Why be against Zionism?

[Hertzlia]

For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). While Judaism is not exactly a nationality, all jews have many traits in common, including language (Hebrew), culture (Judaism), and a common history (the bible/ ancient Israel). Jews have been prosecuted for many years and they still are for various reasons. The State of Israel was founded after WWII (and the holocaust) for that precise reason. While Israel in it's many years of existence has generated many controversies, it doesn't represent the end goals of Zionism. Criticizing Zionism because of Israel's mistakes is like criticising Nazi Germany because of Nationalism (although it is impossible to compare Israel with Nazi Germany). I understand people who are against Israel, but why be against Zionism?

Please do not bring up the Palestinian-Israeli debate, there are other threads for that but limit the discussion to Zionism.

[Zapato]

For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). While Judaism is not exactly a nationality, all jews have many traits in common, including language (Hebrew), culture (Judaism), and a common history (the bible/ ancient Israel). Jews have been prosecuted for many years and they still are for various reasons. The State of Israel was founded after WWII (and the holocaust) for that precise reason. While Israel in it's many years of existence has generated many controversies, it doesn't represent the end goals of Zionism. Criticizing Zionism because of Israel's mistakes is like criticising Nazi Germany because of Nationalism (although it is impossible to compare Israel with Nazi Germany). I understand people who are against Israel, but why be against Zionism?

Please do not bring up the Palestinian-Israeli debate, there are other threads for that but limit the discussion to Zionism.

Probably because its real world consequence is that it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism) in a place where many people who are not members of said religion already live.

[Nansurium]

It is irrational to believe that the appropriate recompense and reparation for the persecution of Jews during and before the Holocaust should be the establishment of a state that is exclusively Jewish in nature. The human rights of Jews should be protected wherever they are. But no other religious group in our history has demanded or received such treatment. In order for Zionism to work, it requires the taking of someone else's land, which simply visits yet another injustice by one group of humans against another. The zionist philosophy has led to a state that is fundamentally exclusionary and discriminatory in nature and has been since its inception. Personally, I don't think any state should endorse a particular ethnic group or religion over another, which is exactly what zionism demands of a jewish state.

If zionists had found a place in the world that was not already inhabited by other people, then perhaps it could have worked without the negative consequences.

[Sebtopiaris]

If zionists had found a place in the world that was not already inhabited by other people, then perhaps it could have worked without the negative consequences.

Antarctica, anybody? I'm sure the penguins won't mind.

[Rabopari]

because it's colonialist, in the fact that it encourages zionists to take peoples land

[Washington Resistance Army]

Why be against Greater Germany?

[Adab]

I can understand the aspirations of the Zionists after all the things that the Jews have gone through in many centuries and the special place the Land of Israel had in their hearts, but I'm against Zionism because it would require taking lands from those who already lived there for a long, long time. If only Zionism could allow looking for lands other than the Land of Israel, lands which could be gained without significantly disturbing the indigenous population, then I would be more sympathetic towards it.

[Nansurium]

If zionists had found a place in the world that was not already inhabited by other people, then perhaps it could have worked without the negative consequences.

Antarctica, anybody? I'm sure the penguins won't mind.

A few Zionists suggested Alaska early on, which I wouldn't have been as opposed to. America had the federal system necessary to incorporate the Jewish people with ease and the legal framework to prevent the kind of abuse we are seeing in Israel. And Alaska was very lightly populated at the end of the 19th century, and America would have been enthusiastic about a large number of people immigrating to develop the territory. We could have had jewish gold miners.

[Hertzlia]

Zionism doesn't encourage taking anyone's land. It realises that it is vital that there be a jewish state, for the jewish people. Judaism is not just a religion but also a culture, and history has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.

[White Spider]

Zionism doesn't encourage taking anyone's land.

It definitely seems to

It realises that it is vital that there be a jewish state, for the jewish people. Judaism is not just a religion but also a culture, and history has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.

Who cares if it's a culture. Multicultural states aren't uncommon and history doesn't prove anything of the sort.

[Hertzlia]

I can understand the aspirations of the Zionists after all the things that the Jews have gone through in many centuries and the special place the Land of Israel had in their hearts, but I'm against Zionism because it would require taking lands from those who already lived there for a long, long time. If only Zionism could allow looking for lands other than the Land of Israel, lands which could be gained without significantly disturbing the indigenous population, then I would be more sympathetic towards it.

I also support finding a land other than Israel, and regret that Israel was founded where it was. However, this is a grievance towards the State of Israel, not towards Zionism as an ideology.

[Vorrmark]

For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). *SNIP*

I want to correct a couple of things straight off. Zionism was in fact to create a state for a nationality, not a religion, and in fact, most if not all of the leading zionist figures were secularists. Most were even anti-religion, not simply religion avoiders. Judaism is the religion (and to a certain extent culture) of the nation the jews, that's why it's called judaism.

[Imperium Sidhicum]

I find it rather ironic that the current State of Israel is the closest modern thing to an actual National Socialist regime. But I suppose they had good teachers...

Though I'm no fan of the Zionist regime, I also do find admirable many things about it. Them folks do know how to run their country in a lot of matters.

[Constantinopolis]

Many people are against nationalism in general.

[Leritorius]

For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). While Judaism is not exactly a nationality, all jews have many traits in common, including language (Hebrew), culture (Judaism), and a common history (the bible/ ancient Israel). Jews have been prosecuted for many years and they still are for various reasons. The State of Israel was founded after WWII (and the holocaust) for that precise reason. While Israel in it's many years of existence has generated many controversies, it doesn't represent the end goals of Zionism. Criticizing Zionism because of Israel's mistakes is like criticising Nazi Germany because of Nationalism (although it is impossible to compare Israel with Nazi Germany). I understand people who are against Israel, but why be against Zionism?

Please do not bring up the Palestinian-Israeli debate, there are other threads for that but limit the discussion to Zionism.

Well, Zionism is the doctrine which, associated to freemasony (political) and satanism (religion) , runs the actual world towards the chaos we're in...
There's a legit reason, even for atheists, to stand against Zionism, also against freemasonry and satanism.
Plus, the Bible actually wrote down in paper that the JEws were expelled from Israel. Zionism therefore stands against the Bible. One other reason to stand against it.
And also what happens in Palestine is simple enough to stand against the sole idea of Israel ever existing as a state...

[Nansurium]

Zionism doesn't encourage taking anyone's land. It realises that it is vital that there be a jewish state, for the jewish people. Judaism is not just a religion but also a culture, and history has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.

Why is it vital for the Jewish people to have a Jewish state? The Jewish people emerged in the Palestinian region as a unified polity by the 9th century BCE. By the middle of the 8th century BCE, Israel had fallen under the influence of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, which would soon sweep that infant state away. Historians speculate that Judea operated as a vassal of Assyria before also being swept away by the Babylonians. The only other period of historical Jewish independence in this region occurred briefly following the Maccabean revolt.

So the historical precedent for a Jewish state is really quite limited. And as I said before, the notion of an explicitly jewish state enforces the very same religious discrimination against others that Jews themselves wish to avoid.

I can't speak for others, but I know that Jews are safe in America. The jews that chose to come here rather than migrate to Israel were very wise in my opinion.

[Hertzlia]

For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). *SNIP*

I want to correct a couple of things straight off. Zionism was in fact to create a state for a nationality, not a religion, and in fact, most if not all of the leading zionist figures were secularists. Most were even anti-religion, not simply religion avoiders. Judaism is the religion (and to a certain extent culture) of the nation the jews, that's why it's called judaism.

It is true that many of the Zionist leaders were secular, however I feel that modern judaism is less of a religion and more of a "race" or nationality.

---

To those saying that multi-cultural countries exist and not every culture can get its own country, I don't think that Zionism rules out other cultures in the country. Herzl, the father of modern Zionism, wrote in his book AltNeuland, about Arab integration in Israel's society and one of the main characters in the book was an Arab Engineer. Even in modern day Israel, Jews live side by side with Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Circassians. Zionism is arguably more tolerant that many branches of Nationalism.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

including language (Hebrew), culture (Judaism), and a common history (the bible/ ancient Israel).

1. Hebrew was a dead language for centuries, and Modern Hebrew has lots of differences in relation to that of Biblical times (in fact it sounds quite European, while the original Hebrew was much closer to its Semitic cousins like Aramaic and Arabic).

2. Judaism isn't a culture, it's a religion. While Israel is a rich melting pot, what is quite acceptable, saying that a national culture based on a religion is something admirable is just condoning of theocracy and fundamentalism.

3. This common history was so, so far away from contemporary notions of Jewishness that had to do with their struggles as a people living in diaspora, that it is just dishonest to cite it as an argument.

[Hertzlia]

Zionism doesn't encourage taking anyone's land. It realises that it is vital that there be a jewish state, for the jewish people. Judaism is not just a religion but also a culture, and history has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.

Why is it vital for the Jewish people to have a Jewish state? The Jewish people emerged in the Palestinian region as a unified polity by the 9th century BCE. By the middle of the 8th century BCE, Israel had fallen under the influence of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, which would soon sweep that infant state away. Historians speculate that Judea operated as a vassal of Assyria before also being swept away by the Babylonians. The only other period of historical Jewish independence in this region occurred briefly following the Maccabean revolt.

So the historical precedent for a Jewish state is really quite limited. And as I said before, the notion of an explicitly jewish state enforces the very same religious discrimination against others that Jews themselves wish to avoid.

I can't speak for others, but I know that Jews are safe in America. The jews that chose to come here rather than migrate to Israel were very wise in my opinion.

http://global100.adl.org/
Antisemitism is widespread around the world. Although America is safe for jews according to law, Europe has demonstrated that laws may not be enough to protect people always. Only a few days ago a synagogue was attacked by protesters in France and had to be stopped by the police. History has proved that the only truly safe place for jews is the Jewish state.
As to jews that came to America, sometimes America can be unsafe too. This only helps to prove that jews need a country of their own.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005139

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

[H]istory has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.

Black people suffered at least just as much racial discrimination. Is there a country that grants you a right of return to a land where you are welcomed after this plight.

Same for LGBTQI people (in fact, if I am to believe nationalism is valid at all, I think we should have 10 countries dispersed around all the very socially conservative landmasses).

The partition of Palestine was a huge mistake.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

http://global100.adl.org/
Antisemitism is widespread around the world. Although America is safe for jews according to law, Europe has demonstrated that laws may not be enough to protect people always. Only a few days ago a synagogue was attacked by protesters in France and had to be stopped by the police. History has proved that the only truly safe place for jews is the Jewish state.
As to jews that came to America, sometimes America can be unsafe too. This only helps to prove that jews need a country of their own.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005139

People are targets of discrimination and hatred, big bully. They are in no way the solely ones in this boat. About everybody on Earth got their own very mix of privilege and oppression.

If ethnically Indigenous Europeans massacred them, why not have a European country for the European Jews? The Nazis were defeated.

It seems absurd that all the Jews have a small piece of land in one of the world's most turbulent regions rather than various Jewish states.

Because guess what? Just like the Palestinians, people don't want to donate their land to another nationalistic cause! I doubt Americans would like the idea of Aztlán, either.

[Kuzbeckistan]

Because Zionism brings destruction and un stability to the middle east. They create proxy puppet terrorists such as the Free Syrian Army and Osama. Osama was a CIA asset and if he wasn't then why didn't he attack Israel?q
Also it's just BS that people label Anti-Zionists Anti-Semetic. That's just like someone saying they are Anti-Nazi while another says they are Anti-German for no reason.

[Adab]

I can understand the aspirations of the Zionists after all the things that the Jews have gone through in many centuries and the special place the Land of Israel had in their hearts, but I'm against Zionism because it would require taking lands from those who already lived there for a long, long time. If only Zionism could allow looking for lands other than the Land of Israel, lands which could be gained without significantly disturbing the indigenous population, then I would be more sympathetic towards it.

I also support finding a land other than Israel, and regret that Israel was founded where it was. However, this is a grievance towards the State of Israel, not towards Zionism as an ideology.

My problem with Zionism is that it was/is too focused on the Land of Israel, as if a "State of Israel" could not be established in another place in this world.

[Nansurium]

It is true that many of the Zionist leaders were secular, however I feel that modern judaism is less of a religion and more of a "race" or nationality.

---

To those saying that multi-cultural countries exist and not every culture can get its own country, I don't think that Zionism rules out other cultures in the country. Herzl, the father of modern Zionism, wrote in his book AltNeuland, about Arab integration in Israel's society and one of the main characters in the book was an Arab Engineer. Even in modern day Israel, Jews live side by side with Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Circassians. Zionism is arguably more tolerant that many branches of Nationalism.

What are the shared characteristics of the Jewish people, other than religious practice? Jews are present all over the world. Their are Jews who are Indian. Jews who are European. Jews who are Iranian. Jews of the Levant. There are Kurdish Jews. Iraqi Jews. While all Jews may trace their genetic origin to the Levant, this is going back thousands of years. The harsh reality is that the Jewish Diaspora swept away any shared national identity the Jewish people might have had. Now, it can be more accurately described as a shared religious and cultural tradition.

I mean, consider for a moment how your logic could be applied elsewhere. The Magyars, the ethnic tribe that settled and formed the Kingdom of Hungary, originated from the Ural mountain region in Russia. Does that mean they have a right to establish their own state there? The Tartars originate from Crimea and Kazan, but were swept away by the Russian Empire and by Stalin. Do they have a right to form a state in those regions? The ethnic Russians living there would certain object to that, as would the Russian state. The Prussians and East Germans were displaced from what is now Northern Poland following World War 2. Don't they have a right to return and establish their own state in there ethnic homeland as well? Just look at the ethnic shifts that have taken place on the British Isles. Do the Celtic peoples have a right to a state in England? Do the Normans have a right to a state in Normandy (or Scandinavia for that matter)? Do the Anglo-Saxons have a right to a state in North Germany? If the world played by the rules of Zionism, it would be utter madness all the time, just like it is in Israel and the middle-east today.

There have been countless diasporas throughout history. Do all of these persecuted ethnicities deserve a state as well? Or just the Jews?

[Saint Jade IV]

Jews have been prosecuted for many years and they still are for various reasons.

Is the prosecution of Jewish criminals different to the prosecution of Gentile ones?

In all seriousness, the main issue with Zionism is that its very difficult to actually create a Jewish state without displacing or abrogating the rights of an awful lot of people.

Wherever you were to put one, you are forcing people who live in the area already out of their homes and lands. Not to mention the issues inherent in a state created for a particular religious group. How do you protect the rights of other religions without losing the inherent "Jewishness" of the state?