Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[OMGeverynameistaken]

You don't have to be at 33,000 to engage it >.<

Service ceiling: 7,000 m[97] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su- ... duction.29

And the R-60 missile has a range of 8km up to a height of 66,000 feet. The R-73, its successor, has a 20-40km range (Depending on model,) although I don't know how common those are in the Ukrainian air force.

I don't personally believe that the the flight was shot down by a fighter, Ukrainian or not, but it's not impossible for an Su-25 to reach out and touch something at that distance.

[Oaledonia]

impossible for an Su-25 to reach out and touch something at that distance.

It is, because we just fucking explained how even with the best radar available, the nose configuration and HUD wouldn't allow for a lock at any of the possible angles.

[Washington Resistance Army]

snip

Just saying, if praising Hitler can do all this crazy shit we should probably all hop on the Banderist train.

[Korva]

impossible for an Su-25 to reach out and touch something at that distance.

It is, because we just fucking explained how even with the best radar available, the nose configuration and HUD wouldn't allow for a lock at any of the possible angles.

What if the missiles run on solid fascism and powdered Slav blood?

[Imperializt Russia]

You don't have to be at 33,000 to engage it >.<

Upon further inquiry, Su-25M1 doesn't even have an air-scanning radar.
The M1 upgrade was an effort that allowed it capability to drop bombs without visually aiming them.

Use of a visual bombsight was still a requirement for Ukrainian Su-25 aircraft before the M1 upgrade, of which there may be about four in service.

Service ceiling: 7,000 m[97] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su- ... duction.29

And the R-60 missile has a range of 8km up to a height of 66,000 feet. The R-73, its successor, has a 20-40km range (Depending on model,) although I don't know how common those are in the Ukrainian air force.

I don't personally believe that the the flight was shot down by a fighter, Ukrainian or not, but it's not impossible for an Su-25 to reach out and touch something at that distance.

The seeker head has to be able to see and find the aircraft first. Without a radar, there's no cueing information. Without being relatively close, the seeker head, which has a very narrow angle of observation for a variety of reasons, will not be able to see an aircraft three to five kilometres above its line of sight without a hilariously ambitious climbing manoeuvre.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

impossible for an Su-25 to reach out and touch something at that distance.

It is, because we just fucking explained how even with the best radar available, the nose configuration and HUD wouldn't allow for a lock at any of the possible angles.

It doesn't need a radar lock. The R-60 uses infrared guidance. While you CAN use radar to gain an initial lock for heat seeking missiles, they don't require it. You can just point the nose of the plane in the general direction of your target.

However, the damage done doesn't seem consistent with the type of warhead used by the R-60.

The seeker head has to be able to see and find the aircraft first. Without a radar, there's no cueing information. Without being relatively close, the seeker head, which has a very narrow angle of observation for a variety of reasons, will not be able to see an aircraft three to five kilometres above its line of sight without a hilariously ambitious climbing manoeuvre.

The R-60, as with most infrared seeking missiles, has a gimbal mount for the sensor. I'm not familiar with the systems in question, but I know that some missiles allow the pilot to guide the missile's general course until it can achieve a lock.

[Imperializt Russia]

A three kilometre climb, minimum best case, will seriously kill its range. It will be acting in a tail-chaser fashion, before somehow overtaking the aircraft and striking the cockpit which will have a neutral thermal signature, compared to the two whacking great turbofan exhausts it has to fly through to get there.

[Oaledonia]

A three kilometre climb, minimum best case, will seriously kill its range. It will be acting in a tail-chaser fashion, before somehow overtaking the aircraft and striking the cockpit which will have a neutral thermal signature, compared to the two whacking great turbofan exhausts it has to fly through to get there.

Well you're wrong, cuz I said so

[OMGeverynameistaken]

A three kilometre climb, minimum best case, will seriously kill its range. It will be acting in a tail-chaser fashion, before somehow overtaking the aircraft and striking the cockpit which will have a neutral thermal signature, compared to the two whacking great turbofan exhausts it has to fly through to get there.

As I said, the damage doesn't appear consistent with an R-60, which uses an continuous rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding-rod_warhead) system, not a traditional fragmentation warhead. Although it's really hard to say given how broken up the plane is.

I am saying that it is technically possible for an Su-25 to shoot down a passenger jet in the scenario in question. Particularly since Ukraine has access to R-73s. I am not saying that it actually happened. I have made my position clear previously, that the most likely scenario to my mind is the separatists, using captured a Ukrainian Buk system, shot the plane down accidentally.

[Lemanrussland]

A three kilometre climb, minimum best case, will seriously kill its range. It will be acting in a tail-chaser fashion, before somehow overtaking the aircraft and striking the cockpit which will have a neutral thermal signature, compared to the two whacking great turbofan exhausts it has to fly through to get there.

As I said, the damage doesn't appear consistent with an R-60, which uses an continuous rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding-rod_warhead) system, not a traditional fragmentation warhead. Although it's really hard to say given how broken up the plane is.

I am saying that it is technically possible for an Su-25 to shoot down a passenger jet in the scenario in question. Particularly since Ukraine has access to R-73s. I am not saying that it actually happened. I have made my position clear previously, that the most likely scenario to my mind is the separatists, using captured a Ukrainian Buk system, shot the plane down accidentally.

No, the Dutch killed all the passengers, loaded the dead bodies on the plane, and then crashed the plane so the Banderovite fascists could blame the glorious People's Self Defense Forces.

[Ducrotia]

As I said, the damage doesn't appear consistent with an R-60, which uses an continuous rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding-rod_warhead) system, not a traditional fragmentation warhead. Although it's really hard to say given how broken up the plane is.

I am saying that it is technically possible for an Su-25 to shoot down a passenger jet in the scenario in question. Particularly since Ukraine has access to R-73s. I am not saying that it actually happened. I have made my position clear previously, that the most likely scenario to my mind is the separatists, using captured a Ukrainian Buk system, shot the plane down accidentally.

No, the Dutch killed all the passengers, loaded the dead bodies on the plane, and then crashed the plane so the Banderovite fascists could blame the glorious People's Self Defense Forces.

Yes. That is definitely what happened.

[Kahlenberg]

A three kilometre climb, minimum best case, will seriously kill its range. It will be acting in a tail-chaser fashion, before somehow overtaking the aircraft and striking the cockpit which will have a neutral thermal signature, compared to the two whacking great turbofan exhausts it has to fly through to get there.

As I said, the damage doesn't appear consistent with an R-60, which uses an continuous rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding-rod_warhead) system, not a traditional fragmentation warhead. Although it's really hard to say given how broken up the plane is.

I am saying that it is technically possible for an Su-25 to shoot down a passenger jet in the scenario in question. Particularly since Ukraine has access to R-73s. I am not saying that it actually happened. I have made my position clear previously, that the most likely scenario to my mind is the separatists, using captured a Ukrainian Buk system, shot the plane down accidentally.

Even though I am not sure who to believe on technicalities anymore, a military expert today claimed that the Buk system is fit for launching missiles that explode before impact, causing shrapnel damage to the plane. This would explain the many holes in the found cockpit and left wing.

[Oaledonia]

I am saying that it is technically possible for an Su-25 to shoot down a passenger jet in the scenario in question.

And he's saying that the rocket doesn't have the fuel.

[Souriya Al-Assad]

I also wish to say the claim regarding Novorossiya being responsible utilising a Buk is impossible. Does anyone know how long it takes before someone is disciplined enough realistically speaking to even be able to know how all these buttons work?

Someone on Twitter pointed out it might require at least two years of experience around this machinery. Novorossiya has barely been around for a few months. An impossible notion to accuse them for launching such a missile.

[Korva]

I also wish to say the claim regarding Novorossiya being responsible utilising a Buk is impossible. Does anyone know how long it takes before someone is disciplined enough realistically speaking to even be able to know how all these buttons work?

Someone on Twitter pointed out it might require at least two years of experience around this machinery. Novorossiya has barely been around for a few months. An impossible notion to accuse them for launching such a missile.

You are not a clever man.

[Imperializt Russia]

As I said, the damage doesn't appear consistent with an R-60, which uses an continuous rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding-rod_warhead) system, not a traditional fragmentation warhead. Although it's really hard to say given how broken up the plane is.

I am saying that it is technically possible for an Su-25 to shoot down a passenger jet in the scenario in question. Particularly since Ukraine has access to R-73s. I am not saying that it actually happened. I have made my position clear previously, that the most likely scenario to my mind is the separatists, using captured a Ukrainian Buk system, shot the plane down accidentally.

Even though I am not sure who to believe on technicalities anymore, a military expert today claimed that the Buk system is fit for launching missiles that explode before impact, causing shrapnel damage to the plane. This would explain the many holes in the found cockpit and left wing.

What do you mean "fit for"?
That's been the design of the SA-11 and SA-17 since, like, always. I do not understand why this was ever in question.

[Kahlenberg]

Even though I am not sure who to believe on technicalities anymore, a military expert today claimed that the Buk system is fit for launching missiles that explode before impact, causing shrapnel damage to the plane. This would explain the many holes in the found cockpit and left wing.

What do you mean "fit for"?
That's been the design of the SA-11 and SA-17 since, like, always. I do not understand why this was ever in question.

Ah, I misread the initial post I replied to. Never mind, never mind, nothing to see here.

[Oaledonia]

I also wish to say the claim regarding Novorossiya being responsible utilising a Buk is impossible. Does anyone know how long it takes before someone is disciplined enough realistically speaking to even be able to know how all these buttons work?

Someone on Twitter pointed out it might require at least two years of experience around this machinery. Novorossiya has barely been around for a few months. An impossible notion to accuse them for launching such a missile.

Twitter can lie too

[Souriya Al-Assad]

I also wish to say the claim regarding Novorossiya being responsible utilising a Buk is impossible. Does anyone know how long it takes before someone is disciplined enough realistically speaking to even be able to know how all these buttons work?

Someone on Twitter pointed out it might require at least two years of experience around this machinery. Novorossiya has barely been around for a few months. An impossible notion to accuse them for launching such a missile.

You are not a clever man.

I merely made a good point to consider here.

How long exactly does it take for someone to understand how the control panel of a Buk works? Does anyone here know?

[Ducrotia]

You are not a clever man.

I merely made a good point to consider here.

How long exactly does it take for someone to understand how the control panel of a Buk works? Does anyone here know?

I haven't found an exact amount of time, but you are right about it taking a long time to learn how to use it.
Source: http://www.ibtimes.com/shooting-down-mh17-how-hard-would-it-be-take-down-passenger-jet-buk-missile-system-1633138

[OMGeverynameistaken]

As I said, the damage doesn't appear consistent with an R-60, which uses an continuous rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding-rod_warhead) system, not a traditional fragmentation warhead. Although it's really hard to say given how broken up the plane is.

I am saying that it is technically possible for an Su-25 to shoot down a passenger jet in the scenario in question. Particularly since Ukraine has access to R-73s. I am not saying that it actually happened. I have made my position clear previously, that the most likely scenario to my mind is the separatists, using captured a Ukrainian Buk system, shot the plane down accidentally.

Even though I am not sure who to believe on technicalities anymore, a military expert today claimed that the Buk system is fit for launching missiles that explode before impact, causing shrapnel damage to the plane. This would explain the many holes in the found cockpit and left wing.

Most AAA missiles are proximity fused. Getting a direct hit against a (fairly) small target moving at very high speed is a difficult prospect.

I also wish to say the claim regarding Novorossiya being responsible utilising a Buk is impossible. Does anyone know how long it takes before someone is disciplined enough realistically speaking to even be able to know how all these buttons work?

Someone on Twitter pointed out it might require at least two years of experience around this machinery. Novorossiya has barely been around for a few months. An impossible notion to accuse them for launching such a missile.

Both Russia and Ukraine utilize conscription. It's quite likely that the separatists have multiple people who were assigned to AAA units in their service period.

[Occupied Deutschland]

You are not a clever man.

I merely made a good point to consider here.

How long exactly does it take for someone to understand how the control panel of a Buk works? Does anyone here know?

I'd imagine less than the 2-3 years (almost) every male over the age of 40 received serving in the armed forces of the USSR.
...
In fact, considering Ukraine itself had conscription until 2013, I'd imagine people trained to operate Buk's or familiar with how to make them work via manual -reading would be quite commonplace in Ukraine.

And that's ignoring the possibility of Russian assistance.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

As I said, the damage doesn't appear consistent with an R-60, which uses an continuous rod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding-rod_warhead) system, not a traditional fragmentation warhead. Although it's really hard to say given how broken up the plane is.

I am saying that it is technically possible for an Su-25 to shoot down a passenger jet in the scenario in question. Particularly since Ukraine has access to R-73s. I am not saying that it actually happened. I have made my position clear previously, that the most likely scenario to my mind is the separatists, using captured a Ukrainian Buk system, shot the plane down accidentally.

No, the Dutch killed all the passengers, loaded the dead bodies on the plane, and then crashed the plane so the Banderovite fascists could blame the glorious People's Self Defense Forces.

This situation is such a clusterfuck I'm not even sure who we're satirizing anymore.

EDIT:
@ Occupied Deutschland
Ukraine re-instituted conscription shortly after they got rid of it. Same year, I believe.

[Imperializt Russia]

No, the Dutch killed all the passengers, loaded the dead bodies on the plane, and then crashed the plane so the Banderovite fascists could blame the glorious People's Self Defense Forces.

This situation is such a clusterfuck I'm not even sure who we're satirizing anymore.

EDIT:
@ Occupied Deutschland
Ukraine re-instituted conscription shortly after they got rid of it. Same year, I believe.

Due to the civil disturbances, I believe.

[Souriya Al-Assad]

I merely made a good point to consider here.

How long exactly does it take for someone to understand how the control panel of a Buk works? Does anyone here know?

I'd imagine less than the 2-3 years (almost) every male over the age of 40 received serving in the armed forces of the USSR.
...
In fact, considering Ukraine itself had conscription until 2013, I'd imagine people trained to operate Buk's or familiar with how to make them work via manual -reading would be quite commonplace in Ukraine.

And that's ignoring the possibility of Russian assistance.

However are conscripted personnel even likely to be assigned to complex equipment such as long range surface-to-air missiles? I see that most likely being something a standing force of long term professionals would be assigned to.

I merely made a good point to consider here.

How long exactly does it take for someone to understand how the control panel of a Buk works? Does anyone here know?

I haven't found an exact amount of time, but you are right about it taking a long time to learn how to use it.
Source: http://www.ibtimes.com/shooting-down-mh17-how-hard-would-it-be-take-down-passenger-jet-buk-missile-system-1633138

Thank you. This is a far fairer assessment than the usual "Blame Novorossiya, Blame Russia" for everything that mass media is peddling around.