Do you consider the Confederate flag to be racist

[Scholmeria]

Not all slaves were black so there is no issue of racism in the con flag.

The majority were. And that doesn't mean it wasn't racist.

Slave owners were people of all color just like slaves were people of all color. Now pleease explain how is this a race issue?

[Vettrera]

Floridian?

Hell no! I'm from the Great Free State of Texas!

There's a ton of things you're not free to do in Texas....or any state for that matter

[Free United States]

You're still stereotyping an entire region, and having lived in the South my whole life (twice as long as you), and being of a minority, I can tell you I have not seen any of that. In fact, the only racism I ever encountered was in the North, when I took my white girlfriend to a restaurant.

You must never have driven past the Georgia Peach Oyster Bar.

See, there's the problem - if you're going to argue that the south is NOT a racist, sexist, homophobic, religiously-intolerant hellhole - you can't possibly win - because I can find ten thousand examples, and even ONE blows a hole in the argument of this tolerant paradise you seem to believe it is.

Actually, no that's not how it works. See, because I can find many more examples of tolerant people in the South.

[Grave_n_idle]

Yes. The south isn't universally friendly. Hell, try being foreign in Arizona if you want to see unfriendly.

Like I said, I've encountered more racism in the North than I have in my 26 years living in the South.

Maybe. Personally, I think if we had some kind of 'google war' where we each found examples of racism in the north versus the south, I'd find it far easier to support my argument.

[Pandeeria]

You know, to actually be represented within the government.

No they wanted money.

And to be represented.

Pinpointing a revolution to one cause isn't realistic.

[Utceforp]

No. I am not referring to the war. I could care less about the war. What I am saying is that their productivity was achieved through the enslavement of human beings. They knew that. That is why they fought and instigated others into fighting. If it is a symbol of the American citizen fighting for a right to productivity, then it is also a symbol of the American citizen's right to productivity utilizing any means necessary, including the enslavement of human beings which they deemed to be inferior.

Slaves aren't people, they're property and property is either productive or it's trashed. The American people can never be defined by an institution so worldwide that nearly every country on Earth enslaved another race for a large period of time. My people, Americans, are defined by what we do now, not by what our ancestors did then.

I think the slaves would disagree with you on that point...

[Free United States]

How is that different from what Grave n Idle has been posting?

I've haven't been reading what he's been posting, nor have I said or implied I agree with what he's posting.

Link me an example please.

Go back about two pages. All he's been saying is "when I was in [state] X happened to me..."

[Benuty]

It wasn't the North that was right but the government [the medium of all corners of the U.S].

The government of the North?

I should have specified the duly elected government of the U.S.

[Grave_n_idle]

You must never have driven past the Georgia Peach Oyster Bar.

See, there's the problem - if you're going to argue that the south is NOT a racist, sexist, homophobic, religiously-intolerant hellhole - you can't possibly win - because I can find ten thousand examples, and even ONE blows a hole in the argument of this tolerant paradise you seem to believe it is.

Actually, no that's not how it works. See, because I can find many more examples of tolerant people in the South.

Really? How would you prove they were tolerant?

See - if the south is really that friendly to foreigners (homosexuals, women, racial minorities) etc - then I shouldn't be able to bring examples (after examples, after examples) to the table.

[Pandeeria]

Like I said, I've encountered more racism in the North than I have in my 26 years living in the South.

Maybe. Personally, I think if we had some kind of 'google war' where we each found examples of racism in the north versus the south, I'd find it far easier to support my argument.

I found this in five seconds.

Though disclaimer, I haven't read it other then the title. I'm just throwing this out here.

[-The West Coast-]

To the men and women of the South, Lincoln singled an end to their prosperity and their growth as a region and a culture in and of their own. They believed he would bring a great many punishments on them for a practice that was universal for nearly 400 years. So they did what every American did in 1776 and they fought for what they believed was right. They fought for a free and independent South to preserve their ideals.

I hate to break this to you, but most of "us" did not fight for that. You have an overly simplistic and idealized image of history which simply is not true. Most people were fighting to protect their homes and that is really it. They did not want to be a part of invading someone else, and they did not want troops marching through their homes. This concept of soldiers rushing off for grandiose ideas is generally a myth. I'm sure there were a few like that...... but a minority, and mostly at the top. But it hardly represents the average Johnny Reb at the line.

You were a soldier once, and I'm a soldier now. My belief in the people of the South at the time most certainly was universal for them. They may not have wanted to invade, and they truly didn't have to invade to actually win the war, but what they were doing was preventing their homes and their towns from being held and occupied like they were under the Jackson presidency. They were fighting to protect themselves, their homes and the ideals and beliefs of the states they all belonged to.

[Xyrx]

No I don't it's just a flag of a country. Same with the swastika, it's just a religious symbol. Nothing much, just flags of countries.

[Seperates]

Or they need to move out of 5th grade history class and learn about what happened in the Philippines at the end of the 1800's... Or what happened in Central America during the 50's and 60's... Or, heck, a sizable portion of the modern Middle East sees the flag as a symbol of Western oppression.

Symbols mean things in specific contexts. They are not universally meaningful, nor do they have universal meaning.

Oh of course! Cry for the terrible things that ONLY AMERICA did! Of course, every other country including the largest land-owning state on Earth did was correct and never wrong, but when it comes to the United States of America, we're always held accountable for what our ancestors did generations ago. Yes, let us lament the sins of our ONLY our forefathers as if we were alive to stop it now, in 2014, hundreds of years later.

Every nation-state, at some point in time, has done some horrible crap. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your argument. What you said was that the flag of the US is 'not oppressive'. I contradicted in saying that, actually, the flag of the US has been, and in some place still is, a symbol of oppression. That's it. I'm not making any grandiose statements, like you seem to be insinuating. So cut the melo-drama.

[Socialist Czechia]

Yes. He was rich and powerful person, as well as others, Franklin, Jefferson, Hancock, Adams, take your pick, but they wanted more. Why keep sending taxes to King on the second side of ocean, when then can write own laws, create own country to rule?

You know, to actually be represented within the government.

What I am saying, that rebellion wasn't act supported by huge majority of masses. Elitist, rich circles started it.
But in the end, return under British crown was unthinkable, because too much blood was spilled. And they knew it. Washington needed only war and suffering to achieve his goals.

[Oaledonia]

Thats a load of crap. Black people should get over something that happened 200 years ago and didn't even happen to them! I have zero fucking white guilt because none of family owned slaves we came over here after the Civil war.

You're waving the flag of something you and your family have no historical connection to?

Typical edgy teens, welcome to NSG.

I've haven't been reading what he's been posting, nor have I said or implied I agree with what he's posting.

Link me an example please.

Go back about two pages. All he's been saying is "when I was in [state] X happened to me..."

I don't understand the point of your statement, are you trying to insinuate that the North was just as guilty because it didn't represent the US government, yet the Northern states didn't rebel?

[-The West Coast-]

Slaves aren't people, they're property and property is either productive or it's trashed. The American people can never be defined by an institution so worldwide that nearly every country on Earth enslaved another race for a large period of time. My people, Americans, are defined by what we do now, not by what our ancestors did then.

I think the slaves would disagree with you on that point...

Luckily for me, slaves don't get a say in matters of men.

[Imperializt Russia]

Slaves aren't people, they're property and property is either productive or it's trashed. The American people can never be defined by an institution so worldwide that nearly every country on Earth enslaved another race for a large period of time. My people, Americans, are defined by what we do now, not by what our ancestors did then.

I think the slaves would disagree with you on that point...

You can disagree with authority all you like, authority will shove its boot deep inside you either way.

Whether right or wrong.

[Wisconsin9]

I hate to break this to you, but most of "us" did not fight for that. You have an overly simplistic and idealized image of history which simply is not true. Most people were fighting to protect their homes and that is really it. They did not want to be a part of invading someone else, and they did not want troops marching through their homes. This concept of soldiers rushing off for grandiose ideas is generally a myth. I'm sure there were a few like that...... but a minority, and mostly at the top. But it hardly represents the average Johnny Reb at the line.

You were a soldier once, and I'm a soldier now. My belief in the people of the South at the time most certainly was universal for them. They may not have wanted to invade, and they truly didn't have to invade to actually win the war, but what they were doing was preventing their homes and their towns from being held and occupied like they were under the Jackson presidency. They were fighting to protect themselves, their homes and the ideals and beliefs of the states they all belonged to.

Their homes wouldn't have been occupied if they hadn't revolted in the first place.

[Westerheim]

No. I am not referring to the war. I could care less about the war. What I am saying is that their productivity was achieved through the enslavement of human beings. They knew that. That is why they fought and instigated others into fighting. If it is a symbol of the American citizen fighting for a right to productivity, then it is also a symbol of the American citizen's right to productivity utilizing any means necessary, including the enslavement of human beings which they deemed to be inferior.

Slaves aren't people, they're property and property is either productive or it's trashed. The American people can never be defined by an institution so worldwide that nearly every country on Earth enslaved another race for a large period of time. My people, Americans, are defined by what we do now, not by what our ancestors did then.

The slaves themselves are still people. Just because something is imposed upon them doesn't mean it detracts from their true and actual existence and identity.
Further reading: nationalism, the Troubles and Ireland, reasons why the Soviet Union fell apart (section: forced Russification)

[Pandeeria]

I've haven't been reading what he's been posting, nor have I said or implied I agree with what he's posting.

Link me an example please.

Go back about two pages. All he's been saying is "when I was in [state] X happened to me..."

I don't agree then with his means of arguing, but I agree with his final idea on this topic.

The government of the North?

I should have specified the duly elected government of the U.S.

Oh.

Didn't the confederacy just have a more pro-majority and anti-minority version of the current government?

[Free United States]

Actually, no that's not how it works. See, because I can find many more examples of tolerant people in the South.

Really? How would you prove they were tolerant?

See - if the south is really that friendly to foreigners (homosexuals, women, racial minorities) etc - then I shouldn't be able to bring examples (after examples, after examples) to the table.

That doesn't prove anything except racists exist in the South. I'm not denying that, only that your over-generalization is discriminatory and biased. Every major college campus in the South, for the most part, has an LGBT organization, freedom riders regularly protect funerals from the WBC etc.

[Wisconsin9]

What they did wasn't treason, dear sweet child.

It is, by definition.

[Pandeeria]

You know, to actually be represented within the government.

What I am saying, that rebellion wasn't act supported by huge majority of masses. Elitist, rich circles started it.
But in the end, return under British crown was unthinkable, because too much blood was spilled. And they knew it. Washington needed only war and suffering to achieve his goals.

I guess I kinda agree.

Our founding fathers were hypocrites though.

[Grave_n_idle]

Really? How would you prove they were tolerant?

See - if the south is really that friendly to foreigners (homosexuals, women, racial minorities) etc - then I shouldn't be able to bring examples (after examples, after examples) to the table.

That doesn't prove anything except racists exist in the South. I'm not denying that, only that your over-generalization is discriminatory and biased.

So the south is "awesome because it's friendly" is NOT an over-generalization but saying "um, that's not true" IS?

Do you not see how flawed that argument is?

[-The West Coast-]

Slaves aren't people, they're property and property is either productive or it's trashed. The American people can never be defined by an institution so worldwide that nearly every country on Earth enslaved another race for a large period of time. My people, Americans, are defined by what we do now, not by what our ancestors did then.

The slaves themselves are still people. Just because something is imposed upon them doesn't mean it detracts from their true and actual existence and identity.
Further reading: nationalism, the Troubles and Ireland, reasons why the Soviet Union fell apart (section: forced Russification)

Don't tell me what to read, I'm not a child. A slave is a slave no matter what it thinks it is.