Communism as a philosophical disease

[Marcunia]

i literally choked on air when i saw this thread


communism, in it's ideal, treats all people as equals, and works to establish a system in which the people govern themselves collectively. It fails because people are greedy in their nature.

the idea of communism, IMO, is great.

i haven't read the manifesto, if i'm incorrect, please kindly correct me, or kindly leave me alone

The idea is great, but goes against human nature and is, hence, impossible. There is a extremely small chance that society will at one point collectively evolve to the point that we have passed our primal instincts, but that is almost impossible. Perhaps it is something which could be established for a period of time within a small group, but it certainly could not work on entire nations. Things are simply too complex at that point.

[The New Sea Territory]

Exactly why anarchism is better. Trying to form a stateless, classless society by replacing the current society with a statist, hierarchical Leninist state is hypocritical.

It's also harder to maintain anarchy though.

It's a very different from defending a state, and most examples we have of it (Shinmin Region, Free Territory, Catalonia and Aragon) were born during civil wars and lost due to the fact that they other side either had international support or had access to better weapons.

I also find violent revolution to rarely be justified, and propose change through education and nonviolent means. Those actions are easier to justify and put into action. Back to the point, maintaining anarchy is not hard so long as a standing militia exists and the region the anarchy is in is not in the midst of civil strife. For example, if France were to become an anarchist, it would most likely fair way better than Catalonia, due to the violence at the time. The previous attempts at anarchism are comparable to trying to implement such a system in Iraq, Ukraine or Syria right now.

[Ucropi]

Communism is a philosophical vaccine. Capitalism is the disease because no one benefits from a disease but the disease.

[The New Sea Territory]

i literally choked on air when i saw this thread


communism, in it's ideal, treats all people as equals, and works to establish a system in which the people govern themselves collectively. It fails because people are greedy in their nature.

the idea of communism, IMO, is great.

i haven't read the manifesto, if i'm incorrect, please kindly correct me, or kindly leave me alone

The idea is great, but goes against human nature and is, hence, impossible. There is a extremely small chance that society will at one point collectively evolve to the point that we have passed our primal instincts, but that is almost impossible. Perhaps it is something which could be established for a period of time within a small group, but it certainly could not work on entire nations. Things are simply too complex at that point.

Your Logical Fallacy is...

[Marcunia]

The idea is great, but goes against human nature and is, hence, impossible. There is a extremely small chance that society will at one point collectively evolve to the point that we have passed our primal instincts, but that is almost impossible. Perhaps it is something which could be established for a period of time within a small group, but it certainly could not work on entire nations. Things are simply too complex at that point.

Your Logical Fallacy is...

I have not once stated that human nature is good, nor that it is permanent. I have actually clearly stated that nature evolves and that thus human nature could at one point evolve. I have also repeated many times in the past that i generally like the idea of a true anarcho-communist world, but that it is not something we could possibly grasp with the way we currently work. Try not to misinterpret my words.

[The New Sea Territory]

Communism is a philosophical vaccine. Capitalism is the disease because no one benefits from a disease but the disease.

Actually, wrong. Capitalist systems are much better at innovating due to competition. They are also much better at producing strong militaries, and, at least laissez-faire systems, are much better at protecting individual rights versus the collective.

Not denying that they are hierarchical and archaic, but they due have benefits. Do those benefits outweigh costs? That's up to you.

[The New Sea Territory]

Your Logical Fallacy is...

I have not once stated that human nature is good, nor that it is permanent. I have actually clearly stated that nature evolves and that thus human nature could at one point evolve. I have also repeated many times in the past that i generally like the idea of a true anarcho-communist world, but that it is not something we could possibly grasp with the way we currently work. Try not to misinterpret my words.

You are appealing to nature by saying that human nature dictates communism is impossible.

I say again, "Your Logical Fallacy is...[appeal to nature]..."

[Ucropi]

Communism is a philosophical vaccine. Capitalism is the disease because no one benefits from a disease but the disease.

Actually, wrong. Capitalist systems are much better at innovating due to competition. They are also much better at producing strong militaries, and, at least laissez-faire systems, are much better at protecting individual rights versus the collective.

Not denying that they are hierarchical and archaic, but they due have benefits. Do those benefits outweigh costs? That's up to you.

You're absolutely right, why have harmony and equality when you can innovate new weapons for your military to butcher civilians and other combatants with?

[Marcunia]

I have not once stated that human nature is good, nor that it is permanent. I have actually clearly stated that nature evolves and that thus human nature could at one point evolve. I have also repeated many times in the past that i generally like the idea of a true anarcho-communist world, but that it is not something we could possibly grasp with the way we currently work. Try not to misinterpret my words.

You are appealing to nature by saying that human nature dictates communism is impossible.

I say again, "Your Logical Fallacy is...[appeal to nature]..."

Im not appealing to nature. Im saying our nature limits us from achieving a true communist existence. Recognizing something and appealing to something is vastly different. I recognize that i cannot fly, but i do not enjoy that fact.

[Marcunia]

Actually, wrong. Capitalist systems are much better at innovating due to competition. They are also much better at producing strong militaries, and, at least laissez-faire systems, are much better at protecting individual rights versus the collective.

Not denying that they are hierarchical and archaic, but they due have benefits. Do those benefits outweigh costs? That's up to you.

You're absolutely right, why have harmony and equality when you can innovate new weapons for your military to butcher civilians and other combatants with?

Do you have a better alternative?

[The New Sea Territory]

Im saying our nature limits us from achieving a true communist existence.

That's an appeal to nature. The only difference is you use this in a negative way...

[Ucropi]

You're absolutely right, why have harmony and equality when you can innovate new weapons for your military to butcher civilians and other combatants with?

Do you have a better alternative?

See that first part of my last post? About "harmony and equality"? Pretty sure communism would bring that around quicker than capitalism

[The New Sea Territory]

Actually, wrong. Capitalist systems are much better at innovating due to competition. They are also much better at producing strong militaries, and, at least laissez-faire systems, are much better at protecting individual rights versus the collective.

Not denying that they are hierarchical and archaic, but they due have benefits. Do those benefits outweigh costs? That's up to you.

You're absolutely right, why have harmony and equality when you can innovate new weapons for your military to butcher civilians and other combatants with?

...I see you are what I call a "Dogmatic Communist". You have such a narrow view of the world, you can't see anything besides communism as beneficial in any way.

People like you turn off people who would become communists. You are the reason communism will never exist.

[The New Sea Territory]

Do you have a better alternative?

See that first part of my last post? About "harmony and equality"? Pretty sure communism would bring that around quicker than capitalism

Probably true. But not Vanguardist Communism. All that causes is the capitalist state to end an a hierarchical socialist state to replace it.

[Marcunia]

Im saying our nature limits us from achieving a true communist existence.

That's an appeal to nature. The only difference is you use this in a negative way...

And that is nowhere close to me stating that what we currently have is ideal when compared to communism.

[Marcunia]

Do you have a better alternative?

See that first part of my last post? About "harmony and equality"? Pretty sure communism would bring that around quicker than capitalism

Do you have any idea how we would even begin to achieve communism? And maintaining it is just a whole different level. Wishful thinking, sadly, doesn't apply to reality.

[The New Sea Territory]

That's an appeal to nature. The only difference is you use this in a negative way...

And that is nowhere close to me stating that what we currently have is ideal when compared to communism.

That's not what I'm saying.

[Ucropi]

See that first part of my last post? About "harmony and equality"? Pretty sure communism would bring that around quicker than capitalism

Probably true. But not Vanguardist Communism. All that causes is the capitalist state to end an a hierarchical socialist state to replace it.

Hierarchical as in wealth or as in political power?

[Wind in the Willows]

I wouldn't say it is a disease, but is an ideology followed by rebellious teenagers who are obviously not fully connected with reality. Humans will never be completely equal and it is time they accepted it.

If you want to be rich and make something of themselves in society, then you have to work for it and not expect the state to take somebody elses property off them just because you're jealous.

TL;DR

Communism is complete bollocks. And every famous commie has had bad facial hair too

[The New Sea Territory]

Probably true. But not Vanguardist Communism. All that causes is the capitalist state to end an a hierarchical socialist state to replace it.

Hierarchical as in wealth or as in political power?

Vanguardism transfers the means of oppression from capital (wealth) to political power (the state).

[United Marxist Nations]

I wouldn't say it is a disease, but is an ideology followed by rebellious teenagers who are obviously not fully connected with reality. Humans will never be completely equal and it is time they accepted it.

If you want to be rich and make something of themselves in society, then you have to work for it and not expect the state to take somebody elses property off them just because you're jealous.

TL;DR

Communism is complete bollocks. And every famous commie has had bad facial hair too

No Marxist thinks that humans are equal:

“The demand for equality in the mouth of the proletariat has therefore a double meaning. It is either — as was the case especially at the very start, for example in the Peasant War [see Engels’ work Peasant War in Germany]— the spontaneous reaction against the crying social inequalities, against the contrast between rich and poor, the feudal lords and their serfs, the surfeiters and the starving; as such it is simply an expression of the revolutionary instinct, and finds its justification in that, and in that only. Or, on the other hand, this demand has arisen as a reaction against the bourgeois demand for equality, drawing more or less correct and more far-reaching demands from this bourgeois demand, and serving as an agitational means in order to stir up the workers against the capitalists with the aid of the capitalists’ own assertions; and in this case it stands or falls with bourgeois equality itself. In both cases the real content of the proletarian demand for equality is the demand for the abolition of classes. Any demand for equality which goes beyond that, of necessity passes into absurdity.”

— Friedrich Engels, “Anti-Dühring”