The Confederate battle flag

[Yumyumsuppertime]

There's a subtle difference between looking down at someone, and putting that person in chains.

I was agreeing with him and adding some facts about Abraham Lincoln. Am I not allowed to do that?

Yes, and Dracoria is allowed to respond to whatever you say. It's how discussion forums work.

[The Black Forrest]

Actually most union soldiers didn't care about freeing the slaves at all.

Quite a few did. There was this one professor who cared about freeing the enslaved, and combined with his preference for the Union to stay unified, this led him to leave his cushy teaching job to work in the field. You may have heard of him.

He had an amazing mind. How many people can teach three or four philosophy styles?

[United States Kingdom]

I was agreeing with him and adding some facts about Abraham Lincoln. Am I not allowed to do that?

Yes, and Dracoria is allowed to respond to whatever you say. It's how discussion forums work.

I am fully aware of that.

[Nazi Flower Power]

It's not entirely unfounded. It's just confined to sports fans celebrating when their team wins a major victory.

The rest of the time, there is still the excessive cussing and the bad driving, but no puking in the streets and yelling at strangers.

There's not even a neighborhood or two where that's a regular thing? I mean, out here you can go to Venice Beach and be assured of seeing at least three people vomit.

Allston is like that, but no more so than what you'll find in other cities if you go to the part of the city where the bars are.

[TheConfederate States of America]

Thats true and I don't see why Abraham Lincoln is such a 'noble person' when he was a white supremacist himself and he stated that white people are superior to us.

...Where did he say that?

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

-Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858 (The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)

Not only was Lincoln a racist, he allowed the Confederacy to keep slavery:

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person's held to labor or service by laws of said State."

-Abraham Lincoln-March of 1861

and

"The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union."

-This resolution was passed unanimously by Congress on July 23, 1861.

[Dracoria]

Quite a few did. There was this one professor who cared about freeing the enslaved, and combined with his preference for the Union to stay unified, this led him to leave his cushy teaching job to work in the field. You may have heard of him.

He had an amazing mind. How many people can teach three or four philosophy styles?

He was an amazing mind and an amazing body. Seriously, his last wound during the war had people thinking he was dead. Had to be catheterized because the shot wrecked his groin after a rather badass moment of staying upright through will alone, went back to command as soon as he could and then took another miracle shot that, to all appearances, looked to go right through his chest - and kept giving orders. After all that pain, he still showed respect to those on the other side. Then he went on to be elected as governor, catheter and all, refused to give in to bribes and left politics. Amazing man, even if one doesn't believe he initiated the charge on July 2nd.

[United States Kingdom]

Thats true and I don't see why Abraham Lincoln is such a 'noble person' when he was a white supremacist himself and he stated that white people are superior to us.

...Where did he say that?

If you mean't when did Lincoln state that, look at the post above mine.

[Dracoria]

...Where did he say that?

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

-Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858 (The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)

Not only was Lincoln a racist, he allowed the Confederacy to keep slavery:

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person's held to labor or service by laws of said State."

-Abraham Lincoln-March of 1861

and

"The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union."

-This resolution was passed unanimously by Congress on July 23, 1861.

He was willing to put up with slavery if it kept the union together a little longer. Probably figured the practice would die on its own as the agricultural economy withered. Then the secessionists struck and, not having to keep them happy, it was time to cut the chains.

[United States Kingdom]

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

-Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858 (The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)

Not only was Lincoln a racist, he allowed the Confederacy to keep slavery:

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person's held to labor or service by laws of said State."

-Abraham Lincoln-March of 1861

and

"The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union."

-This resolution was passed unanimously by Congress on July 23, 1861.

He was willing to put up with slavery if it kept the union together a little longer. Probably figured the practice would die on its own as the agricultural economy withered. Then the secessionists struck and, not having to keep them happy, it was time to cut the chains.

Yet he Married Mary Todd who's family supported slavery.

[Nazi Flower Power]

The "I'm honoring my ancestors" argument would hold more water if people used a regimental flag from a regiment their ancestors served in.

Or one that their town or city contributed a company to, at least. Plus, many of those flags had nice, individual touches to them. I guess the downside is that most would be more difficult to paint on your truck than stars and crosses, as some had trees, human figures, or animals thrown in.

Unfortunately, it's hard to find a good picture online of the Delaware regiments, though the most prominent, the 1st Delaware Infantry, had a rather typical one with two human figures, crest, and banners. But it looks like the 1st Delaware Infantry captured two Confederate battle flags at Gettysburg, probably on July 3rd. Went through 4 regimental commanders at Gettysburg, too, so I suppose overall it's worth being proud of. Granted I was born in California (I got better) and I'm not even sure where my ancestors fought during the war (can't ask my parents and grandparents as they're all in the ground), so I guess I'm stuck with Delaware pride.

If you admire a particular regiment for what they did during the war or because of state pride, that's just as legit as if your ancestors were part of it. I mean I don't think all the 54th Massachusetts and 20th Maine fans are descended from the troops who fought in those regiments.

[United States Kingdom]

" During the 1858 debates with Stephen Douglas, Lincoln expressed his contemporary view that he believed whites were superior to blacks."

Wikipidea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Li ... _Americans

[Dracoria]

Or one that their town or city contributed a company to, at least. Plus, many of those flags had nice, individual touches to them. I guess the downside is that most would be more difficult to paint on your truck than stars and crosses, as some had trees, human figures, or animals thrown in.

Unfortunately, it's hard to find a good picture online of the Delaware regiments, though the most prominent, the 1st Delaware Infantry, had a rather typical one with two human figures, crest, and banners. But it looks like the 1st Delaware Infantry captured two Confederate battle flags at Gettysburg, probably on July 3rd. Went through 4 regimental commanders at Gettysburg, too, so I suppose overall it's worth being proud of. Granted I was born in California (I got better) and I'm not even sure where my ancestors fought during the war (can't ask my parents and grandparents as they're all in the ground), so I guess I'm stuck with Delaware pride.

If you admire a particular regiment for what they did during the war or because of state pride, that's just as legit as if your ancestors were part of it. I mean I don't think all the 54th Massachusetts and 20th Maine fans are descended from the troops who fought in those regiments.

Or 1st Minnesota fans, but there's probably a reason for how few descendents they left.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

He was willing to put up with slavery if it kept the union together a little longer. Probably figured the practice would die on its own as the agricultural economy withered. Then the secessionists struck and, not having to keep them happy, it was time to cut the chains.

Yet he Married Mary Todd who's family supported slavery.

Whose, not who's. And this relates to the Confederate flag and racism how?

[Dracoria]

He was willing to put up with slavery if it kept the union together a little longer. Probably figured the practice would die on its own as the agricultural economy withered. Then the secessionists struck and, not having to keep them happy, it was time to cut the chains.

Yet he Married Mary Todd who's family supported slavery.

James Carville and Mary Matalin got married too. Your point?

[TheConfederate States of America]

He had an amazing mind. How many people can teach three or four philosophy styles?

He was an amazing mind and an amazing body. Seriously, his last wound during the war had people thinking he was dead. Had to be catheterized because the shot wrecked his groin after a rather badass moment of staying upright through will alone, went back to command as soon as he could and then took another miracle shot that, to all appearances, looked to go right through his chest - and kept giving orders. After all that pain, he still showed respect to those on the other side. Then he went on to be elected as governor, catheter and all, refused to give in to bribes and left politics. Amazing man, even if one doesn't believe he initiated the charge on July 2nd.

Now to that I agree Chamberlin was a great man.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cha ... 52189019EC

[Yumyumsuppertime]

...Where did he say that?

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

-Fourth Debate with Stephen A. Douglas at Charleston, Illinois, September 18, 1858 (The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume III, pp. 145-146.)

Not only was Lincoln a racist, he allowed the Confederacy to keep slavery:

"No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any state with the domestic institutions thereof, including that a person's held to labor or service by laws of said State."

-Abraham Lincoln-March of 1861

and

"The War is waged by the government of the United States not in the spirit of conquest or subjugation, nor for the purpose of overthrowing or interfering with the rights or institutions of the states, but to defend and protect the Union."

-This resolution was passed unanimously by Congress on July 23, 1861.

I believe that this was already responded to here:

viewtopic.php?p=20877239#p20877239

[United States Kingdom]

Yet he Married Mary Todd who's family supported slavery.

James Carville and Mary Matalin got married too. Your point?

My point is that Lincoln supported white supremacism. That is my point.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

James Carville and Mary Matalin got married too. Your point?

My point is that Lincoln supported white supremacism. That is my point.

He held the same beliefs regarding black people as pretty much every other white person of the time.

[United States Kingdom]

My point is that Lincoln supported white supremacism. That is my point.

He held the same beliefs regarding black people as pretty much every other white person of the time.

Yes and I believe most whites then supported racism and slavery.

[Dracoria]

He held the same beliefs regarding black people as pretty much every other white person of the time.

Yes and I believe most whites then supported racism and slavery.

Which were bad at the time. They would get better, but not until slavery was a thing of the past and they had lived among eachother for longer periods.

[Dracoria]

He was an amazing mind and an amazing body. Seriously, his last wound during the war had people thinking he was dead. Had to be catheterized because the shot wrecked his groin after a rather badass moment of staying upright through will alone, went back to command as soon as he could and then took another miracle shot that, to all appearances, looked to go right through his chest - and kept giving orders. After all that pain, he still showed respect to those on the other side. Then he went on to be elected as governor, catheter and all, refused to give in to bribes and left politics. Amazing man, even if one doesn't believe he initiated the charge on July 2nd.

Now to that I agree Chamberlin was a great man.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=cha ... 52189019EC

I love that movie. It's what really ignited my interest in the ACW.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

He held the same beliefs regarding black people as pretty much every other white person of the time.

Yes and I believe most whites then supported racism and slavery.

Most were certainly racist by modern terms. However, there was a huge divide regarding the future of the nation as it related to slavery, and many were firmly on the side of abolition, or at least not allowing it to spread.

[TheConfederate States of America]

My point is that Lincoln supported white supremacism. That is my point.

He held the same beliefs regarding black people as pretty much every other white person of the time.

And Alexander H Steavens a friend of dishonest abe.

[White Bluff]

i was reading though this and i saw something about the South being a traiter to the USA, but u have to remeber that the USA is also a traiter to British Crown.

[Gaelic Celtia]

James Carville and Mary Matalin got married too. Your point?

My point is that Lincoln supported white supremacism. That is my point.

Uh, yeah no. Maybe he wasn't John Brown, but he was not a supremacist, and especially not just because his wife's family owned slaves.

Are the Rebel Sympathizers going to do anything besides just attack Lincoln here to try and detract the negative connotations of the flag? Because, I fail to see how pointing things out about Lincoln makes your beloved banner less negative.