by Hertzlia » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:39 am
by Zapato » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:45 am
Hertzlia wrote:For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). While Judaism is not exactly a nationality, all jews have many traits in common, including language (Hebrew), culture (Judaism), and a common history (the bible/ ancient Israel). Jews have been prosecuted for many years and they still are for various reasons. The State of Israel was founded after WWII (and the holocaust) for that precise reason. While Israel in it's many years of existence has generated many controversies, it doesn't represent the end goals of Zionism. Criticizing Zionism because of Israel's mistakes is like criticising Nazi Germany because of Nationalism (although it is impossible to compare Israel with Nazi Germany). I understand people who are against Israel, but why be against Zionism?
Please do not bring up the Palestinian-Israeli debate, there are other threads for that but limit the discussion to Zionism.
by Nansurium » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:47 am
by Sebtopiaris » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:49 am
Nansurium wrote:If zionists had found a place in the world that was not already inhabited by other people, then perhaps it could have worked without the negative consequences.
by Rabopari » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:50 am
by Washington Resistance Army » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:52 am
by Adab » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:55 am
by Nansurium » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:57 am
by Hertzlia » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:58 am
by White Spider » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:00 am
Hertzlia wrote:Zionism doesn't encourage taking anyone's land.
It realises that it is vital that there be a jewish state, for the jewish people. Judaism is not just a religion but also a culture, and history has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.
by Hertzlia » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:00 am
Adab wrote:I can understand the aspirations of the Zionists after all the things that the Jews have gone through in many centuries and the special place the Land of Israel had in their hearts, but I'm against Zionism because it would require taking lands from those who already lived there for a long, long time. If only Zionism could allow looking for lands other than the Land of Israel, lands which could be gained without significantly disturbing the indigenous population, then I would be more sympathetic towards it.
by Vorrmark » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:01 am
Hertzlia wrote:For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). *SNIP*
by Imperium Sidhicum » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:02 am
by Constantinopolis » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:03 am
by Leritorius » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:03 am
Hertzlia wrote:For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). While Judaism is not exactly a nationality, all jews have many traits in common, including language (Hebrew), culture (Judaism), and a common history (the bible/ ancient Israel). Jews have been prosecuted for many years and they still are for various reasons. The State of Israel was founded after WWII (and the holocaust) for that precise reason. While Israel in it's many years of existence has generated many controversies, it doesn't represent the end goals of Zionism. Criticizing Zionism because of Israel's mistakes is like criticising Nazi Germany because of Nationalism (although it is impossible to compare Israel with Nazi Germany). I understand people who are against Israel, but why be against Zionism?
Please do not bring up the Palestinian-Israeli debate, there are other threads for that but limit the discussion to Zionism.
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by Nansurium » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:10 am
Hertzlia wrote:Zionism doesn't encourage taking anyone's land. It realises that it is vital that there be a jewish state, for the jewish people. Judaism is not just a religion but also a culture, and history has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.
by Hertzlia » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:13 am
Vorrmark wrote:Hertzlia wrote:For those who don't know, Zionism is a political movement that emerged in the second half of the 19th century, which calls for the creation of a jewish state. It is a branch of nationalism, but differs in the fact that instead of creating a state for a nationality (Italian, German, Chinese), it aims to create a state for members of a certain religion (Judaism). *SNIP*
I want to correct a couple of things straight off. Zionism was in fact to create a state for a nationality, not a religion, and in fact, most if not all of the leading zionist figures were secularists. Most were even anti-religion, not simply religion avoiders. Judaism is the religion (and to a certain extent culture) of the nation the jews, that's why it's called judaism.
by Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:18 am
Hertzlia wrote:including language (Hebrew), culture (Judaism), and a common history (the bible/ ancient Israel).
by Hertzlia » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:20 am
Nansurium wrote:Hertzlia wrote:Zionism doesn't encourage taking anyone's land. It realises that it is vital that there be a jewish state, for the jewish people. Judaism is not just a religion but also a culture, and history has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.
Why is it vital for the Jewish people to have a Jewish state? The Jewish people emerged in the Palestinian region as a unified polity by the 9th century BCE. By the middle of the 8th century BCE, Israel had fallen under the influence of the Neo-Assyrian Empire, which would soon sweep that infant state away. Historians speculate that Judea operated as a vassal of Assyria before also being swept away by the Babylonians. The only other period of historical Jewish independence in this region occurred briefly following the Maccabean revolt.
So the historical precedent for a Jewish state is really quite limited. And as I said before, the notion of an explicitly jewish state enforces the very same religious discrimination against others that Jews themselves wish to avoid.
I can't speak for others, but I know that Jews are safe in America. The jews that chose to come here rather than migrate to Israel were very wise in my opinion.
by Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:20 am
Hertzlia wrote:[H]istory has proved that the Jews will never be safe in another people's country.
by Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:24 am
Hertzlia wrote:http://global100.adl.org/
Antisemitism is widespread around the world. Although America is safe for jews according to law, Europe has demonstrated that laws may not be enough to protect people always. Only a few days ago a synagogue was attacked by protesters in France and had to be stopped by the police. History has proved that the only truly safe place for jews is the Jewish state.
As to jews that came to America, sometimes America can be unsafe too. This only helps to prove that jews need a country of their own.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005139
by Kuzbeckistan » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:25 am
by Adab » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:27 am
Hertzlia wrote:Adab wrote:I can understand the aspirations of the Zionists after all the things that the Jews have gone through in many centuries and the special place the Land of Israel had in their hearts, but I'm against Zionism because it would require taking lands from those who already lived there for a long, long time. If only Zionism could allow looking for lands other than the Land of Israel, lands which could be gained without significantly disturbing the indigenous population, then I would be more sympathetic towards it.
I also support finding a land other than Israel, and regret that Israel was founded where it was. However, this is a grievance towards the State of Israel, not towards Zionism as an ideology.
by Nansurium » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:31 am
Hertzlia wrote:It is true that many of the Zionist leaders were secular, however I feel that modern judaism is less of a religion and more of a "race" or nationality.
To those saying that multi-cultural countries exist and not every culture can get its own country, I don't think that Zionism rules out other cultures in the country. Herzl, the father of modern Zionism, wrote in his book AltNeuland, about Arab integration in Israel's society and one of the main characters in the book was an Arab Engineer. Even in modern day Israel, Jews live side by side with Muslims, Christians, Druze, and Circassians. Zionism is arguably more tolerant that many branches of Nationalism.
by Saint Jade IV » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:41 am
Hertzlia wrote:Jews have been prosecuted for many years and they still are for various reasons.
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