The Confederate battle flag

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Funny that you chime in because you're not from the South. You're from California, which was always a Free State and thus never left the USA.

We were our own nation though....

For a few weeks fifteen years before the Civil War started, and we were never recognized by any other nation. We became a state in 1850, and remained with the Union during the Civil War rather than again attempting to become an independent republic, largely due to the efforts of Thomas Starr-King.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Hey checkout these links whenever you have the time.

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/we ... =confedvet

Those aren't biased or irrelevant at all.

They do look like an interesting read, though. But yes, they're completely useless for the purposes of this discussion.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Hey checkout these links whenever you have the time.

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/we ... =confedvet

Those aren't biased or irrelevant at all.

Especially the information given in the first line that the magazine was created "in the interests of confederate veterans". That's an immediate admission of bias.

[Confederate Flower Power]

Those aren't biased or irrelevant at all.

Especially the information given in the first line that the magazine was created "in the interests of confederate veterans". That's an immediate admission of bias.

No, that's how you know it's reliable. You don't want to read something that's been tarnished with Northern propaganda, do you?

[Confederate Flower Power]

Those aren't biased or irrelevant at all.

They do look like an interesting read, though. But yes, they're completely useless for the purposes of this discussion.

Yeah, the earlier issues might be interesting just to see what people were thinking back then, even if it's completely wrong.

[Dakini]

Funny that you chime in because you're not from the South. You're from California, which was always a Free State and thus never left the USA.

We were our own nation though....

You mean the one that lasted three weeks and was never recognized as a nation by anyone at all?

[TheConfederate States of America]

The French did consider backing the CSA during the civil war...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_ ... _Civil_War

Just to try and get this topic back towards the CSA and Civil War...

The main reason the French wanted to support the Confederacy was because the Confeddies were more likely to support France's venture in Mexico than the United States would. See, the USA was like one of those older siblings who torments their younger sibling, but you'd better not do the same or they get pissed because James Monroe had said not to tolerate that kind of crap unless we were doing it. Anyway, with the ACW on, France (and Spain and Britain) moved in on Mexico to set up a puppet government and a new little empire. The USA was very not cool with this, and even the Confederates were kind of unhappy about it but didn't make any overt moves. Hell, there was the secret meeting at Hampton Roads between Lincoln and CSA VP Stephens and some other dignitaries, offering terms that would have been much more favorable to the south than what they'd eventually receive in exchqange for the first act of the reunited States being kicking the Europeans out of Mexico. I know what you're going to say, blah blah Lincoln dangled the thirteenth amendment in front of them and said they could avoid ratifying it blah blah Lincoln Racist, but he wanted peace and really wanted to move on to the problems south of the border. Predictably, Jefferson Davis was against it and preferred the crushing defeat he would get a few months later.

And at the same meeting the original 13th amendment was proposed.
It read:

"No Amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any state, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." --Joint Resolution of Congress, Adopted March 2, 1861

This amendment was a bribe to the south to rejoin the union.
But it was never agreed to.

Had the south agreed to this admendment slavery would still be in america today.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

We were our own nation though....

You mean the one that lasted three weeks and was never recognized as a nation by anyone at all?

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to wear my "Republic Of California" t-shirt as an emblem of regional pride (What? We weren't proclaiming it in order to keep slaves.), but Fremont put a quick end to that.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

The main reason the French wanted to support the Confederacy was because the Confeddies were more likely to support France's venture in Mexico than the United States would. See, the USA was like one of those older siblings who torments their younger sibling, but you'd better not do the same or they get pissed because James Monroe had said not to tolerate that kind of crap unless we were doing it. Anyway, with the ACW on, France (and Spain and Britain) moved in on Mexico to set up a puppet government and a new little empire. The USA was very not cool with this, and even the Confederates were kind of unhappy about it but didn't make any overt moves. Hell, there was the secret meeting at Hampton Roads between Lincoln and CSA VP Stephens and some other dignitaries, offering terms that would have been much more favorable to the south than what they'd eventually receive in exchqange for the first act of the reunited States being kicking the Europeans out of Mexico. I know what you're going to say, blah blah Lincoln dangled the thirteenth amendment in front of them and said they could avoid ratifying it blah blah Lincoln Racist, but he wanted peace and really wanted to move on to the problems south of the border. Predictably, Jefferson Davis was against it and preferred the crushing defeat he would get a few months later.

And at the same meeting the original 13th amendment was proposed.
It read:

"No Amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any state, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." --Joint Resolution of Congress, Adopted March 2, 1861

This amendment was a bribe to the south to rejoin the union.
But it was never agreed to.

Had the south agreed to this admendment slavery would still be in america today.

Actually, in the face of an unsupportable enterprise, international scorn, and constant revolts, we probably would have taken that out after a while.

[Confederate Flower Power]

And at the same meeting the original 13th amendment was proposed.
It read:

"No Amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any state, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State." --Joint Resolution of Congress, Adopted March 2, 1861

This amendment was a bribe to the south to rejoin the union.
But it was never agreed to.

Had the south agreed to this admendment slavery would still be in america today.

Actually, in the face of an unsupportable enterprise, international scorn, and constant revolts, we probably would have taken that out after a while.

No, it's impossible for constitutional amendments to be repealed. That is why it is illegal to sell alcoholic beverages.

[TheConfederate States of America]

Those aren't biased or irrelevant at all.

Especially the information given in the first line that the magazine was created "in the interests of confederate veterans". That's an immediate admission of bias.

How do you know if it's biased if you haven't read it??

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Especially the information given in the first line that the magazine was created "in the interests of confederate veterans". That's an immediate admission of bias.

How do you know if it's biased if you haven't read it??

How do you know I haven't read it? And also, I would know it was bias because of the admission of bias, see my post for details.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Especially the information given in the first line that the magazine was created "in the interests of confederate veterans". That's an immediate admission of bias.

How do you know if it's biased if you haven't read it??

For the same reason that I don't need to read the weekly magazine put out by the Royalist Society to know that they'll be fond of the Queen.

[TheConfederate States of America]

How do you know if it's biased if you haven't read it??

How do you know I haven't read it? And also, I would know it was bias because of the admission of bias, see my post for details.

I sense sarcasm....

[Yumyumsuppertime]

How do you know I haven't read it? And also, I would know it was bias because of the admission of bias, see my post for details.

I sense sarcasm....

How are you able to read it? The type is incredibly small.

[TheConfederate States of America]

I sense sarcasm....

How are you able to read it? The type is incredibly small.

You can zoom in.

[Aurora Novus]

Now to move this forward.
Lets talk about black folks that support the flag.

Like H.K. Edgerton.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._K._Edgerton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARngoeL6rPs

We've talked about him. In case you've forgotten, the general response was "So you found a black guy who buys into the lies you're telling. That fact doesn't prove any point about whether or not the flag is a racist one." I mean, if we're going for the opinions of black people, shall we check the polls? 45 percent of black people have no positive or negative reaction to the flag. 41 percent have a negative opinion. 10 percent have a positive view. Therefore, among black people who have an opinion in the matter, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of the negative viewpoint.

I'd be more interested in percentages of the black population in the South as opposed to blacks across the country. Of course blacks (and people from the north in general) are going to almost always have a defacto negative few of the flag. They're coming from a place of cultural bias.

Not that this would change my view of the flag one way or another. But it'd make for a more accurate and compelling case, as well as something interesting to note.

[Nazi Flower Power]

We've talked about him. In case you've forgotten, the general response was "So you found a black guy who buys into the lies you're telling. That fact doesn't prove any point about whether or not the flag is a racist one." I mean, if we're going for the opinions of black people, shall we check the polls? 45 percent of black people have no positive or negative reaction to the flag. 41 percent have a negative opinion. 10 percent have a positive view. Therefore, among black people who have an opinion in the matter, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of the negative viewpoint.

I'd be more interested in percentages of the black population in the South as opposed to blacks across the country. Of course blacks (and people from the north in general) are going to almost always have a defacto negative few of the flag. They're coming from a place of cultural bias.

Not that this would change my view of the flag one way or another. But it'd make for a more accurate and compelling case, as well as something interesting to note.

The South still has more black people, at least as percentage of their population, and those results are very lopsided, so you'd probably still have more people with a negative opinion of the flag than a positive opinion even after adjusting for regionalism. I mean I don't think the black people that had a problem with the flag are from Maine and Wyoming...

[TheConfederate States of America]

We've talked about him. In case you've forgotten, the general response was "So you found a black guy who buys into the lies you're telling. That fact doesn't prove any point about whether or not the flag is a racist one." I mean, if we're going for the opinions of black people, shall we check the polls? 45 percent of black people have no positive or negative reaction to the flag. 41 percent have a negative opinion. 10 percent have a positive view. Therefore, among black people who have an opinion in the matter, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of the negative viewpoint.

I'd be more interested in percentages of the black population in the South as opposed to blacks across the country. Of course blacks (and people from the north in general) are going to almost always have a defacto negative few of the flag. They're coming from a place of cultural bias.

Not that this would change my view of the flag one way or another. But it'd make for a more accurate and compelling case, as well as something interesting to note.

I think they should vote.

[Aurora Novus]

The South still has more black people, at least as percentage of their population, and those results are very lopsided, so you'd probably still have more people with a negative opinion of the flag than a positive opinion even after adjusting for regionalism.

Probably so. I'd just be interested in seeing what those numders would be, just for curiosities sake.

Even on it's face though, the poll suggests most blacks don't have a problem with the flag. They either like it or just don't care about it. I'm wondering how many of those that don't care are located in the north or south, because depending on that, it could sway how blacks who are actually affected by the flag (by which I mean, live in the area of the country where it's actually flown on a regular basis) view the flag.

What's important isn't that more blacks have a negative view than a positive one. What's important is that more blacks don't have a negative view, as opposed to having one. Those are the stats I'm interested in.

EDIT: My guess would be that many of the blacks who are indifferent to the flag don't live in the South, and are indifferent either becaue they aren't affected by it, or because they don't know the history, as opposed to blacks in the South, who would undoubtably know the history of the flag (since it's so common). But I don't want to make assumptions.

[Aurora Novus]

I'd be more interested in percentages of the black population in the South as opposed to blacks across the country. Of course blacks (and people from the north in general) are going to almost always have a defacto negative few of the flag. They're coming from a place of cultural bias.

Not that this would change my view of the flag one way or another. But it'd make for a more accurate and compelling case, as well as something interesting to note.

I think they should vote.

...Who should vote?

[Nazi Flower Power]

The South still has more black people, at least as percentage of their population, and those results are very lopsided, so you'd probably still have more people with a negative opinion of the flag than a positive opinion even after adjusting for regionalism.

Probably so. I'd just be interested in seeing what those numders would be, just for curiosities sake.

Even on it's face though, the poll suggests most blacks don't have a problem with the flag. They either like it or just don't care about it. I'm wondering how many of those that don't care are located in the north or south, because depending on that, it could sway how blacks who are actually affected by the flag (by which I mean, live in the area of the country where it's actually flown on a regular basis) view the flag.

What's important isn't that more blacks have a negative view than a positive one. What's important is that more blacks don't have a negative view, as opposed to having one. Those are the stats I'm interested in.

EDIT: My guess would be that many of the blacks who are indifferent to the flag don't live in the South, and are indifferent either becaue they aren't affected by it, or because they don't know the history, as opposed to blacks in the South, who would undoubtably know the history of the flag (since it's so common). But I don't want to make assumptions.

41% of the black population is still enough that the flag offends large numbers of people.

[Aurora Novus]

Probably so. I'd just be interested in seeing what those numders would be, just for curiosities sake.

Even on it's face though, the poll suggests most blacks don't have a problem with the flag. They either like it or just don't care about it. I'm wondering how many of those that don't care are located in the north or south, because depending on that, it could sway how blacks who are actually affected by the flag (by which I mean, live in the area of the country where it's actually flown on a regular basis) view the flag.

What's important isn't that more blacks have a negative view than a positive one. What's important is that more blacks don't have a negative view, as opposed to having one. Those are the stats I'm interested in.

EDIT: My guess would be that many of the blacks who are indifferent to the flag don't live in the South, and are indifferent either becaue they aren't affected by it, or because they don't know the history, as opposed to blacks in the South, who would undoubtably know the history of the flag (since it's so common). But I don't want to make assumptions.

41% of the black population is still enough that the flag offends large numbers of people.

This is true, but even so, a large number isn't a majorty. Nor would a majority convince me anyway. Like I said, I'm just curious for curiosities sake.

[TheConfederate States of America]

We've talked about him. In case you've forgotten, the general response was "So you found a black guy who buys into the lies you're telling. That fact doesn't prove any point about whether or not the flag is a racist one." I mean, if we're going for the opinions of black people, shall we check the polls? 45 percent of black people have no positive or negative reaction to the flag. 41 percent have a negative opinion. 10 percent have a positive view. Therefore, among black people who have an opinion in the matter, the numbers are overwhelmingly in favor of the negative viewpoint.

I'd be more interested in percentages of the black population in the South as opposed to blacks across the country. Of course blacks (and people from the north in general) are going to almost always have a defacto negative few of the flag. They're coming from a place of cultural bias.

Not that this would change my view of the flag one way or another. But it'd make for a more accurate and compelling case, as well as something interesting to note.

But the poll shouldn't just focus on black southerners it should include ALL southerners.
I would like to see the results from that poll.

[KASSRD]

I'd be more interested in percentages of the black population in the South as opposed to blacks across the country. Of course blacks (and people from the north in general) are going to almost always have a defacto negative few of the flag. They're coming from a place of cultural bias.

Not that this would change my view of the flag one way or another. But it'd make for a more accurate and compelling case, as well as something interesting to note.

But the poll shouldn't just focus on black southerners it should include ALL southerners.
I would like to see the results from that poll.

I am willing to bet the results would still be not what you want. The south has grown up enough in some areas to not have a majority like this.