Christian Discussion Thread IV

[The Union of the West]

If he has vocal chords and a big enough ego, he can.

Like I said, the Pope is only infallible in faith and morals. Claims of divinity are outside of his jurisdiction.

I would think divinity falls under faith.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Like I said, the Pope is only infallible in faith and morals. Claims of divinity are outside of his jurisdiction.

I would think divinity falls under faith.

Stop being willfully ignorant. The Pope can never make a claim of divinity, it would go against everything the Church teaches, including the role of the Pope. if he did so he'd be automatically abdicating the throne by way extreme heresy.

[Tmutarakhan]

A couple questions for believers in Papal Infallibility:

1) If the Pope were to claim to be God, would that make it true?

2) Back in the days of Galileo, the Church and Pope Paul V held the position that the Earth was at the center of the universe and the sun revolved around the Earth. Modern science has proven that this is obviously wrong. Is this not an error on behalf of the Pope, therefore making him fallible?

The Pope is only infallible in faith and morals.

When the Pope "by virtue of our apostolic authority, enjoins on all the faithful the duty to abjure the pernicious Pythagorean doctrine that the Earth is subject to a double motion, a diurnal rotation about its axis and an annual revolution about the Sun", he considered it a question of faith (to deny the Scriptures was to deny the Holy Spirit) and a moral duty (to combat the spreading of such heresy). He thought he was being infallible, but he was mistaken?

[Tmutarakhan]

A couple questions for believers in Papal Infallibility:

1) If the Pope were to claim to be God, would that make it true?

That's not how it works. He cannot make such a claim.

2) Back in the days of Galileo, the Church and Pope Paul V held the position that the Earth was at the center of the universe and the sun revolved around the Earth. Modern science has proven that this is obviously wrong. Is this not an error on behalf of the Pope, therefore making him fallible?

The Church held that view because that was the contemporary scientific consensus.

It was deeper than that. As Cardinal Bellarmine explained, "It is as much a heresy to deny that Abraham had two sons and Jacob twelve as to deny the Virgin Birth of Christ, for the selfsame Holy Spirit affirms both... the words 'The sun also rises, and the sun goes down, and hurries back to the place from which it rises' were written by Solomon, who was not only divinely inspired to speak, but was a man wise above all others, and learned in the sciences and the nature of the world, which wisdom he had from God."

[Constantinopolis]

When you kill someone in self-defence, the Church considers that murder. It is a very grave sin. But in many places, the state does not consider it murder, and it is legal.

The Church's definition of murder and the legal definition of murder are different in most countries. Yet there is no movement to bring the legal definition perfectly in line with the Church's definition.

Not true, killing in self defense or to prevent the shedding of innocent bloox is considered justfied. If not, you better talk to your priests who consecrate military weapons.

As far as I know, killing in self-defence is not justified, but killing in defence of others can be justified under certain circumstances. When priests consecrate military weapons, it is done on the latter basis (but even so, it's a controversial act, and there are other priests and bishops - and laypeople such as myself - who frown upon it).

[Constantinopolis]

Like I said, the Pope is only infallible in faith and morals. Claims of divinity are outside of his jurisdiction.

I would think divinity falls under faith.

Catholics believe that if the Pope becomes a heretic, then he automatically stops being the true Pope from that moment on (regardless of whether anyone is aware of this or not). So if the Pope were to declare ex cathedra that some heresy is true, that would mean he has been a heretic for a while, so he has been a false Pope for a while, so his declaration was not infallible.

In other words, basically, Papal infallibility cannot be used to contradict previously-established dogmas of the Catholic Church. This is one of the limits on the Pope's "power" of infallibility.

If society is driving down the autobahn of progress, then the Catholic Church is an old guy driving with his blinkers on. He'll always lag annoyingly behind and be in the way, but that doesn't mean he isn't moving.

The only kind of progress that society is making right now is scientific and technological. In terms of politics and economics we're moving backwards, and in terms of social mores we're... moving sideways, I guess (i.e. change is happening, but we can disagree about whether it is overall positive or overall negative).

[Zanubiyala]

I guess I would be considered Baptist, but I have a lot in common with Methodists and Pentecostals on certain doctrines.

Im really non-denominational.

But my argument here is that the Pre-Trib rapture is a false teaching and is of the devil.


Christians will have to go threw the tribulation.

I also am against Dispensationalism, Christians are the new Israel.

the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people.

[Benuty]

I guess I would be considered Baptist, but I have a lot in common with Methodists and Pentecostals on certain doctrines.

Im really non-denominational.

But my argument here is that the Pre-Trib rapture is a false teaching and is of the devil.


Christians will have to go threw the tribulation.

I also am against Dispensationalism, Christians are the new Israel.

the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people.

The Diabolos is a pre-medieval superstition with no scriptural backing.

[Menassa]

[...]

the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people.

Throw that in there because it's pertinent...

[Benuty]

[...]

the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people.

Throw that in there because it's pertinent...

May be an attempt to resurrect Edgar Allen Poe from the grave.

[Angleter]

The Pope is only infallible in faith and morals.

When the Pope "by virtue of our apostolic authority, enjoins on all the faithful the duty to abjure the pernicious Pythagorean doctrine that the Earth is subject to a double motion, a diurnal rotation about its axis and an annual revolution about the Sun", he considered it a question of faith (to deny the Scriptures was to deny the Holy Spirit) and a moral duty (to combat the spreading of such heresy). He thought he was being infallible, but he was mistaken?

This quote manages one Google Search result - this thread. At least "to kill a Saracen is not a sin" managed two other results. Anyway, I finally managed to find where it's supposed to come from - the papal bull Speculatores Domus Israel. Since I have other things to do, I'll just leave a link - no, not infallible.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Not true, killing in self defense or to prevent the shedding of innocent bloox is considered justfied. If not, you better talk to your priests who consecrate military weapons.

As far as I know, killing in self-defence is not justified, but killing in defence of others can be justified under certain circumstances. When priests consecrate military weapons, it is done on the latter basis (but even so, it's a controversial act, and there are other priests and bishops - and laypeople such as myself - who frown upon it).

Which would make no logical sense having one without the other.

[Zanubiyala]

I guess I would be considered Baptist, but I have a lot in common with Methodists and Pentecostals on certain doctrines.

Im really non-denominational.

But my argument here is that the Pre-Trib rapture is a false teaching and is of the devil.


Christians will have to go threw the tribulation.

I also am against Dispensationalism, Christians are the new Israel.

the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people.

The Diabolos is a pre-medieval superstition with no scriptural backing.

The Devil/Satan is very scriptural and real.

Jesus himself cast out devils, and Christians today can cast out devils/demons.

[Benuty]

The Diabolos is a pre-medieval superstition with no scriptural backing.

The Devil/Satan is very scriptural and real.

Jesus himself cast out devils, and Christians today can cast out devils/demons.

Which is why the Diabolos, and demons are present in the Old Testament?

Oh wait they are not.

[Zanubiyala]

The Devil/Satan is very scriptural and real.

Jesus himself cast out devils, and Christians today can cast out devils/demons.

Which is why the Diabolos, and demons are present in the Old Testament?

Oh wait they are not.

Satan is in the book of Job
Actually the Old Testament talks about demons and fallen angels

http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html

[Menassa]

Which is why the Diabolos, and demons are present in the Old Testament?

Oh wait they are not.

Satan is in the book of Job
Actually the Old Testament talks about demons and fallen angels

http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html

That uh.... that source deals with a lot of maybes... and not a lot of fact.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Which is why the Diabolos, and demons are present in the Old Testament?

Oh wait they are not.

Satan is in the book of Job
Actually the Old Testament talks about demons and fallen angels

http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html

You mean the same Book of Job where God and Satan are basically the bestest of friends that ever there was?

[Zanubiyala]

Satan is in the book of Job
Actually the Old Testament talks about demons and fallen angels

http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html

That uh.... that source deals with a lot of maybes... and not a lot of fact.

Hmmmm.

Well its funny how the occult has actual things going on.

These are obviously demons.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

That uh.... that source deals with a lot of maybes... and not a lot of fact.

Hmmmm.

Well its funny how the occult has actual things going on.

These are obviously demons.

They have lots of things going on, like a bunch of teens in black drawing pentagrams on the floor every other other sunday, but not much beside that.

[Menassa]

Satan is in the book of Job
Actually the Old Testament talks about demons and fallen angels

http://www.crivoice.org/demonsot.html

You mean the same Book of Job where God and Satan are basically the bestest of friends that ever there was?

Well of you call the employer-boss relationship the bestest of friends...
But hey you may have had better work experiences than I!

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

You mean the same Book of Job where God and Satan are basically the bestest of friends that ever there was?

Well of you call the employer-boss relationship the bestest of friends...
But hey you may have had better work experiences than I!

I am under the understanding that God's a fantastic boss, being omnibenevolent and all that.

[Benuty]

Well of you call the employer-boss relationship the bestest of friends...
But hey you may have had better work experiences than I!

I am under the understanding that God's a fantastic boss, being omnibenevolent and all that.

Especially with no aspect of eternally torturing someone's soul in somewhere straight out of Hellenic literature.

[Zanubiyala]

Hmmmm.

Well its funny how the occult has actual things going on.

These are obviously demons.

They have lots of things going on, like a bunch of teens in black drawing pentagrams on the floor every other other sunday, but not much beside that.

It’s way more then that.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

They have lots of things going on, like a bunch of teens in black drawing pentagrams on the floor every other other sunday, but not much beside that.

It’s way more then that.

Oh, and listening to Metal. I personally prefer Punk, but there is no disputing taste.

[Menassa]

It’s way more then that.

Oh, and listening to Metal. I personally prefer Punk, but there is no disputing taste.

There might be some light narcotics involved.