Malaysian Airliner crashes in Ukraine

[Occupied Deutschland]

The evidence indicates (1) that the order to shoot it down came from the Ukrainian Interior Ministry (ie, Svoboda/Right Sector who jointly control that Ministry, operating under the unofficial Julia Tymoshenko command as opposed to the official orders of Poroshenko).

The flight was diverted from its original route to fly over Donetsk, thus allowing Svoboda/Right Sector to attribute blame to the free republics when it was attacked.

There is also confirmation on twitter by a Spanish ATC at Kiev Borisol airport (@spainbuca, now been silenced which indicates his reports were accurate) that the flight was being escorted by Ukrainian fighters and that the military knew in advance about the attack.(2)

1) Oh this should be good. Three paragraphs beginning with 'The evidence indicates' with no links or sources provided. I wait with baited breath for the reliable and hard-hitting information we're sure to receive.
2)

[Tahar Joblis]

See this is why I take a grain of salt with my mother... she listens to conservative websites and she told me that over 20 Americans were on board. I guess that was BS but certainly many US citizens are angry over this. It just is so tragic, but I'm not quick to blame Russia or the Ukraine.

Why would it matter that there are americans on board rather than Dutch, malaysians, or whatever else?

They're still humans?

It's about finding a connection.

Humans are sort of tribal like that. If we think we might know someone personally who was on that plane, or have met them, or know someone who knows someone, we're going to key up a lot more. Or maybe we're related to that someone, even if we don't know them personally.

Some of that is emotional damage control. This year so far, several tens of thousands of people have died in the Syrian civil war, many of them civilians. This is spilling over into Iraq. It may have some very striking long-term consequences.

Several thousand have died in an Islamist insurgency in Nigeria (Boko Haram, which you may have heard of because they abducted some schoolgirls - you might not have heard about all the killing, though). There's ongoing violence in the Central African Republic - over a thousand dead this year. You may remember the horrific reports of a guy nicknamed "Mad Dog" publicly cannibalizing the bodies of lynched Muslims? That's in the CAR.

Lower-grade violence continues in Libya and Somalia, neither of which shows signs of being likely to maintain a stable central government in the near future. I'll be honest: I've barely even paid any attention to either this whole year. I didn't even realize Libya hadn't settled down until it came up on NSG recently.

It's exhausting. There's a lot of tragedy we could be actively caring about. There's a lot we usually put out of mind, and if we didn't, we'd probably spent most of our time in dejected horror. So - selfishly, myopically, yes, but understandably - we focus on things that seem more relevant, and things we have a closer connection to.

This is a tragedy. All the more because nobody really has a good reason to want to shoot down a Malaysian plane with mostly Dutch passengers. All the more because it was an act of violence and not just some random accident. But some people will have trouble caring as much or for as long if they can't find a personal connection somewhere to hold onto.

[Ifreann]

The evidence indicates that the order to shoot it down came from the Ukrainian Interior Ministry (ie, Svoboda/Right Sector who jointly control that Ministry, operating under the unofficial Julia Tymoshenko command as opposed to the official orders of Poroshenko).

The flight was diverted from its original route to fly over Donetsk, thus allowing Svoboda/Right Sector to attribute blame to the free republics when it was attacked.

There is also confirmation on twitter by a Spanish ATC at Kiev Borisol airport (@spainbuca, now been silenced which indicates his reports were accurate) that the flight was being escorted by Ukrainian fighters and that the military knew in advance about the attack.

Can you give sources for this?

I can't imagine that it would be acceptable to post his rectum.

[Punkvania]

Can you give sources for this?

I can't imagine that it would be acceptable to post his rectum.

I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've been able to smile in this entire thread. I'm so glad you keep it clean.

[Tahar Joblis]

The evidence indicates that the order to shoot it down came from the Ukrainian Interior Ministry (ie, Svoboda/Right Sector who jointly control that Ministry, operating under the unofficial Julia Tymoshenko command as opposed to the official orders of Poroshenko).

The flight was diverted from its original route to fly over Donetsk, thus allowing Svoboda/Right Sector to attribute blame to the free republics when it was attacked.

There is also confirmation on twitter by a Spanish ATC at Kiev Borisol airport (@spainbuca, now been silenced which indicates his reports were accurate) that the flight was being escorted by Ukrainian fighters and that the military knew in advance about the attack.

And then they blame it to the separatists, even though they don't have the artillery, Buk 11.

As the BBC has noted, separatists were loudly announcing that they had such systems operational not very long ago. I quote from here:

19:00: A tweet (in Russian) from a key Twitter account used by pro-Russian separatists, in which they claim to have captured a Buk surface-to-air missile system, has now been deleted, BBC Monitoring observes. Ukrainians say the Malaysian plane could have been downed with a Buk, but pro-Russian rebels have now denied they have it.

[Tasmovova]

The airline needs to be blacklisted immediately by the EU until the cause is found. Nobody knows what happened to MH370 and now this with MH17. It's far too easy to point fingers at Ukraine and Russia but what are the chances of another Malaysian Airliner casualty? So many questions can be asked at this time.

[Langor Empire]

Ukrainian Persecutor General has stated that the rebels did not capture Buks or C-300. The following link is in Russian but you should be able to use Google Translate or check theInternet about that.
http://itar-tass.com/proisshestviya/1326489

[Punkvania]

The airline needs to be blacklisted immediately by the EU until the cause is found. Nobody knows what happened to MH370 and now this with MH17. It's far too easy to point fingers at Ukraine and Russia but what are the chances of another Malaysian Airliner casualty? So many questions can be asked at this time.

Well it isn't a coincidence, someone definitely pulled the trigger and killed nearly 200 people this time.

[L Ron Cupboard]

Obama has just called for a ceasefire so a proper investigation can take place. Unless I misheard he also said it looked like MH17 was brought down by a missile fired from rebel held area. Presumably some satellite evidence or similar for this.

[Werdan Federation]

The airline needs to be blacklisted immediately by the EU until the cause is found. Nobody knows what happened to MH370 and now this with MH17. It's far too easy to point fingers at Ukraine and Russia but what are the chances of another Malaysian Airliner casualty? So many questions can be asked at this time.

Well it isn't a coincidence, someone definitely pulled the trigger and killed nearly 200 people this time.

The same happened in Ukraine in 2001 when they shot down a plane from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk, killing about 80 people. They were holding exercises at the time.

[Tasmovova]

The airline needs to be blacklisted immediately by the EU until the cause is found. Nobody knows what happened to MH370 and now this with MH17. It's far too easy to point fingers at Ukraine and Russia but what are the chances of another Malaysian Airliner casualty? So many questions can be asked at this time.

Well it isn't a coincidence, someone definitely pulled the trigger and killed nearly 200 people this time.

RT reported 295 dead. Surely it cannot be coincidental? All nations should not let Malaysian aircraft enter its airspace until questions are answered.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Well it isn't a coincidence, someone definitely pulled the trigger and killed nearly 200 people this time.

RT reported 295 dead. Surely it cannot be coincidental? All nations should not let Malaysian aircraft enter its airspace until questions are answered.

Well I honestly have to say that at least your blame scapegoat is original. I haven't heard "Malaysian conspiracy!" before, and Im amused. It seems most people are either "OMG ebul ruzzian Putin anti-gay fascists brought it down! MOAR SANCTIONS FOR RUZZIA!!!" or "OMG NATO-backed Ukrainian fascist puppet regime brought it down! KEEP OUT OF UKRAINE HATO!!!"

Seriously, assuming the reports are true about the rebel commander publicly bragging about the shoot-down, it just seems an unfortunate case of mistaken identity.
The rebels thought it was a Ukrainian military aircraft, and fired on it as they would a military cargo or transport plane.

[L Ron Cupboard]

All nations should not let Malaysian aircraft enter its airspace until questions are answered.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[JesusOfNazareth]

I had the news on the television as it was happening. The simplest explanation is the likely one.

The pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists claimed to have shot down a nationalist Ukrainian cargo plane at the same time the airliner was shot down and the separatists fucked up.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-russian-ukrainian-rebel-leader-claims-shoot-down-of-malaysia-airlines-jet/

[Tasmovova]

All nations should not let Malaysian aircraft enter its airspace until questions are answered.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

How does it not? Malaysian Airlines to be more precise. MH17 was operating above closed airspace.

[Herrebrugh]

The airline needs to be blacklisted immediately by the EU until the cause is found. Nobody knows what happened to MH370 and now this with MH17. It's far too easy to point fingers at Ukraine and Russia but what are the chances of another Malaysian Airliner casualty? So many questions can be asked at this time.

I'm 99% sure Malaysia Airlines is simply having it's most unlucky year ever.

[Ifreann]

All nations should not let Malaysian aircraft enter its airspace until questions are answered.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

We must shut down all Malaysian air travel until they make their planes invulnerable to missiles.

---

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

How does it not? Malaysian Airlines to be more precise. MH17 was operating above closed airspace.

No it wasn't.

[Wolfenium]

The airline needs to be blacklisted immediately by the EU until the cause is found. Nobody knows what happened to MH370 and now this with MH17. It's far too easy to point fingers at Ukraine and Russia but what are the chances of another Malaysian Airliner casualty? So many questions can be asked at this time.

I'm 99% sure Malaysia Airlines is simply having it's most unlucky year ever.

Make that 100%. No single airliner has ever had two tragedies in a space of mere months, both with different circumstances but similarly heavy magnitudes.

[L Ron Cupboard]

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

How does it not? Malaysian Airlines to be more precise. MH17 was operating above closed airspace.

Above not in... and what the hell does that have to do with countries not letting Malaysian aircraft enter their airspace? The two crashes have completely different causes, so it is pure coincidence that they both happen to belong to the same carrier.

[Tasmovova]

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

We must shut down all Malaysian air travel until they make their planes invulnerable to missiles.

---

How does it not? Malaysian Airlines to be more precise. MH17 was operating above closed airspace.

No it wasn't.

Flight global reported it was flying at 33,000ft where Ukrainian authorities closed airspace up to 32,000ft.

[Tasmovova]

How does it not? Malaysian Airlines to be more precise. MH17 was operating above closed airspace.

Above not in... and what the hell does that have to do with countries not letting Malaysian aircraft enter their airspace? The two crashes have completely different causes, so it is pure coincidence that they both happen to belong to the same carrier.

What were the causes then?

[The Isles of New Babylon]

L Ron Cupboard wrote:

Tasmovova wrote:
How does it not? Malaysian Airlines to be more precise. MH17 was operating above closed airspace.

Above not in... and what the hell does that have to do with countries not letting Malaysian aircraft enter their airspace? The two crashes have completely different causes, so it is pure coincidence that they both happen to belong to the same carrier.

MH370 probably crashed as a result of a techincal fault on the plane while MH17 was shot down by a SAM.

[Tasmovova]

MH370 probably crashed as a result of a techincal fault on the plane while MH17 was shot down by a SAM.

Obama just said separatist rebels had shot it down.

[Verdo-Releignia]

Sum Ting Wong
Wi Tu Lo
Ho Lee Fuk
Bang Ding Ow

[Wind in the Willows]

It's pissing me off that everyone seems to be blaming Russia or the rebels at the moment. How do you know it was them? Let the authorities investigate before accusing anyone.