Land ownership debate

[Death Metal]

Threats of immediate consequences are coercive forces. Just because a use of force is beneficial does not make it not a use of force.

Also, you pay rent for access and use of public services. It's no different from living in an apartment. Being anti-tax is the same as being anti-capitalist in the end; why do you get to refuse to pay for services provided for you after they've already been provided?

I'm still not following. "Steal from me and I shoot you" is not the same as "pay your taxes or off to jail with you"

Actually, they are exactly the same. They are both threats warning of immediate consequences for taking certain actions. Just because you like one threat and not the other does not make them objectively different.

[THe Good of the verldz]

God hates Thugs! Land Ownership is good for GOD. Embrace me, I am him!!!!

[Nervium]

Only if you grow breadfruit, otherwise owning land is useless.

[Llamalandia]

[/b]


Yeah, that would be called central planning and it tends not to work out very well. They tried it in the USSR didn't go so well. Markets remain the best ways to signal the distribution of goods based on wants and needs.

I don't advocate central planning, I've never advocated central planning.

ok well if your system is neither free market nor centrally planned then what is it called exactly? Other than just communism what is the specific mechanism for measuring need and allocating supply accordingly?

[Dejanic]

If you and a group of people wanted to run away somewhere remote and play Capitalist I couldn't care less, obviously if their was 4 of you and you claimed 1000 acres of farmable land right next to a large Commune then their would probably be a problem, but other than that I couldn't really care.

Why would that be a problem? Can your commune not keep up with the competition?

I still don't think you get it. I don't advocate Market Socialism. Their would be nothing to compete with, the Commune would provide the goods for free.

[North Yakistan]

I'm still not following. "Steal from me and I shoot you" is not the same as "pay your taxes or off to jail with you"


So if I go to my property and live entirely off the grid like a mountain man I don't need to pay taxes? Cause that's not how it works here. I would certainly cut ties to public services in exchange for no longe paying taxes.

Umm property tax yes, income tax no. (provided you have no or very little monetary income). Food produced and consumed on farms or for the purpose of subsistence is exempt from income taxation if I recall correctly.

Why must I pay property tax? I am in no way seeing any benefit from my funds. Why do I have to pay money to some group just because they claim sovereignty over my land? Again if I come to your house and try to charge you rent that's rediculous. How's government any different?

[North Yakistan]

I'm still not following. "Steal from me and I shoot you" is not the same as "pay your taxes or off to jail with you"

Actually, they are exactly the same. They are both threats warning of immediate consequences for taking certain actions. Just because you like one threat and not the other does not make them objectively different.

No, I have never contracted with the government to pay taxes in exchange for services. The services are provided to me and I'm then charged. I can't hand you an apple and demand a dollar if you don't want the apple

[Conscentia]

[...] My family jointly owns 280 Acres of timber and farmland. It's used only for hunting and recreation except for an area rented to our cousin for farming.

Says who? How did you obtain ownership? Who says you own it?

I'd this exceptable?

Thy typo is not acceptable.

Is our renting of land somehow exploitive?

Well you are exploiting the cousin's need for farmland...

[Bolrieg]

It is your land you can do whatever you want with it and it is their choice if they want to rent it off you, don't let anyone tell you different.

[Geilinor]

Umm property tax yes, income tax no. (provided you have no or very little monetary income). Food produced and consumed on farms or for the purpose of subsistence is exempt from income taxation if I recall correctly.

Why must I pay property tax? I am in no way seeing any benefit from my funds. Why do I have to pay money to some group just because they claim sovereignty over my land? Again if I come to your house and try to charge you rent that's rediculous. How's government any different?

Public education, roads, police, military, etc.

[North Yakistan]

Why would that be a problem? Can your commune not keep up with the competition?

I still don't think you get it. I don't advocate Market Socialism. Their would be nothing to compete with, the Commune would provide the goods for free.

Ok, what if everyone gets a loaf of bread and a 6 pack of Yogurt a week, but Jim is Glutin intolerant. Can he trade his bread for more yogurt?

[THe Good of the verldz]

[...] My family jointly owns 280 Acres of timber and farmland. It's used only for hunting and recreation except for an area rented to our cousin for farming.

How? Says who? Who says you own it?

I'd this exceptable?

Thy typo is not acceptable.

Is our renting of land somehow exploitive?

Well you are exploiting the cousin's need for farmland...

1.I am GOD I say so!
2. Yes every un-exceptable he go to Heil now!
3.Good, exploit, gawd endorses you!

[Northwest Slobovia]

Agreed. There are bad regulations, but also a lot of beneficial ones. Having to play Russian Roulette with my milk is something I'd rather not do, for one.

But if a farmer is selling unsafe milk people will tell eachother the milk is unsafe

Only if they can figure it out. See, if people get sick, they don't just happen to know what's causing it. They go to doctors, who make diagnoses (ie, food poisoning) and from there, they might be able to figure out the cause. Maybe.

Here in the US, the evil government collects food poisoning information -- they force doctors to tell them about it -- and uses that to spot outbreaks. That's followed by attempts to locate patients, figure out where they've eaten, and then isolate the source(s) of the contamination, which involves the vicious use of mandatory record-keeping, sadistic unannounced inspections, and cruel and unusual seizure of suspected contaminated food. These routine, casual abuses of human rights are just too horrible to consider! We must overthrow the brutal FDA regime in the name of freedom and diarrhea!

[Dejanic]

I don't advocate central planning, I've never advocated central planning.

ok well if your system is neither free market nor centrally planned then what is it called exactly? Other than just communism what is the specific mechanism for measuring need and allocating supply accordingly?

It would be idealistic of me to describe perfectly a system that doesn't exist and is completely theoretical, but probably through decentralised workers councils (though as it would be a classless society, they wouldn't be called workers), participatory planning, etc.

The central planning that took place under the USSR was supposedly the transitional stage towards Communism, it's not a system I support, my views are very far removed from Stalinists.

[North Yakistan]

Why must I pay property tax? I am in no way seeing any benefit from my funds. Why do I have to pay money to some group just because they claim sovereignty over my land? Again if I come to your house and try to charge you rent that's rediculous. How's government any different?

Public education, roads, police, military, etc.

If I'm living on my own property homeschooling my kids I have no need for these things. I would gladly turn them all down in exchange for tax exemption.

[Dejanic]

I still don't think you get it. I don't advocate Market Socialism. Their would be nothing to compete with, the Commune would provide the goods for free.

Ok, what if everyone gets a loaf of bread and a 6 pack of Yogurt a week, but Jim is Glutin intolerant. Can he trade his bread for more yogurt?

Things wouldn't be handed out like that, you'd take what you want (within reason), if Jim is gluten intolerant, then he doesn't have to pick up any bread from the local food centre.

My dad is gluten intolerant, so this is an issue that's very close to my heart.

[Death Metal]

Actually, they are exactly the same. They are both threats warning of immediate consequences for taking certain actions. Just because you like one threat and not the other does not make them objectively different.

No, I have never contracted with the government to pay taxes in exchange for services.

Your continued citizenship is your contract. Entered into by yourself through immigration, else by your parents through power of attorney through your birth or immigration (if you immigrated underage).

If you live in a society, and reap the benefits thereof, you agree to society's rules.

[North Yakistan]

But if a farmer is selling unsafe milk people will tell eachother the milk is unsafe

Only if they can figure it out. See, if people get sick, they don't just happen to know what's causing it. They go to doctors, who make diagnoses (ie, food poisoning) and from there, they might be able to figure out the cause. Maybe.

Here in the US, the evil government collects food poisoning information -- they force doctors to tell them about it -- and uses that to spot outbreaks. That's followed by attempts to locate patients, figure out where they've eaten, and then isolate the source(s) of the contamination, which involves the vicious use of mandatory record-keeping, sadistic unannounced inspections, and cruel and unusual seizure of suspected contaminated food. These routine, casual abuses of human rights are just too horrible to consider! We must overthrow the brutal FDA regime in the name of freedom and diarrhea!

And it does it far less efficiently than the free market could.

[Death Metal]

Public education, roads, police, military, etc.

If I'm living on my own property homeschooling my kids I have no need for these things.

I call bullshit. Even the Amish use public roads and the police.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Only if they can figure it out. See, if people get sick, they don't just happen to know what's causing it. They go to doctors, who make diagnoses (ie, food poisoning) and from there, they might be able to figure out the cause. Maybe.

Here in the US, the evil government collects food poisoning information -- they force doctors to tell them about it -- and uses that to spot outbreaks. That's followed by attempts to locate patients, figure out where they've eaten, and then isolate the source(s) of the contamination, which involves the vicious use of mandatory record-keeping, sadistic unannounced inspections, and cruel and unusual seizure of suspected contaminated food. These routine, casual abuses of human rights are just too horrible to consider! We must overthrow the brutal FDA regime in the name of freedom and diarrhea!

And it does it far less efficiently than the free market could.

Your evidence, please.

...and specifically, your evidence that it could be done without coercion.

[European Socialist Republic]

Public education, roads, police, military, etc.

If I'm living on my own property homeschooling my kids I have no need for these things. I would gladly turn them all down in exchange for tax exemption.

Actually, you'd still need a police and a military. Unless you think your shotgun is enough to keep out the Chinese.

[Conscentia]

And it does it far less efficiently than the free market could.

How do you know? You do not, that statement is pure conjecture.

[Death Metal]

And it does it far less efficiently than the free market could.

And if that were true, Congress would have never had to create the FDA in the first place.

[/dropsmic]

[Islamic republiq of Julundar]

You are asking 5 questions, what is the moral way to deal with the Land: now versus when the Great and glorious Revolution comes versus in a few years time versus etc.

Come the Revolution, your land will be confiscated, your family gets as much land as it needs and other families get portions too.

Dust Bowl
Likewise, we need to leave some land un-worked. Maybe the Soviet of Workers' Deputies will elect your clan to be Park Rangers,

|In a few years time, the Capitalists will put you in debt and confiscate your land anyway.

[North Yakistan]

No, I have never contracted with the government to pay taxes in exchange for services.

Your continued citizenship is your contract. Entered into by yourself through immigration, else by your parents through power of attorney through your birth or immigration (if you immigrated underage).

If you live in a society, and reap the benefits thereof, you agree to society's rules.

so if I renounce my citizenship and remain on my property I don't have to pay tax's? And what if I dint want to tie my children to the state via power of attorney?

The social contract is an absolute joke.