing of MH17), and subsequently received brief training directly from Russian advisers, or equally former Soviet or Russian or Ukrainian air-defence-trained personnel were introduced to this rebel battery to advise on its use.

Such scenarios also point to the highly likely possibility that, as separatists themselves claimed before deleting references online, they believed they were engaging a Ukrainian An-26 military transport aircraft overflying the rebel-held region.

Footage claiming that the Buk was subsequently shipped "back" over the Russian border is unsubstantiated. It shows a Buk-M1 TELAR, fitted with two missiles, being moved on a civilian low-loader. It is not clear where this is, certainly not clear that it is leaving Ukraine and being sent to Russia.
Claims that it is being sent "back" to Russia are spurious at best, as this presupposes the previous assertion that Russia indeed gave the rebels the system. In which case, a Russian Army military transporter would likely be taking it back over the border.
It is, however, perfectly likely that a civil low-loader in the possession of the rebels was taking the Buk, captured from Ukrainian forces, into Russia to hide it.

The answers to the questions how the Buk got there (captured from Ukraine or supplied by Russia?), who operated it (Russian ex-soldiers or local militiamen - who could be Ukrainian ex-soldiers) and whether the operatives received training or support from f.e. Russia, are now crucial.

[EU Serbia]

In intercepted phone conversations between the pro-Russian rebels and the Russian military officers before the rebels realized that they shot down a civilian jet liner, where they are thanking the Russians for supplying them with the Buk system. Again there was video footage of a Buk system returning back from the rebel held territory on the back of a truck towards the Russian border with one of the missiles missing from it. Clearly they are trying to hide the evidence.

So are you gonna source this?

Sources for the abovementioned:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderic ... terrorism/
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world ... index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/euro ... tists.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... an-3877080

Sources of evidence that the Russians and the pro-Russian rebels tried to hide the evidence:
http://mashable.com/2014/07/20/mh17-black-boxes/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... recording/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -over.html

[Organized States]

So are you gonna source this?

Sources for the abovementioned:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderic ... terrorism/
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world ... index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/euro ... tists.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... an-3877080

Sources of evidence that the Russians and the pro-Russian rebels tried to hide the evidence:
http://mashable.com/2014/07/20/mh17-black-boxes/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... recording/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -over.html

You do realize how easy it is to fake that recording right? Though I'm not saying it isn't real, you should be taking anything the Ukrainian Government with a grain of salt (they have quite a bit to gain from a NATO intervention), Though they have generally been more truthful than RT...

[Imperializt Russia]

So are you gonna source this?

Sources for the abovementioned:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderic ... terrorism/

Kind of glad that Forbes, though it is only an opinion piece, has not used the url for the title of that article.
This incident was not one of terrorism, though was tragic, and sure as hell wasn't the first instance of such.

[EU Serbia]

Sources for the abovementioned:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderic ... terrorism/
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world ... index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/euro ... tists.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... an-3877080

Sources of evidence that the Russians and the pro-Russian rebels tried to hide the evidence:
http://mashable.com/2014/07/20/mh17-black-boxes/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... recording/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -over.html

You do realize how easy it is to fake that recording right? Though I'm not saying it isn't real, you should be taking anything the Ukrainian Government with a grain of salt (they have quite a bit to gain from a NATO intervention), Though they have generally been more truthful than RT...

I also realize how easy it is to say that a recording is fake... Actually it seems even easier than to fake a recording. I mean conspiracy theories can be made out of anything and can be made to work in anyone's favor. I'm trying to look at the evidence supplied and on the one hand we have phone records, video footage, twitter admissions and boasting about the shooting of what the rebels thought was a military jet, and on the other hand we have conspiracy theories... Ummm... I'm gona go with the evidence.

And as for the RT channel... Only watch it if you want to have a good laugh at the nonsence they are trying to serve to their viewers.

[The Alma Mater]

Many other airlines used the exact same route. It's not as if Malaysia Airlines was alone. They followed all of the safety restrictions, such as staying above a restricted altitude, it could have happened to any of the many airlines flying that same route.

But still! They all were told that flying over Ukraine/Russia was a little risky.

So is flying over just about every nation in the region. Avoiding Ukraine to fly over Syria for instance is not that much of an improvement.

[Ducrotia]

But still! They all were told that flying over Ukraine/Russia was a little risky.

So is flying over just about every nation in the region. Avoiding Ukraine to fly over Syria for instance is not that much of an improvement.

Well that's what Malaysian Airlines is doing now.

[Spirit of Hope]

To be honest you are the first pro-Russian I've come across who's not making up weird conspiracy theories to blam someone else for the crash of the MH17 flight.

However, I should now correct myself and say that most pro-Russians or Russofiles in my opinion will make up a conspiracy theory to blame someone else for the crash of this flight and not Russia. I believe that even if there was a camera on that rocket that would show the pro-Russian forces firing that rocket and then it hitting the MH17 flight there would be a conspiracy theory about how that is a video-montage.

As for the pro-Russian separatists... Well that argument about them protecting their own interests could be made anywhere in the world. In fact if you were not satisfied with the course your country is taking or with new legislation being enacted in your country, by that argument you could take up arms and try to secede your plot of land.

Hang on, Pro Russia? That i support Russia, Donetsk and Lushansk in this conflict doesn't mean i'm pro-Russia. Conspiracy theories? not so much, there is still only very little evidence that can be confirmed. Most of it is still speculation.

Besides that, i give you that one, there are alot of people that make up theories based on pretty much nothing. But in the end this counts for both sides.

And that's the right we all have. If it becomes a success depends on your diplomatic and armed strenght. Hell, most nations where born becouse they grew tired of the country they fell under. Look at the US for example. It started out as a shitty rebellion aswell. There's nothing wrong with that. and for Diplomacy, Donetsk and Lushansk have Russia, the US back in the day had France. Those that failed, failed either on military grounds or on diplomatic grounds. Countries come and go, nothing wrong with that, and therefor i support them, just like i support them all (if they are reasonable people, so i wouldn't support ISIS for example)

The problem with Donetsk and Lushansk is there is very little evidence to support the idea that the majority of the average people want to separate. There referendum was a spur of the moment action, carried out with no approval from the legitimate gov't of Ukraine, no real debate, no reliable international observers, and was carried out after armed men had seized control of government buildings.

Let us compare this to Scotland which is having a referendum in a couple of months. They got the approval of the legitimate gov't, they have created ample time for debate, they will have observers to make sure the vote is unbiased and they have laid out rules for how the vote will take place.

Now even the united states created the Continental Congress to address there grievances to the legitimate gov't. It was only when said legitimate gov't refused there demands that it turned into any sort of rebellion to break free. While it is questionable legally they at least tried to talk it out, Donetsk and Lushansk haven't done that yet.

[Gravlen]

CNN reports that the U.S. government has released a map of what it says was the flight's path, the estimated trajectory of the missile, and the site from which the missile was shot.



http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/

[OMGeverynameistaken]

So are you gonna source this?

Sources for the abovementioned:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderic ... terrorism/
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world ... index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/euro ... tists.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... an-3877080

Sources of evidence that the Russians and the pro-Russian rebels tried to hide the evidence:
http://mashable.com/2014/07/20/mh17-black-boxes/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... recording/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -over.html

I don't see anywhere in the conversations above where they implicate Russia, save the final one where they say "we are waiting for Russia to f*** them from their side," which doesn't indicate much. He says "Thank God the Buk arrived yesterday," but that doesn't indicate anything about its origin.

[Limborg]

Hang on, Pro Russia? That i support Russia, Donetsk and Lushansk in this conflict doesn't mean i'm pro-Russia. Conspiracy theories? not so much, there is still only very little evidence that can be confirmed. Most of it is still speculation.

Besides that, i give you that one, there are alot of people that make up theories based on pretty much nothing. But in the end this counts for both sides.

And that's the right we all have. If it becomes a success depends on your diplomatic and armed strenght. Hell, most nations where born becouse they grew tired of the country they fell under. Look at the US for example. It started out as a shitty rebellion aswell. There's nothing wrong with that. and for Diplomacy, Donetsk and Lushansk have Russia, the US back in the day had France. Those that failed, failed either on military grounds or on diplomatic grounds. Countries come and go, nothing wrong with that, and therefor i support them, just like i support them all (if they are reasonable people, so i wouldn't support ISIS for example)

The problem with Donetsk and Lushansk is there is very little evidence to support the idea that the majority of the average people want to separate. There referendum was a spur of the moment action, carried out with no approval from the legitimate gov't of Ukraine, no real debate, no reliable international observers, and was carried out after armed men had seized control of government buildings.

Let us compare this to Scotland which is having a referendum in a couple of months. They got the approval of the legitimate gov't, they have created ample time for debate, they will have observers to make sure the vote is unbiased and they have laid out rules for how the vote will take place.

Now even the united states created the Continental Congress to address there grievances to the legitimate gov't. It was only when said legitimate gov't refused there demands that it turned into any sort of rebellion to break free. While it is questionable legally they at least tried to talk it out, Donetsk and Lushansk haven't done that yet.

Since when should they need approval from Kiev to hold a referendum? They have all the right to hold a referendum, with or without the support of Kiev. True, the election was a mess, but what do you expect in a warzone? Ukriane targeted votingstations and trucks carrying votes. Anyhow, Ukraine had enough chances to settle the issue peacefully, they chose for war and so Donetsk and Lushansk have the right to defend themselves from Ukrainian agression.
The armed men that seized government buildings came as a respond to Kiev protestors taking power and ordering crackdowns on protests in the east.

Donetsk and Lushansk did wanted to talk, but Kiev didn't.

[EU Serbia]

Sources for the abovementioned:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderic ... terrorism/
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world ... index.html
http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/euro ... tists.html
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... an-3877080

Sources of evidence that the Russians and the pro-Russian rebels tried to hide the evidence:
http://mashable.com/2014/07/20/mh17-black-boxes/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... recording/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -over.html

I don't see anywhere in the conversations above where they implicate Russia, save the final one where they say "we are waiting for Russia to f*** them from their side," which doesn't indicate much. He says "Thank God the Buk arrived yesterday," but that doesn't indicate anything about its origin.

Right, I guess that when talking to the Russians he's thanking god that South Africa sent them the Buk missile system.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I don't see anywhere in the conversations above where they implicate Russia, save the final one where they say "we are waiting for Russia to f*** them from their side," which doesn't indicate much. He says "Thank God the Buk arrived yesterday," but that doesn't indicate anything about its origin.

Right, I guess that when talking to the Russians he's thanking god that South Africa sent them the Buk missile system.

Or he's glad that the captured system, which we know the separatists had because they bragged about capturing it, arrived.

[Grand Russian Federation]

I saw a video that someone took where the plane fell down.. Just fell down. No smoke or fire seen. It just fell. And, the thing is, the smoke when it did crash looked exactly like the smoke news places picked up.

[Imperializt Russia]

I saw a video that someone took where the plane fell down.. Just fell down. No smoke or fire seen. It just fell. And, the thing is, the smoke when it did crash looked exactly like the smoke news places picked up.

Care to source that video for us?

[Grand Russian Federation]

I saw a video that someone took where the plane fell down.. Just fell down. No smoke or fire seen. It just fell. And, the thing is, the smoke when it did crash looked exactly like the smoke news places picked up.

Care to source that video for us?

Nope, because someone else showed it to me and I have no intention of looking all over Odnaklasniki to find it.

[EU Serbia]

Right, I guess that when talking to the Russians he's thanking god that South Africa sent them the Buk missile system.

Or he's glad that the captured system, which we know the separatists had because they bragged about capturing it, arrived.

Right, so I guess they had to thank god that the system they claimed to have in possession since late June arrived to them early in the morning more than two weeks later? Even if that version is true, what are Russian military officers doing consulting with the rebels from a different country? Didn't they say they wanted to see peace? Or is the peace they're looking for different than the peace the majority of Ukrainians are looking for when they want to see their country in the EU? However there is overwhelming evidence that Russia is supplying rebels with weapons and military training and that Russian military personnel is crossing the border into Ukraine to fight on the pro-Russian rebel side... Kind of like they did in Crimea when they claimed that they didn't have any troops in Crimea and later said that it was them all along.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Or he's glad that the captured system, which we know the separatists had because they bragged about capturing it, arrived.

Right, so I guess they had to thank god that the system they claimed to have in possession since late June arrived to them early in the morning more than two weeks later? Even if that version is true, what are Russian military officers doing consulting with the rebels from a different country? Didn't they say they wanted to see peace? Or is the peace they're looking for different than the peace the majority of Ukrainians are looking for when they want to see their country in the EU? However there is overwhelming evidence that Russia is supplying rebels with weapons and military training and that Russian military personnel is crossing the border into Ukraine to fight on the pro-Russian rebel side... Kind of like they did in Crimea when they claimed that they didn't have any troops in Crimea and later said that it was them all along.

I know this may shock you, but sometimes, during war, people move things around.

It seems that the call was made in a bit of a panic. I doubt the separatists are particularly politically experienced, and the tone is very much "holy shit we just blew up some civilians what do we do?" To which the Russian officer's (paraphrased) response appears to be "you done fucked up, boy."

It's been noted in the other topic that Russia has been decreasing their support and distancing themselves from the the separatists lately. As I said, it seemed like Putin was going to let things go, but wanted to do so gradually to avoid embarrassing Russia. Instead, some idiot went and blew up an airliner and brought this back to the media's attention right at the moment when they were starting to look for their next big story.

[Vamtrl]

Care to source that video for us?

Nope, because someone else showed it to me and I have no intention of looking all over Odnaklasniki to find it.

So you lying. Okay.

[Grand Russian Federation]

Nope, because someone else showed it to me and I have no intention of looking all over Odnaklasniki to find it.

So you lying. Okay.

Meh. It's more trustworthy than your western news anyways. I wouldn't have come to this thread if I had nothing to contribute.

[Kahlenberg]

Nope, because someone else showed it to me and I have no intention of looking all over Odnaklasniki to find it.

So you lying. Okay.

I know the vid he refers to. It indeed shows no smoke, but it is absolutely unclear whether it is a vid of this plane crashing of of some other plane.

[Grand Russian Federation]

So you lying. Okay.

I know the vid he refers to. It indeed shows no smoke, but it is absolutely unclear whether it is a vid of this plane crashing of of some other plane.

Well, the cloud of smoke above it really looked similar from a long range shot of it I saw.

[EU Serbia]

Right, so I guess they had to thank god that the system they claimed to have in possession since late June arrived to them early in the morning more than two weeks later? Even if that version is true, what are Russian military officers doing consulting with the rebels from a different country? Didn't they say they wanted to see peace? Or is the peace they're looking for different than the peace the majority of Ukrainians are looking for when they want to see their country in the EU? However there is overwhelming evidence that Russia is supplying rebels with weapons and military training and that Russian military personnel is crossing the border into Ukraine to fight on the pro-Russian rebel side... Kind of like they did in Crimea when they claimed that they didn't have any troops in Crimea and later said that it was them all along.

I know this may shock you, but sometimes, during war, people move things around.

It seems that the call was made in a bit of a panic. I doubt the separatists are particularly politically experienced, and the tone is very much "holy shit we just blew up some civilians what do we do?" To which the Russian officer's (paraphrased) response appears to be "you done fucked up, boy."

It's been noted in the other topic that Russia has been decreasing their support and distancing themselves from the the separatists lately. As I said, it seemed like Putin was going to let things go, but wanted to do so gradually to avoid embarrassing Russia. Instead, some idiot went and blew up an airliner and brought this back to the media's attention right at the moment when they were starting to look for their next big story.

Sure, they're thanking the Russian officers that the rebels moved the missile system. Maybe we should all call Russia to thank them when something moves that the Russians "didn't" have anything to do with.

I agree with you that when the rebels found out that they have mistakingly shot down a civilian jet liner they were in panic and thus called their consultants from Russia and that the Russians also realized what this meant. However I don't think Russians were as concerned about the rebels as they were about saving their own face, because they knew what this meant for them.