Gun Control - A Political Thread

[Occupied Deutschland]

"Laws stop criminals, when they're enforced."
To which he replied: "One word: Prohibition."

He may have been utilizing this as an example of a law that was enforced yet failed to stop criminals.

How well enforced was prohibition? Not so well in the Midwest and northeast apparently.

Adding that to the fact that you're banning something that was legal for a very long time.

You realize semi-automatic weapons have been legal since their inception in the US, yes?

[Big Jim P]

One word: Prohibition.

Edit: and you are much more likely to be able to defend yourself here as well.

Nobody's suggesting we ban guns completely. Just regulate more.

And what do you mean by your edit? The gun murder rate is higher in the US than any other developed country.

(btw, in my earlier post i meant *in the US than Australia)

so is the defensive use of guns.

[Big Jim P]

How well enforced was prohibition? Not so well in the Midwest and northeast apparently.

Adding that to the fact that you're banning something that was legal for a very long time.

You realize semi-automatic weapons have been legal since their inception in the US, yes?

This one is amusing.

[Upper America]

And so will shooting the guy to death. How about you give me a good reason as to why a semi-automatic gun would be useful.

Simply because they are firearms. Duh.

Is that "duh" supposed to indicate that you have no idea what you're talking about? Firearms aren't useful when you don't have a use for them. Hunting animals and protecting yourself are the two big uses. And you shouldn't really have a use for a semi-automatic, unless you're either A) murdering people or B) in the military.

[Atlanticatia]

Nobody's suggesting we ban guns completely. Just regulate more.

And what do you mean by your edit? The gun murder rate is higher in the US than any other developed country.

(btw, in my earlier post i meant *in the US than Australia)

so is the defensive use of guns.

What's your point? Once people are murdered, they're already dead.

[Upper America]

How well enforced was prohibition? Not so well in the Midwest and northeast apparently.

Adding that to the fact that you're banning something that was legal for a very long time.

You realize semi-automatic weapons have been legal since their inception in the US, yes?

I will also add that alcohol was consumed more often before prohibition than semi-automatics are used.

[Big Jim P]

so is the defensive use of guns.

What's your point? Once people are murdered, they're already dead.

What is yours? Guns are used to defend against murderers.

[Sevvania]

As Big Jim stated, there's no evidence that semi-automatics or magazine capacity contributes to the problem in any significant way.

Tell me when we actually need one.

And if you look at Jim's signature, he's clearly part of the NRA. I'm not gonna take statistics from him without an actual source.

Tell you when you actualy need what? Evidence, or a semi-automatic weapon/certain magazine?

The rate of fire for a semi-automatic SKS rifle is listed as ~30 rounds per minute. The rate of fire for a bolt-action Lee-Enfield rifle is listed as ~30 rounds per minute. Here is additional information that was posted earlier in the thread:

44 shots fired in less than a minute, using no magazine larger than 8 rounds and no detachable magazine larger than 6 rounds.

22 shotgun blasts in one minute, from a manually operated weapon with a fixed 4 shell tube.

[Atlanticatia]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

[Big Jim P]

Simply because they are firearms. Duh.

Is that "duh" supposed to indicate that you have no idea what you're talking about? Firearms aren't useful when you don't have a use for them. Hunting animals and protecting yourself are the two big uses. And you shouldn't really have a use for a semi-automatic, unless you're either A) murdering people or B) in the military.

You forgot target shooting, and self-defense. The Duh, was more a comment regarding your apparent lack of knowledge on this subject.

[WestRedMaple]

A) I never said it wasn't. It's just more likely to be closer than mine.
B) already done when I quoted you on it

A) Well, you're way off target.
B) Asking someone to give me their opinion is not implying they're dangerous. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure that one out.

Unfortunately, every gun-control law made or proposed only restricts or hassles the law-abiding.

And how does it do that? By taking away semi-automatic guns? By banning certain magazines?

And taking away that right prevents these people form consuming alcohol?

How hollow is that head of yours? Reread my quote. I refuse to even talk about this until you say something sensible.

You say I'm way off target, so feel free to list the political positions you take which make you less conservative.

Asking about opinions is utterly irrelevant to B.

[Upper America]

What's your point? Once people are murdered, they're already dead.

What is yours? Guns are used to defend against murderers.

Once you're dead, you can't really do anything.

Tell me when we actually need one.

And if you look at Jim's signature, he's clearly part of the NRA. I'm not gonna take statistics from him without an actual source.

Tell you when you actualy need what? Evidence, or a semi-automatic weapon/certain magazine?

The rate of fire for a semi-automatic SKS rifle is listed as ~30 rounds per minute. The rate of fire for a bolt-action Lee-Enfield rifle is listed as ~30 rounds per minute. Here is additional information that was posted earlier in the thread:

44 shots fired in less than a minute, using no magazine larger than 8 rounds and no detachable magazine larger than 6 rounds.

22 shotgun blasts in one minute, from a manually operated weapon with a fixed 4 shell tube.

Tell me when we need a semi-automatic gun. Unless you can't.

Oh, and by the way, if you are quick with a gun, then you can pump out more shots than a semiautomatic. But not many people are that fast.

[Big Jim P]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

they are interesting form a mechanical and historical point of view. They are also fun to shoot and some people even enjoy making their own ammo.

[Big Jim P]

What is yours? Guns are used to defend against murderers.

Once you're dead, you can't really do anything.

Which is why you should have a gun: to prevent being murdered.

Edit: I would like to stay and play, but alas, I have to go to bed. Maybe I will encounter you amusing people again sometimes.

Thanks for the laughs.

[Upper America]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

Simple things for simple people, you know. Firing little pieces of metal that make a "pew" sound would be enough to entertain them. Gun ownership is fine to an extent. But to the point where putting restrictions on criminals is an attack on our freedoms? That's going too far.

A) Well, you're way off target.
B) Asking someone to give me their opinion is not implying they're dangerous. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure that one out.


And how does it do that? By taking away semi-automatic guns? By banning certain magazines?


How hollow is that head of yours? Reread my quote. I refuse to even talk about this until you say something sensible.

You say I'm way off target, so feel free to list the political positions you take which make you less conservative.

Asking about opinions is utterly irrelevant to B.

I support gay marriage, I believe in evolution, and I support Obamacare.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Simply because they are firearms. Duh.

Is that "duh" supposed to indicate that you have no idea what you're talking about? Firearms aren't useful when you don't have a use for them. Hunting animals and protecting yourself are the two big uses. And you shouldn't really have a use for a semi-automatic, unless you're either A) murdering people or B) in the military.

Or are target shooting. Or want a quick follow-up shot when hunting (either because of a miss, or because you're hunting social/pack animals like prairie dogs or coyotes). Or have to use a firearm in self defense.

[Atlanticatia]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

they are interesting form a mechanical and historical point of view. They are also fun to shoot and some people even enjoy making their own ammo.

I live in New Jersey. Maybe that's why it's hard for me to understand why people want to own guns with no restriction.. New Jersey is extremely small, densely populated, and has very few rural areas. No gun culture. I don't know anyone who owns a gun. I don't think I have ever seen a gun store before in my area. Among people in my area, at least, I feel like gun ownership (apart from owning a gun for hunting) is almost looked down upon. (like it's seen as weird, sort of? - anecdotal evidence among people I have spoken to) We have some of the strictest gun laws in the country and the third lowest rate of gun ownership, and gun control is basically a bipartisan issue. (This is in contrast to other Northeastern states like NY who have a bit more rural and less liberal areas in the north of the state).

Just some context I guess. That's the good thing about federalism I guess, though, right?

[WestRedMaple]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

Well, the attraction of my shotgun is that trap and skeet are enjoyable hobbies, but extremely difficult to do without a firearm.

The attraction of my self-defense firearms is that they are so superior to any other tool for this purpose.

The attraction of my old .22 is that it has been passed down through several generations of my family and my grandfather carved the stock himself.

[Gun Manufacturers]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

I like being able to go to the range with my friends, to shoot paper/clay/steel targets. Sometimes, we even set up little competitions, or skill challenges between us. I also like the mechanics of them, trying to figure out ways to improve them, etc.

[Drekka]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

It's intertaining. Firearms are fascinating price of machinery , many of which have
History , either directly ( surplus) or are based off of more modern designs .

It's like how some people are interested in certain types of cars.
Here are even fanbases , such as the abligatory "AR or gtfo" or "AK Is best gun".
It's a nice but expensive hobby to have, which you may like if given the chance.

In terms of " great" it's knowing that you are part of the silent majority,
that can responsibly own a firearm.

[Sevvania]

Tell me when we need a semi-automatic gun. Unless you can't.

Oh, and by the way, if you are quick with a gun, then you can pump out more shots than a semiautomatic. But not many people are that fast.

Tell me a legitimate reason that people shouldn't own them, unless you can't.

Why should any technology advance ever? Because sooner or later, something comes along, and it's just a little bit better than what existed before. Semi-automatics aren't Magic Murder Machines (trademark pending), they're not substantially faster-firing than lever-actions, pump-actions, or some bolt-actions, they're just marginally more convenient. You still have to take time to aim, unless you're quick with a gun (but not man people are that fast). They're just modern iterations of the age-old concept of gunpowder and lead. Another interesting note is the fact that they're often compatible with detachable magazines actually makes them safer for the user than weapons with integral or non-detachable magazines because you don't have to cycle multiple live rounds through the chamber in order to unload the weapon after loading it.

But let's disregard all that for a moment, and say that semi-automatics go away.

Things like this will still be around.

[WestRedMaple]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

Simple things for simple people, you know. Firing little pieces of metal that make a "pew" sound would be enough to entertain them. Gun ownership is fine to an extent. But to the point where putting restrictions on criminals is an attack on our freedoms? That's going too far.

You say I'm way off target, so feel free to list the political positions you take which make you less conservative.

Asking about opinions is utterly irrelevant to B.

I support gay marriage, I believe in evolution, and I support Obamacare.

Sorry, I mean less conservative than me, not less conservative than the GOP platform

[Sevvania]

I live in New Jersey. Maybe that's why it's hard for me to understand why people want to own guns with no restriction.. New Jersey is extremely small, densely populated, and has very few rural areas. No gun culture. I don't know anyone who owns a gun. I don't think I have ever seen a gun store before in my area. Among people in my area, at least, I feel like gun ownership (apart from owning a gun for hunting) is almost looked down upon. (like it's seen as weird, sort of? - anecdotal evidence among people I have spoken to) We have some of the strictest gun laws in the country and the third lowest rate of gun ownership, and gun control is basically a bipartisan issue. (This is in contrast to other Northeastern states like NY who have a bit more rural and less liberal areas in the north of the state).

Just some context I guess. That's the good thing about federalism I guess, though, right?

I think very few people actually believe that the general populace should be allowed to own guns with "no restriction." Generally, they just don't want what they feel to be excessive or unecessary restriction.

Personally, I think gun ownership should continue to be regulated at the state level. If your state doesn't have much a gun culture, and few rural areas or people who feel the need to own a weapon, then some tighter regulations might be just fine for that area. But I don't think that every state should have to be treated like New Jersey, because every state is a relatively unique entity with is own situations and circumstances.

[Atlanticatia]

I live in New Jersey. Maybe that's why it's hard for me to understand why people want to own guns with no restriction.. New Jersey is extremely small, densely populated, and has very few rural areas. No gun culture. I don't know anyone who owns a gun. I don't think I have ever seen a gun store before in my area. Among people in my area, at least, I feel like gun ownership (apart from owning a gun for hunting) is almost looked down upon. (like it's seen as weird, sort of? - anecdotal evidence among people I have spoken to) We have some of the strictest gun laws in the country and the third lowest rate of gun ownership, and gun control is basically a bipartisan issue. (This is in contrast to other Northeastern states like NY who have a bit more rural and less liberal areas in the north of the state).

Just some context I guess. That's the good thing about federalism I guess, though, right?

I think very few people actually believe that the general populace should be allowed to own guns with "no restriction." Generally, they just don't want what they feel to be excessive or unecessary restriction.

Personally, I think gun ownership should continue to be regulated at the state level. If your state doesn't have much a gun culture, and few rural areas or people who feel the need to own a weapon, then some tighter regulations might be just fine for that area. But I don't think that every state should have to be treated like New Jersey, because every state is a relatively unique entity with is own situations and circumstances.

I mostly agree with you. I wouldn't want to impose full-on gun legislation like in NJ, NY, or CT on the federal level. But states that want stricter gun control should be able to. The strictest gun control on the federal level that'd be feasible would probably be something like stricter background checks, and other general things that happen during purchase.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I am curious, though - to the gun owners, (and I do not mean this sarcastically at all) what is the attraction/obsession with gun ownership? Like, besides having it for a reason like hunting or protection, what makes gun ownership so great?

History is part of it. Both personally, as some firearms in my family have been in the family since my grandparents started homesteading in the late 1800s or in one case was a 'war trophy' brought back after WWII. So there's a trace of 'family tradition' to it.
Besides that, the firearms themselves have history that interests me. My grandad's war-trophy Mosin was made in '44 and more than likely used by some Soviet soldier in their advance into Germany in the latter part of the war, which is just interesting in the most basic way. Besides that there's also firearms that got me interested in a particular bit of history (I own a CZ-75 and idle reading on it brought me into the Czechoslovakian firearms industry, which was somewhat notorious in the Warsaw pact for not just carbon-copying Soviet designs and instead producing their own, which then bounced me into Czech history during the Cold War itself, which then bounced me into purchasing a VZ-58 (a Czech-made rifle from the same era that, unlike most Warsaw Pact weapons, wasn't a copy of the AK but actually bears some similarities with Nazi German weapon design)). Then of course I'd love to get a black-powder muzzleloader reproduction just for the sheer historical shits and giggles it'd give me. I've fired a buddy's maybe fifty or sixty times in the last four or five years and it gives my inner historian a jolly whenever I pull the trigger and get a massive cloud of smoke in front of me.

Besides that, it's generally a common interest among people in my part of the country and can serve as a topic of conversation or bonding akin to talking about the weather or sitting drinking beer together does. Going out with friends to practice or sight-in rifles before hunting season, cleaning those rifles when we get back, and of course good-natured arguing over the 'best' firearm or 'best' caliber for specific purposes as a way of applying some of the more esoteric 'knowledge' one learns about the shooting characteristics of particular loads or calibers are all relatively 'normal' things to do with people.

Then the mechanical satisfaction of it comes into play. Similar to working on cars (something I also enjoy) tearing into a firearm and taking note of how it operates, what needs work on it, whether it needs cleaned/oiled, and such is just interesting to me in general (both historically and purely as an exercise in mechanics). On a similar note loading your own shells (something I've been slowly trying to get into in my spare time) is satisfying in an entirely different but very similar way. It's satisfying to practically 'make' your own round and then see it fire successfully (even better when you can do it consistently and get more accurate results than factory ammunition).

Then of course, there's enjoyment to me in making holes in targets or seeing coke-cans and the like bounce around as I shoot them (or making tannerite targets explode).