Do you consider the Confederate flag to be racist

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

A symbol of pride in a period characterized by its racism, Italians, for example, do not use the Fascist Eagle and Fasces as a symbol of Italian Pride, nor do Germans use the Iron Cross as a symbol of German pride, for the very good reason that it is associated with the ideology that brought about those symbols.

I can wear a hat with the stars and bars without black people bating an eye. When you're selling merchandise of it, when a TV show blatantly displayed it on a car, when a black guy hangs it in his college dorm, when Seth "Liberal Atheist" MacFarlane has Peter use it during his redneck phase with little mention of racism, I think it's properly a symbol of southern pride rather than one of racism.

Only, the Duke of Hazard put it there as a symbol of what the North, and the rest of America, thinks of the South, that is moonshine running inbred racists.

A black fellow may put it in his college dorm, but probably out of what commonly passes for 'ironic' amongst the modern youth.

And MacFarlane has Peter use it in his Redneck phase because, again, it is a symbol of what the North view the south as, racist, inbred, and ignorant.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

A symbol of pride in a period characterized by its racism, Italians, for example, do not use the Fascist Eagle and Fasces as a symbol of Italian Pride, nor do Germans use the Iron Cross as a symbol of German pride, for the very good reason that it is associated with the ideology that brought about those symbols.

I can wear a hat with the stars and bars without black people bating an eye. When you're selling merchandise of it, when a TV show blatantly displayed it on a car, when a black guy hangs it in his college dorm, when Seth "Liberal Atheist" MacFarlane has Peter use it during his redneck phase with little mention of racism, I think it's properly a symbol of southern pride rather than one of racism.

Your black person telepathy is truly astounding. You could take that act on the road.

All sorts of merchandise is sold, including offensive stuff.

The TV show to which you refer has been off of the air for decades. When it was rebooted in the movie, the fact that the flag was an offensive symbol was referred to.

"A black guy" does not represent all black people. For you to be able to point at one and believe that it says something about the whole is disturbing

Family Guy? Wow. You should note that in the show, Southerners were not portrayed sympathetically.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I can wear a hat with the stars and bars without black people bating an eye. When you're selling merchandise of it, when a TV show blatantly displayed it on a car, when a black guy hangs it in his college dorm, when Seth "Liberal Atheist" MacFarlane has Peter use it during his redneck phase with little mention of racism, I think it's properly a symbol of southern pride rather than one of racism.

Only, the Duke of Hazard put it there as a symbol of what the North, and the rest of America, thinks of the South, that is moonshine running inbred racists.

OK, bad example. Except I don't remember any episodes where they're explicitly racist. Mind citing an episode?

A black fellow may put it in his college dorm, but probably out of what commonly passes for 'ironic' amongst the modern youth.

He explicitly stated it was to remember his history.

And MacFarlane has Peter use it in his Redneck phase because, again, it is a symbol of what the North view the south as, racist, inbred, and ignorant.

Except that's not at all what Macfarlane was getting across. Besides the inbreeding, and the ignorance comes from Peter being Peter.

I should also mention that the Fasces is still used by nations around the western world so your argument is moot. Don't say it only matters that Italy doesn't use it or something along that line, because the same could be said about the south and their S&B.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

He explicitly stated it was to remember his history.

To remember the injustice done to his ancestors by the racist confederate government, which the flag represent?

Except that's not at all what Macfarlane was getting across. Besides the inbreeding, and the ignorance comes from Peter being Peter.

The use of the flag is what MacFarlane is trying to get across, because the flag itself is loaded with racist connotation. It is like Peter wearing a Klan outfit, and the claiming that it is not racist because Peter isn't doing anything explicitly racist beside...I don't know...putting on the Klan hood.

I should also mention that the Fasces is still used by nations around the western world so your argument is moot. Don't say it only matters that Italy doesn't use it or something along that line, because the same could be said about the south and their S&B.

Okay, bad example, but then again, does not refute the greater point, which is that nations, generally, do not use offensive historical symbols to demonstrate their national pride, they usually use less offensive symbols for that purpose. Southern Frenchmen, for example, don't demonstrate their pride in their region by hanging up Vichy symbols, or Italians using explicitly Fascist symbols.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

To remember the injustice done to his ancestors by the racist confederate government, which the flag represent?

Not exactly. Besides, that's like suggesting that a jew would hang up a nazi flag.

The use of the flag is what MacFarlane is trying to get across, because the flag itself is loaded with racist connotation. It is like Peter wearing a Klan outfit, and the claiming that it is not racist because Peter isn't doing anything explicitly racist beside...I don't know...putting on the Klan hood.

The flag is not loaded with racist connotations unless it is used as such. Which it wasn't in that episode.

Okay, bad example, but then again, does not refute the greater point, which is that nations, generally, do not use offensive historical symbols to demonstrate their national pride, they usually use less offensive symbols for that purpose. Southern Frenchmen, for example, don't demonstrate their pride in their region by hanging up Vichy symbols, or Italians using explicitly Fascist symbols.

And? Good for those countries and not wanting to use those (I should probably mention Fascism is multitudes worse than slavery, and the Fascists and Nazis paraded their symbols around like it's the Fascist Fourth of July while the Confederates were having trouble pinning down what flag to use). The south doesn't find the S&B offensive, so they see fit to use it to symbolize southern pride. Meanwhile, the north is in no position to tell the south how to see it and the rest of the world doesn't care (Except Mexico, maybe).

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Not exactly. Besides, that's like suggesting that a jew would hang up a nazi flag.

One Black fellow (and, contra his wishes, I will refer to him as African American heretofore because it is my preferred term) who think so does not mean that all African American think so, and that one person is not representative of his entire ethnicity. What he thinks is clearly against what almost everyone else, including his school thinks.

If a German Jew hung up the Hakenkreuz surrounded by a Sanguine field, and think it is a memorial to his German pride, doesn't mean that that flag is any less racist.

The flag is not loaded with racist connotations unless it is used as such. Which it wasn't in that episode.

It is loaded with that connotation regardless of its use as such, just as the hypothetical situation where Peter is dressed up as a Klansman doing something that isn't explicitly racist. Its racism is already inherent in the images used.

And? Good for those countries and not wanting to use those (I should probably mention Fascism is multitudes worse than slavery, and the Fascists and Nazis paraded their symbols around like it's the Fascist Fourth of July while the Confederates were having trouble pinning down what flag to use). The south doesn't find the S&B offensive, so they see fit to use it to symbolize southern pride. Meanwhile, the north is in no position to tell the south how to see it and the rest of the world doesn't care (Except Mexico, maybe).

Well, no, because the symbol that Fascists use are problematic precisely because of its ideological and cultural connotation, just as the Confederate flag is burdened with similar connotation of racism, enslavment, and dehumanization. It doesn't matter what they see it as, it remains a racist symbol, just as it matters not if some Japanese person fly the Kyokujitsu-ki as a symbol of patriotism, it is a symbol of Japanese militarism and imperialism, and the behaviour of Japan during WWII, and, as such, I, and most Chinese and Koreans, would be highly offended.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Not exactly. Besides, that's like suggesting that a jew would hang up a nazi flag.

One Black fellow (and, contra his wishes, I will refer to him as African American heretofore because it is my preferred term) who think so does not mean that all African American think so, and that one person is not representative of his entire ethnicity. What he thinks is clearly against what almost everyone else, including his school thinks.

If a German Jew hung up the Hakenkreuz surrounded by a Sanguine field, and think it is a memorial to his German pride, doesn't mean that that flag is any less racist.

Except not even Germans take it as a sign of German pride while Southerners take the S&B as a symbol of southern pride, not to mention that unlike the S&B which isn't used universal by racists, the hakenkreuz is universally a symbol of racism.

It is loaded with that connotation regardless of its use as such, just as the hypothetical situation where Peter is dressed up as a Klansman doing something that isn't explicitly racist. Its racism is already inherent in the images used.

The Klansmen and their apparel are obviously racist. The S&B, not so much, because we're debating that right now. In essence, you're begging the question.

Well, no, because the symbol that Fascists use are problematic precisely because of its ideological and cultural connotation, just as the Confederate flag is burdened with similar connotation of racism, enslavment, and dehumanization. It doesn't matter what they see it as, it remains a racist symbol, just as it matters not if some Japanese person fly the Kyokujitsu-ki as a symbol of patriotism, it is a symbol of Japanese militarism and imperialism, and the behaviour of Japan during WWII, and, as such, I, and most Chinese and Koreans, would be highly offended.

The fasces is a very poor example to compare to the S&B, because it's definitely not universally a fascist symbol while we're debating whether the S&B is universally a racist symbol. Plus it's in the opposite situation from the S&B, which is a symbol of southern pride in the south, a symbol of slavery in the north, and meaningless to people outside the US.

[Antarticaria]

*simply watches the poll at the top of the posts* anyways.. if that states anything it says some people find it racist, or offensive and others more or less dont care about the flag or see it as more of a sore losers chance to show "pride" for a lost cause but not so much as racist in of itself. *shrugs*

[Lonbonia]

Time to start the night with this topic.

No. I don't view a large piece of fabric with some colors racist.

[Mormak]

Well considering they voted against a document that held the Solomon right and promise of the confederation to and i quote "No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in nëgrö slaves shall be passed."

They are in effect in this instance the same thing

They abso-fucking-lutely are not. For all that I know, they were unanimous on that point, and in disagreement on tariff laws or something like that. Citations or quit the field.

Robert M. T. Hunter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mer ... rro_Hunter

Member of the United States House of Representatives, Member of the Confederate Senate for Virginia, Voted against the initial constitution. Notable for not owning Slaves. Not an overly out spoken critic of it, but he did push for modernization and the development of southern industry. C.S.A Secretary of State, Later became the treasurer of Virginia.

You asked for a notable person who disagreed with the practice of Slavery, Was in the C.S.A Senate, And i did you one better.

Former House of representatives member, turned C.S.A Senator, turned Sec of State for their short lived confederation who was against the practice.

So...Does this mean i don't have to "quit" the field? Oh apologies for the delay, i needed a break from the thread.

Fun topic of discussion, but it does grate on the nerves with the back and forth after a while.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Except not even Germans take it as a sign of German pride while Southerners take the S&B as a symbol of southern pride, not to mention that unlike the S&B which isn't used universal by racists, the hakenkreuz is universally a symbol of racism.

The Stars and Bars are like the Hakenkreuz in that respect. From what I understand of your argument, the symbol itself does not mean anything unless we apply meaning to it, fair enough, and some Southerner choose to see it as a symbol of Southern Pride. If some people viewed the Hakenkreuz as a symbol of German pride, then, your argument would follow, it is not a racist symbol of the great evil that gripped Germany during the Second World War and led many people to death based upon their ethnicity (Jews, Roma, Poles), politics (Communists, Socialists), religion, and ailment (the mentally deficient). Regardless of how that minority views that symbol, it is still a symbol of Nazism in the eyes of most people.

The S&B is a symbol of the Confederate Government, which solely exist to protect the interest of White Slave-owners over fear of the emancipation of the Black Slaves. It is a symbol of that regime and its inherent racism. It does not matter how some in that region choose to view it, but it is always going to carry those connotations, regardless of what you want to argue.

The Klansmen and their apparel are obviously racist. The S&B, not so much, because we're debating that right now. In essence, you're begging the question.

No, your argument is that it is not racist because Peter Griffin is not doing anything that is explicitly racist, but I am arguing that the symbol itself is racist, and therefore, regardless of what Peter is doing, the racism is already inherent in having the flag as image.

You may make the same argument about the Klansman outfit- that white outfit with the pointed hood does not necessarily represent the Klan, and may represent some other value to the wearer, just as the Flag is not necessarily a symbol of the Confederate Government and its inherent racism, and may represent some other value to he who owns it, and therefore, assuming that Peter's wearing of the Klan's hood is racist is begging the question, because the racism inherent in the hood itself as an image can be disputed.

That, however, is mere sophistry.

The fasces is a very poor example to compare to the S&B, because it's definitely not universally a fascist symbol while we're debating whether the S&B is universally a racist symbol. Plus it's in the opposite situation from the S&B, which is a symbol of southern pride in the south, a symbol of slavery in the north, and meaningless to people outside the US.

I admit that the fasces is a poor example, because its historic connection to the Roman Republic, which diffuse it throughout the western world as one symbol or another, for example, in America, in France, as symbols of republicanism. The aforementioned flag is a more apt symbol, because of its obvious military connotation, and which some Japanese, the extreme right, view as a symbol of Japanese pride in their nation and the Japanese spirit. Regardless of how a minority of people, even within the South, view the Stars and Bars, the fact remains that it is firmly entrenched with racist connotation from the mere fact that it represent the Confederacy and its raison d'etre, Slavery.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

They abso-fucking-lutely are not. For all that I know, they were unanimous on that point, and in disagreement on tariff laws or something like that. Citations or quit the field.

Robert M. T. Hunter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mer ... rro_Hunter

Member of the United States House of Representatives, Member of the Confederate Senate for Virginia, Voted against the initial constitution. Notable for not owning Slaves. Not an overly out spoken critic of it, but he did push for modernization and the development of southern industry. C.S.A Secretary of State, Later became the treasurer of Virginia.

You asked for a notable person who disagreed with the practice of Slavery, Was in the C.S.A Senate, And i did you one better.

Former House of representatives member, turned C.S.A Senator, turned Sec of State for their short lived confederation who was against the practice.

So...Does this mean i don't have to "quit" the field? Oh apologies for the delay, i needed a break from the thread.

Fun topic of discussion, but it does grate on the nerves with the back and forth after a while.

Ugh, it really does, doesn't it?

Where does it say that the slave issue was the reason that he voted against it? He may have been fine with the idea of others owning slaves for all that I know. Again, you're providing something vaguely, possibly suggestive, but not definitive.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Except not even Germans take it as a sign of German pride while Southerners take the S&B as a symbol of southern pride, not to mention that unlike the S&B which isn't used universal by racists, the hakenkreuz is universally a symbol of racism.

The Stars and Bars are like the Hakenkreuz in that respect. From what I understand of your argument, the symbol itself does not mean anything unless we apply meaning to it, fair enough, and some Southerner choose to see it as a symbol of Southern Pride. If some people viewed the Hakenkreuz as a symbol of German pride, then, your argument would follow, it is not a racist symbol of the great evil that gripped Germany during the Second World War and led many people to death based upon their ethnicity (Jews, Roma, Poles), politics (Communists, Socialists), religion, and ailment (the mentally deficient). Regardless of how that minority views that symbol, it is still a symbol of Nazism in the eyes of most people.

And the people who view the Hakenkreuz as a symbol of pride are nazis regardless. Meanwhile, the Confederate flag is used by non-racists without more than a glance.

The S&B is a symbol of the Confederate Government, which solely exist to protect the interest of White Slave-owners over fear of the emancipation of the Black Slaves. It is a symbol of that regime and its inherent racism. It does not matter how some in that region choose to view it, but it is always going to carry those connotations, regardless of what you want to argue.

Also a symbol of southern pride. The two are exclusive of course.

No, your argument is that it is not racist because Peter Griffin is not doing anything that is explicitly racist, but I am arguing that the symbol itself is racist, and therefore, regardless of what Peter is doing, the racism is already inherent in having the flag as image.

And I'm arguing it's not inherently racist. We have reached a dead-end here.

You may make the same argument about the Klansman outfit- that white outfit with the pointed hood does not necessarily represent the Klan, and may represent some other value to the wearer, just as the Flag is not necessarily a symbol of the Confederate Government and its inherent racism, and may represent some other value to he who owns it, and therefore, assuming that Peter's wearing of the Klan's hood is racist is begging the question, because the racism inherent in the hood itself as an image can be disputed.

That, however, is mere sophistry.

The racism in the hood itself cannot be disputed, as it wasn't used by any party for the last two hundred years except for the Klan. The S&B, however, was used by soldiers of WWII, rednecks, a popular show, and people emulating that show.

I admit that the fasces is a poor example, because its historic connection to the Roman Republic, which diffuse it throughout the western world as one symbol or another, for example, in America, in France, as symbols of republicanism. The aforementioned flag is a more apt symbol, because of its obvious military connotation, and which some Japanese, the extreme right, view as a symbol of Japanese pride in their nation and the Japanese spirit. Regardless of how a minority of people, even within the South, view the Stars and Bars, the fact remains that it is firmly entrenched with racist connotation from the mere fact that it represent the Confederacy and its raison d'etre, Slavery.

Except much of the south doesn't view the flag as inherently racist so much as a symbol of pride.

I should also note the main difference between the Hakenkreuz and the S&B is the former was paraded around as they killed "undesirables", while the latter… The latter probably wasn't on every slave-owner's arm, probably not even on their estate.

I should probably mention as well that the S&B is incorporated in the Mississippi flag, and the current Georgian flag bears resemblance to the CSA's first navy ensign.

[Mormak]

Robert M. T. Hunter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mer ... rro_Hunter

Member of the United States House of Representatives, Member of the Confederate Senate for Virginia, Voted against the initial constitution. Notable for not owning Slaves. Not an overly out spoken critic of it, but he did push for modernization and the development of southern industry. C.S.A Secretary of State, Later became the treasurer of Virginia.

You asked for a notable person who disagreed with the practice of Slavery, Was in the C.S.A Senate, And i did you one better.

Former House of representatives member, turned C.S.A Senator, turned Sec of State for their short lived confederation who was against the practice.

So...Does this mean i don't have to "quit" the field? Oh apologies for the delay, i needed a break from the thread.

Fun topic of discussion, but it does grate on the nerves with the back and forth after a while.

Ugh, it really does, doesn't it?

Where does it say that the slave issue was the reason that he voted against it? He may have been fine with the idea of others owning slaves for all that I know. Again, you're providing something vaguely, possibly suggestive, but not definitive.

Definite isn't something you often find with citations regarding politician's reasoning for action, He supported the buildup of non slave reliant infrastructure, he didn't own slaves, He still supported the Confederacy, He still voted against the initial constitution, he was expelled from the House for the support secession. He pushed for civil reform, he instituted the tariff of 1857. He is a notable enough person to have several deeds attributed to him, but not enough apparently for motivations to be established or even theorized.

I have looked for the past ten minutes for any mention of why he supported the Confederacy and did not vote in favor of their initial constitutional draft, despite supporting the Ordinance of secession. Got nothing but i do admit the pieces look nice together. So i support the notion that given his own lack of owning slaves, his pushing for industry with out slaves, and his own stance on civil reform, He was not abolitionist, but he did view Slavery as something that was fading, and wished to have the infrastructure in place, to not be reliant upon it.

So i think the evidence fits, but that's my perspective.

[Union of Confederate Socialist Republics]

(Image)

The confederate flag isn't racist. It's just a symbol of southern pride and has nothing to do with racism. The commonly used confederate flag was not even the actual flag used by the CSA. Many people that display this flag are completely unaware of it's history and a lot of them think it represents either Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Dukes of Hazzard. Even if it was racist, its display is protected free speech under the First Amendment.

All them bars are just pure evil. I mean look at them. And the flag is red.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

And the people who view the Hakenkreuz as a symbol of pride are nazis regardless. Meanwhile, the Confederate flag is used by non-racists without more than a glance.

Proof of either statements?

Also a symbol of southern pride. The two are exclusive of course.

A pride in a southern culture based around slavery, using imagry from a period that condoned and protected the degrigation of Black people.

And I'm arguing it's not inherently racist. We have reached a dead-end here.

Your argument from its popular culture use does not in the slightest advance that argument. It is inherently racist, and most of the viewers, who tend to not be southerners, would see it as racist, regardless of what a minority of southerners claim.

The racism in the hood itself cannot be disputed, as it wasn't used by any party for the last two hundred years except for the Klan. The S&B, however, was used by soldiers of WWII, rednecks, a popular show, and people emulating that show.

The S&B has been used by racist rednecks, by popular shows and emulators of that show with the knowing implication of its racism (which formed their stereotype of the south as racist inbreds), all of which connects back to its original use as the flag of the Confederate Government.

Except much of the south doesn't view the flag as inherently racist so much as a symbol of pride.

And the Japanese person doesn't view the flag as a symbol of oppression of their neighbour, Militarism, and their WWII war crime, but as a symbol of national pride, doesn't detract from the meanings that stems from its historic use during that period.

I should also note the main difference between the Hakenkreuz and the S&B is the former was paraded around as they killed "undesirables", while the latter… The latter probably wasn't on every slave-owner's arm, probably not even on their estate.

No, it was flown mast high to represent a government that kept Black people as slaves, animals.

I should probably mention as well that the S&B is incorporated in the Mississippi flag, and the current Georgian flag bears resemblance to the CSA's first navy ensign.

And is still a contentious point, with many, including myself, wanting it out of those flags entirely.

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

(Image)

The confederate flag isn't racist. It's just a symbol of southern pride and has nothing to do with racism. The commonly used confederate flag was not even the actual flag used by the CSA. Many people that display this flag are completely unaware of it's history and a lot of them think it represents either Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Dukes of Hazzard. Even if it was racist, its display is protected free speech under the First Amendment.

Its use, both historic and present, has always had the connotation of the Confederate south, even if it isn't the actual flag used. And that government is founded upon racism, so there's that. It is racist, and there is no way around it.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Except much of the south doesn't view the flag as inherently racist so much as a symbol of pride.

The problem is that a lot of people will tell you they are using it as a symbol of "Southern pride" and not anything racist, but then they will say and do racist things. This also happens with Southerners who aren't specifically waving the Confederate flag around, but they'll say how great the South is and tell you there is nothing racist about Southern culture, and then they'll say things that are very racially offensive. They will tell you one day, "I'm not racist," and the next day, "There's a lot of crime in Massachusetts because there are too many different skin colors." (The racist sentiments will vary; it's not always about crime in Massachusetts. That's just an example that I personally have heard from a guy from Georgia who swore he wasn't racist.)

So basically, no Northerner in their right mind will trust a Southerner when they say they are not racist because we've all heard it too many times. If 9 times out 10, the guy with the Confederate flag and the "Southern pride" turns out to be a racist douche, you can't really blame the North for concluding that Confederate flags are a sign of racism.

The South's view of it isn't necessarily accurate, since not all racists are conscious of their own racism.