The Confederate battle flag

[Ifreann]

Just posting to remind you folks that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because he was a good person. He freed them to cripple the South's agricultural based economy. No slaves = no cotton = no money for food/weapons/medical supplies.

So...what you're saying is that after the war started and the South had seceded Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation to cripple the South because even though at this point the South had already separated from the Union and began fighting they would all go, "Shit, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation. We have to let the slaves go now. Damn Yankees!" Is that what you're peddling? In what way does this loop-de-loop logic exonerate the flag from its association?

Don't be ridiculous, CTOAN. Obviously the slaves in the Union were contributing to the agricultural based economy of the South. Long distance farming is a thing, right? Like, you don't need the slaves to actually be in your fields to pick the cotton there, they can do it online or something.

[Ostroeuropa]

If you see it as any of the options, that's fine too. It might be a minority interpretation, but it's arrogant to say it's a wrong interpretation.
If you walk up to me and tell me the confederate flag is a symbol of southern heritage and pride, i'm going to accept thats how you see it. I'd even accept it's how a majority of southerners see it, and that they should be allowed to fly it.
I find this entire debate completely ridiculous.

This is where I find the debate to be completely ridiculous. People seem content with believing that a symbol can mean anything you want it to mean and others should respect what you believe a symbol means, unless you believe it's a symbol of something utterly repugnant in which case then your beliefs aren't valid if they contradict somebody with a "closer connection" with the flag. Because this is what this debate is all about; people wanting to fly the confederate flag without being accused of being racist or fans of slavery. Now that doesn't fly at all, if they want me to accept that it's a symbol of southern pride then I want them to accept that it's a symbol of racism and not get all defensive when I question why they're flying a racist symbol.

I agree both sides are guilty of this shit.
If you fly a southern flag and someone says "Why are you flying a symbol of racism?"
You should reply "Is that what you see? Well, I don't see that. I see a symbol of southern pride."
And that'd be that. But to fly off the handle and say "It's not a racist symbol" misses the point just as hard as when a someone says "It's not a symbol of southern pride, it's a racist symbol."

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

So...what you're saying is that after the war started and the South had seceded Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation to cripple the South because even though at this point the South had already separated from the Union and began fighting they would all go, "Shit, Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation. We have to let the slaves go now. Damn Yankees!" Is that what you're peddling? In what way does this loop-de-loop logic exonerate the flag from its association?

Don't be ridiculous, CTOAN. Obviously the slaves in the Union were contributing to the agricultural based economy of the South. Long distance farming is a thing, right? Like, you don't need the slaves to actually be in your fields to pick the cotton there, they can do it online or something.

I lost my shit at the phrase "long distance farming". Have a cookie.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

This is where I find the debate to be completely ridiculous. People seem content with believing that a symbol can mean anything you want it to mean and others should respect what you believe a symbol means, unless you believe it's a symbol of something utterly repugnant in which case then your beliefs aren't valid if they contradict somebody with a "closer connection" with the flag. Because this is what this debate is all about; people wanting to fly the confederate flag without being accused of being racist or fans of slavery. Now that doesn't fly at all, if they want me to accept that it's a symbol of southern pride then I want them to accept that it's a symbol of racism and not get all defensive when I question why they're flying a racist symbol.

I agree both sides are guilty of this shit.
If you fly a southern flag and someone says "Why are you flying a symbol of racism?"
You should reply "Is that what you see? Well, I don't see that. I see a symbol of southern pride."
And that'd be that. But to fly off the handle and say "It's not a racist symbol" misses the point just as hard as when a someone says "It's not a symbol of southern pride, it's a racist symbol."

See, my problem with it is that, as a southerner, I have plenty of ways to show southern pride without also showing racism. I can fly my state flag, if I want. Or, if I'm just feeling patriotic, I could fly the American flag. There are plenty of ways to express pride in my home without also feeling utterly disgusted by it, and I don't know why people choose the controversial flag guaranteed to start an argument.

[Keyboard Warriors]

This is where I find the debate to be completely ridiculous. People seem content with believing that a symbol can mean anything you want it to mean and others should respect what you believe a symbol means, unless you believe it's a symbol of something utterly repugnant in which case then your beliefs aren't valid if they contradict somebody with a "closer connection" with the flag. Because this is what this debate is all about; people wanting to fly the confederate flag without being accused of being racist or fans of slavery. Now that doesn't fly at all, if they want me to accept that it's a symbol of southern pride then I want them to accept that it's a symbol of racism and not get all defensive when I question why they're flying a racist symbol.

I agree both sides are guilty of this shit.
If you fly a southern flag and someone says "Why are you flying a symbol of racism?"
You should reply "Is that what you see? Well, I don't see that. I see a symbol of southern pride."
And that'd be that. But to fly off the handle and say "It's not a racist symbol" misses the point just as hard as when a someone says "It's not a symbol of southern pride, it's a racist symbol."

The point is, if the person flying the southern flag had an ounce of respectability and decency, they'd take it down and not fly it.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

I agree both sides are guilty of this shit.
If you fly a southern flag and someone says "Why are you flying a symbol of racism?"
You should reply "Is that what you see? Well, I don't see that. I see a symbol of southern pride."
And that'd be that. But to fly off the handle and say "It's not a racist symbol" misses the point just as hard as when a someone says "It's not a symbol of southern pride, it's a racist symbol."

The point is, if the person flying the southern flag had an ounce of respectability and decency, they'd take it down and not fly it.

No, no, they should be allowed to fly it without reproach, because they're proud of the time they lost a war to preserve slavery forever.

[TheConfederate States of America]

The point is, if the person flying the southern flag had an ounce of respectability and decency, they'd take it down and not fly it.

No, no, they should be allowed to fly it without reproach, because they're proud of the time they lost a war to preserve slavery forever.

And yet you completely ignore the historical fact that Lincoln, on the eve of secession offered the south slavery as long as the south returned to the union.

[Cannot think of a name]

Sigh. Why is this still a "popular" thread?

The same reason those inflatable punching clowns are 'good' fighters.

[TheConfederate States of America]

Just posting to remind you folks that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because he was a good person. He freed them to cripple the South's agricultural based economy. No slaves = no cotton = no money for food/weapons/medical supplies.

Had the North been agriculturally based instead of industrial you would most likely still own a human being today.

And to keep England and France out of the war.

[Dakini]

No, no, they should be allowed to fly it without reproach, because they're proud of the time they lost a war to preserve slavery forever.

And yet you completely ignore the historical fact that Lincoln, on the eve of secession offered the south slavery as long as the south returned to the union.

Yeah, because Lincoln was a politician who put the good of the country ahead of his own interests. He was willing to compromise to keep the Union together.

Holy shit, being a good politician and willing to compromise clearly makes you worse than chucklefucks who want to start their own country over the right to continue owning people (a right that nobody had told them they were going to lose) and then as soon as they've declared their own country, they pick a fight and lose it horribly.

[The Black Forrest]

Just posting to remind you folks that Lincoln didn't free the slaves because he was a good person. He freed them to cripple the South's agricultural based economy. No slaves = no cotton = no money for food/weapons/medical supplies.

Had the North been agriculturally based instead of industrial you would most likely still own a human being today.

And to keep England and France out of the war.

Expand your statement?

England for example would have NEVER assisted the South because of the slaves.....

Forgot about the raiding that went on.......

[The Black Forrest]

And yet you completely ignore the historical fact that Lincoln, on the eve of secession offered the south slavery as long as the south returned to the union.

Yeah, because Lincoln was a politician who put the good of the country ahead of his own interests. He was willing to compromise to keep the Union together.

Holy shit, being a good politician and willing to compromise clearly makes you worse than chucklefucks who want to start their own country over the right to continue owning people (a right that nobody had told them they were going to lose) and then as soon as they've declared their own country, they pick a fight and lose it horribly.

It's the mentality of today. Negotiation and compromise is a horrid thing. Especially with the Republicans.....

[Ostroeuropa]

And to keep England and France out of the war.

Expand your statement?

England for example would have NEVER assisted the South because of the slaves.....

Eh. It would have been difficult, but we could have found a justification in the right circumstances. Such as if we're fighting France at the time and France backed the Union against the Confederacy in exchange for the Union entering the war against the UK once it's over.
That would have probably resulted in a proxy UK-France war in the americas, with it not being inconceivable that the UK back the Confederacy.

[The Black Forrest]

Expand your statement?

England for example would have NEVER assisted the South because of the slaves.....

Eh. It would have been difficult, but we could have found a justification in the right circumstances. Such as if we're fighting France at the time and France backed the Union against the Confederacy in exchange for the Union entering the war against the UK once it's over.
That would have probably resulted in a proxy UK-France war in the americas, with it not being inconceivable that the UK back the Confederacy.

Well? Anything is possible with the right scenario in play.

There are a small (probably really small) number of Southerners who think England wanted to help the South and the North prevented them......

Forgot about the raiding that went on......

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Expand your statement?

England for example would have NEVER assisted the South because of the slaves.....

Eh. It would have been difficult, but we could have found a justification in the right circumstances. Such as if we're fighting France at the time and France backed the Union against the Confederacy in exchange for the Union entering the war against the UK once it's over.
That would have probably resulted in a proxy UK-France war in the americas, with it not being inconceivable that the UK back the Confederacy.

Well now we're just going into hypotheticals. England and France didn't even recognize the CSA as a country, and they wouldn't send military support to nonentities attacking some of their trade partners.

[Ifreann]

Don't be ridiculous, CTOAN. Obviously the slaves in the Union were contributing to the agricultural based economy of the South. Long distance farming is a thing, right? Like, you don't need the slaves to actually be in your fields to pick the cotton there, they can do it online or something.

I lost my shit at the phrase "long distance farming". Have a cookie.

All according to plan.

---

No, no, they should be allowed to fly it without reproach, because they're proud of the time they lost a war to preserve slavery forever.

And yet you completely ignore the historical fact that Lincoln, on the eve of secession offered the south slavery as long as the south returned to the union.

I also ignore the historical fact that Alexander the Great took it up the arse* because it doesn't change a damn thing about the Confederates.







*May not be a historical fact.

[TheConfederate States of America]

And to keep England and France out of the war.

Expand your statement?

England for example would have NEVER assisted the South because of the slaves.....

Yet England gave the south muskets (Enfield Rifles) and England gave the south lead bullets and black powder.

[The Black Forrest]

Expand your statement?

England for example would have NEVER assisted the South because of the slaves.....

Yet England gave the south muskets (Enfield Rifles) and England gave the south lead bullets and black powder.

Oh shoot. I blanked. I forgot about the raiders for which Lincoln threated war over.

Comment withdrawn.

[TheConfederate States of America]

Very well, carry on then.

[Dakini]

Expand your statement?

England for example would have NEVER assisted the South because of the slaves.....

Yet England gave the south muskets (Enfield Rifles) and England gave the south lead bullets and black powder.

Where by "gave" you mean "sold" because they were still doing business for part of the US Civil War despite the blockade, right?

'Cause there's definitely a world of difference between those statements.


Oh, and right, the UK stopped doing business with the CSA when it discovered it could get better quality, more affordable cotton from Egypt.

[Ucropi]

The flag is not racist, if it had a group of white people lynching a black guy sure, pretty racist. The people who support this flag more often than not are racist.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

The flag is not racist, if it had a group of white people lynching a black guy sure, pretty racist. The people who support this flag more often than not are racist.

Oh wow, semantics! That's never been brought up before! Thank you for this new insight. Silly us, thinking that symbols had meaning. /sarcasm. No shit it's not racist, it's a piece of cloth. Doesn't mean it can't stand for racism, though.

[TheConfederate States of America]

The flag is not racist, if it had a group of white people lynching a black guy sure, pretty racist. The people who support this flag more often than not are racist.

Wich hurts us "Southern Heritage" folks.

[Ucropi]

The flag is not racist, if it had a group of white people lynching a black guy sure, pretty racist. The people who support this flag more often than not are racist.

Oh wow, semantics! That's never been brought up before! Thank you for this new insight. Silly us, thinking that symbols had meaning. /sarcasm. No shit it's not racist, it's a piece of cloth. Doesn't mean it can't stand for racism, though.

Why does it stand for racism? Because of it's history? By that logic the swastika should still be viewed as a symbol of peace and everlasting life.

[Nazi Flower Power]

A lot of people don't seem to realize just how severely they got their asses kicked. We get a lot of alternate histories and speculation about how things could have gone differently, so people often forget just how uneven the balance of power really was.

Yeah, I mean, if the CSA had gone a few years without picking a fight with the USA and if they'd managed to bring a few more border states along and if they'd spent all their time working on industrialization (which they didn't want to do) and planting food instead of cash crops (which they also didn't want to do) then maybe they would've had a fighting chance.

..but given that they were already making plans on Mexico... probably not.

It'd take several years. Someone posted a link showing the North had something like 97% of the gun manufacturing and 90% of manufacturing in general. Even the limited industries that existed in the South were often dependent on experts from the North to set up the equipment and show them how things were done. When the South seceded, the Yankees went home. The South was less educated as well as less developed, so it would have taken them a while to catch up even if they wanted to -- and as you said they didn't really want to in the first place.