Do you consider the Confederate flag to be racist

[Pandeeria]

Really? How would you prove they were tolerant?

See - if the south is really that friendly to foreigners (homosexuals, women, racial minorities) etc - then I shouldn't be able to bring examples (after examples, after examples) to the table.

That doesn't prove anything except racists exist in the South. I'm not denying that, only that your over-generalization is discriminatory and biased. Every major college campus in the South, for the most part, has an LGBT organization, freedom riders regularly protect funerals from the WBC etc.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/south-is-more-racist_n_3496391.html

So is Grave saying the South is more racist?

[-The West Coast-]

What they did wasn't treason, dear sweet child.

It is, by definition.

Many philosophies that built the United States of America called for the American people to revolt against unjust government.

[Free United States]

I've haven't been reading what he's been posting, nor have I said or implied I agree with what he's posting.

Link me an example please.

Go back about two pages. All he's been saying is "when I was in [state] X happened to me..."

I don't understand the point of your statement, are you trying to insinuate that the North was just as guilty because it didn't represent the US government, yet the Northern states didn't rebel?[/quote]

I'm stating that racism is pervasive within the US as a whole, and the only reason the South gets picked on is because the winners decided that's what made them losers (though I'm not disputing racism as a factor for secession). Racism, though institutionalized in the South was socially-ingrained in the North. Most people key in on the South because they had actual laws that were racist, whereas, the North had social conformity.

[Margno]

Obviously false claim? Really?

Yes. The south isn't universally friendly. Hell, try being foreign in Arizona if you want to see unfriendly.

Let's take a look at all the places where I "claim" that the south is "universally friendly."

My condolences.

YO, BACK OFF THE SOUTH HOMIE. The south is awesome. There's okra, for one thing. And chicken fried steak. And the friendliness!

This is actually a shocking breakthrough. Our own Grave_n_idle is the objective arbitrator of what is and isn't "awesome!" Every word out of his mouth is indisputable truth. It's obvious to Grave_n_idle; one look at it and he can say "not awesome" with total certainty and then no one else has the right to an opinion.

[Oaledonia]

What they did wasn't treason, dear sweet child.

It is, by definition.

"The crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."

[Seperates]

No. I am not referring to the war. I could care less about the war. What I am saying is that their productivity was achieved through the enslavement of human beings. They knew that. That is why they fought and instigated others into fighting. If it is a symbol of the American citizen fighting for a right to productivity, then it is also a symbol of the American citizen's right to productivity utilizing any means necessary, including the enslavement of human beings which they deemed to be inferior.

Slaves aren't people, they're property and property is either productive or it's trashed. The American people can never be defined by an institution so worldwide that nearly every country on Earth enslaved another race for a large period of time. My people, Americans, are defined by what we do now, not by what our ancestors did then.

Disregarding the fact that apparently I am 'your people' (being an American)... See, it's that's the thing. Perhaps some people don't want to be told that they must be productive or be trashed. Especially when it's an entire race of people.

[Grave_n_idle]

The slaves themselves are still people. Just because something is imposed upon them doesn't mean it detracts from their true and actual existence and identity.
Further reading: nationalism, the Troubles and Ireland, reasons why the Soviet Union fell apart (section: forced Russification)

Don't tell me what to read, I'm not a child. A slave is a slave no matter what it thinks it is.

But, unless we're talking about automata, a slave would also still be a person, would they not? Even if the law at that point didn't grant them equal status - they would still be biologically people, I assume.

[Free United States]

That doesn't prove anything except racists exist in the South. I'm not denying that, only that your over-generalization is discriminatory and biased. Every major college campus in the South, for the most part, has an LGBT organization, freedom riders regularly protect funerals from the WBC etc.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/south-is-more-racist_n_3496391.html

So is Grave saying the South is more racist?

No, he's saying the South is nothing but racists. That is what I am disputing.

[Pandeeria]

It is, by definition.

Many philosophies that built the United States of America called for the American people to revolt against unjust government.

The government of the Union was not unjust.

The words like unjust that we're used to explain said philosophies were vague and arbitrary.

[Wisconsin9]

It is, by definition.

Many philosophies that built the United States of America called for the American people to revolt against unjust government.

Which would be treason. Justifiable, maybe, but still treason.

[-The West Coast-]

Don't tell me what to read, I'm not a child. A slave is a slave no matter what it thinks it is.

But, unless we're talking about automata, a slave would also still be a person, would they not? Even if the law at that point didn't grant them equal status - they would still be biologically people, I assume.

If a slave is deemed property instead of human, then it's property and not human even if it looks like us. Slaves are different.

[Wisconsin9]

It is, by definition.

"The crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."

Which is not how it's defined in the United States Constitution.

[Seperates]

I think the slaves would disagree with you on that point...

Luckily for me, slaves don't get a say in matters of men.

So are they still slaves in your mind?

[-The West Coast-]

Many philosophies that built the United States of America called for the American people to revolt against unjust government.

Which would be treason. Justifiable, maybe, but still treason.

No, that's not what treason is. Sorry, chief.

[Benuty]

Go back about two pages. All he's been saying is "when I was in [state] X happened to me..."

I don't agree then with his means of arguing, but I agree with his final idea on this topic.

I should have specified the duly elected government of the U.S.

Oh.

Didn't the confederacy just have a more pro-majority and anti-minority version of the current government?

I believe they adapted to it in order to accustom people to a system they traditionally new [even if altered] rather than a radically different government [which would have made things even more difficult]. I suppose the CSA would have started to change if a bitter peace had been reached by 1864 or otherwise.

[Wisconsin9]

Which would be treason. Justifiable, maybe, but still treason.

No, that's not what treason is. Sorry, chief.

Then what is treason?

[Pandeeria]

It is, by definition.

"The crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."

They were technically overthrowing the government in the federal states, and breaking away.

[Grave_n_idle]

Let's take a look at all the places where I "claim" that the south is "universally friendly."

If the claim is that the south is friendly, and you're objecting to me saying that it ISN'T that way for everyone...

Isn't that the same as you saying it IS universally friendly?

This is actually a shocking breakthrough. Our own Grave_n_idle is the objective arbitrator of what is and isn't "awesome!"

Actually, if you read the thread, you'll notice that I've referred to things like the idea that google searching would probably support the claim that the south is more racist than the north, or posted a link to a news story about Georgia racism.

I'm not claiming to be the objective arbitrator - I'm claiming to have direct experience, the weight of popular support, AND documentary proof that the south isn't that awesome.

[Pandeeria]

I don't agree then with his means of arguing, but I agree with his final idea on this topic.



Oh.

Didn't the confederacy just have a more pro-majority and anti-minority version of the current government?

I believe they adapted to it in order to accustom people to a system they traditionally new [even if altered] rather than a radically different government [which would have made things even more difficult]. I suppose the CSA would have started to change if a bitter peace had been reached by 1864 or otherwise.

Oh well, is generally pick a government that's against slavery then for it.

[Oaledonia]

"The crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."

Which is not how it's defined in the United States Constitution.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."
Same thing, different wording.
Despite the fact that I was backing your point.

[Westerheim]

But, unless we're talking about automata, a slave would also still be a person, would they not? Even if the law at that point didn't grant them equal status - they would still be biologically people, I assume.

If a slave is deemed property instead of human, then it's property and not human even if it looks like us. Slaves are different.

Slave is just a label. In any other situation the master might be the slave, but they'd still be a person. I can still deem you a moron, but whether I like it or not, you're still a person.

[Grave_n_idle]

But, unless we're talking about automata, a slave would also still be a person, would they not? Even if the law at that point didn't grant them equal status - they would still be biologically people, I assume.

If a slave is deemed property instead of human, then it's property and not human even if it looks like us. Slaves are different.

Cool. So if I make you my slave, you're just gonna suck it up and do as I say, because you won't be a person any more.

When can I come and collect you?

[Oaledonia]

"The crime of betraying one's country, esp. by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."

They were technically overthrowing the government in the federal states, and breaking away.

I know, glad we're on the same page.

[Divair2]

But, unless we're talking about automata, a slave would also still be a person, would they not? Even if the law at that point didn't grant them equal status - they would still be biologically people, I assume.

If a slave is deemed property instead of human, then it's property and not human even if it looks like us. Slaves are different.

That's not how biology works.

[-The West Coast-]

If a slave is deemed property instead of human, then it's property and not human even if it looks like us. Slaves are different.

Cool. So if I make you my slave, you're just gonna suck it up and do as I say, because you won't be a person any more.

When can I come and collect you?

When a law is passed that says American servicemen of citizen's birth with several properties to his name and his family's name are to be enslaved.