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The eroding influence of the left

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Arumdaum
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The eroding influence of the left

Postby Arumdaum » Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:58 pm

Left-wing politics have been on the decline for a considerable while, from about the 1970s. The Eastern Bloc has collapsed and numerous previously state capitalist countries are now undergoing or have undergone economic liberalization (China, Vietnam with doi moi, North Korea, Cuba).
Countries in the former Eastern Bloc have been notoriously eager to economically liberalize. Russia is a good example, with the rapid privatization of state owned businesses during the 1990s and the implementation of a flat income tax under Putin.

Within the West, traditionally center-right parties have since headed far to the right, with traditionally proletarian and center-left parties following them in advocating neoliberal policies (Bill Clinton, Tony Blair). This includes the French Socialist Party and the German Social Democratic Party (which was founded as a Marxist party), both of which no longer seriously advocate socialism. The Italian Communist Party, Italy's former largest opposition party which captured 35% of the vote in 1976, has since also headed far to the right along with its other center-left/left-wing counterparts in the West. It has since been succeeded by the Democratic Party.

In Japan, the historic center-left party, the Socialist Party, has since fallen apart as Socialist voters flocked to parties created out of a fracturing of the center-right Liberal Democratic Party. Japan's only major left-wing party left, the Japanese Communist Party, although getting 12.55% of the vote in the 1996 general election, now only gets a fraction of that percentage. The Japanese Communist Party has also been attempting to moderate itself through the adoption of pink as one of its colors and the acceptance of the Emperor.

Despite India officially being a socialist nation according to its constitution (added by Indira Gandhi), it has also since undergone economic liberalization, most notably under former Prime Minister P. V. Narasimha Rao. It should also be noted that P. V. Narasimha Rao was from the Indian National Congress, a formerly left-wing party which added the amendment to India's constitution defining it as a socialist nation under Indira Gandhi.

The African nation of Angola has long been dominated by the formerly Marxist-Leninist MPLA, but the MPLA now denotes itself as merely a "social democratic" party and is dominated by a wealthy mestico elite which enjoys making contracts with international oil companies. The wealth inequality present in Angola is astounding, with rich regions getting richer and many regions in the impoverished interior getting even poorer.
The meaning of being left-wing has changed considerably over the years. Nowadays, especially among the younger people on the Internet, it's popular to be a "social democrat." This is considered left-wing, and it is, but people often define themselves as such without understanding that social democracy advocates for a democratic transition into socialism, rather than the 'friendly capitalism' and "Third Way" policies they support.
These people on the Internet, of course, are the next generation and will be heavily influential. The rise of "libertarianism" also helps to denote the world's increasing turn toward the right, especially as "libertarians" often advocate more serious economic liberalization than those in center-right and right-wing major parties.

Is the left doomed to fade away into irrelevance? Or is the current global trend toward economic liberalization merely another phase in history preceding a trend toward the left? In 1992, Francis Fukuyama argued that liberal democracies and free market capitalism marked the end of history. However, it's unlikely that this is true, and the position is merely representative of the presentism.

I think that the left will make an eventual comeback, but unfortunately not in the near future. I think that the adoption of the "Third Way" and right wing economics by traditionally center-left parties in developed countries worldwide has changed people's perception of what is left, and causes people to view ideas to the left of that as radical and unconventional.

What are your thoughts?
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The Scientific States
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Postby The Scientific States » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:20 pm

I, for one, am glad that left wing politics are eroding, but I doubt it'll stay this way. Third Way politics is slowly beginning to fade away, which can be seen in many countries. Take the UK, for example. Milliband, a person whose politics are similar to that of 1970's or 80's Labour is now leader, and stuff like this is happening in other social democratic parties.

For now, Neoliberalism and the like are the norm, which is fine.
Last edited by The Scientific States on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:22 pm

There will be sometime where poor people's lives will suck so much, that they will get too frustrated to be brainwashed by organized religion as historically and get revolutionary once more.

We need just another liter in a 10 million gallon reservoir in Brazil for that to happen. And it will, if the people put a right-wing party at the top again and it turns out to fuck our lives just like Fernando Henrique did in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I don't want to catch dengue fever or stand to week-long blackouts again myself. In São Paulo, where they didn't transition to centre-left politics as most of the country and stayed with Fernando Henrique's party, they now are very close to not having enough water to take showers (some are already doing it in neighbor's houses) or washing their dishes.

And then the moderate liberal lack of empathy will be foolish.
Last edited by Degenerate Heart of HetRio on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Llamalandia » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:27 pm

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:There will be sometime where poor people's lives will suck so much, that they will get too frustrated to be brainwashed by organized religion as historically and get revolutionary once more.

We need just another liter in a 10 million gallon reservoir in Brazil for that to happen. And it will, if the people put a right-wing party at the top again and it turns out to fuck our lives just like Fernando Henrique did in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I don't want to catch dengue fever or stand to week-long blackouts again myself. In São Paulo, where they didn't transition to left-wing politics, they now are very close to not having enough water to take showers (some are already doing it in neighbor's houses) or washing their dishes.

And then the moderate liberal lack of empathy will be foolish.


Wow, so your going full on commie with the whole religion==opiate of the masses eh? :eyebrow:

I really don't think religion has the same impact it used too. Besides, was the catholic church involved/is involved to some extent with social and economic justice anyway? I don't think the Papa Francis sits around with fortune 500 ceo's thinking of ways he can help screw over poor people. ;)

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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:28 pm

Llamalandia wrote:Wow, so your going full on commie with the whole religion==opiate of the masses eh? :eyebrow:

I really don't think religion has the same impact it used too. Besides, was the catholic church involved/is involved to some extent with social and economic justice anyway? I don't think the Papa Francis sits around with fortune 500 ceo's thinking of ways he can help screw over poor people. ;)

The Roman Catholic Church is now mostly irrelevant. It's opiate of the traditional bourgeoisie values.

What helps making poor people dumber right now are obviously fundamentalist sects of Christianity including plenty of lines followed by Evangelicals and Pentecostals. Just watch as they say Easter eggs are a tool of Satan here in Brazil.
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:42 pm

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:Wow, so your going full on commie with the whole religion==opiate of the masses eh? :eyebrow:

I really don't think religion has the same impact it used too. Besides, was the catholic church involved/is involved to some extent with social and economic justice anyway? I don't think the Papa Francis sits around with fortune 500 ceo's thinking of ways he can help screw over poor people. ;)

The Roman Catholic Church is now mostly irrelevant. It's opiate of the traditional bourgeoisie values.

What helps making poor people dumber right now are obviously fundamentalist sects of Christianity including plenty of lines followed by Evangelicals and Pentecostals. Just watch as they say Easter eggs are a tool of Satan here in Brazil.


As a general entity, the Catholic Church, although traditional leaning, has always goodwill to all mankind through a spirit of international brotherhood and charity. Sound familiar?

On topic: I think the liberalization of the economy is a good thing, as it signals a turn to international global prosperity that will lift everyone out of poverty. We can put the pipe dream of communism to rest, and fully realize the true utopia of our time to be brought about by liberal capitalism.
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Degenerate Heart of HetRio
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:46 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:As a general entity, the Catholic Church, although traditional leaning, has always goodwill to all mankind through a spirit of international brotherhood and charity. Sound familiar?

That's why an Albanian fascist who only did a social project in Bengal that said the poor came to the world as such to learn to be loved by God through pain and death and treated people not with painkillers and anesthetics that she hated oh-so-much in completely otherwise easy issues like ovarian cysts had to stand the pain through rosaries... But when she had health problems herself, she was the first to rush to Switzerland. And now she's a saint, and people mention that monster as an example of good person.
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:57 pm

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:As a general entity, the Catholic Church, although traditional leaning, has always goodwill to all mankind through a spirit of international brotherhood and charity. Sound familiar?

That's why an Albanian fascist who only did a social project in Bengal that said the poor came to the world as such to learn to be loved by God through pain and death and treated people not with painkillers and anesthetics that she hated oh-so-much in completely otherwise easy issues like ovarian cysts had to stand the pain through rosaries... But when she had health problems herself, she was the first to rush to Switzerland. And now she's a saint, and people mention that monster as an example of good person.


I am not sure who you are talking about, but regardless, one person does not define a movement. (Unless it's Hitler or Ayn Rand).

Tell me this. Stalin called himself a communist, used communist symbolism, and preached communism, but does he define communism? Do communists typically accept Stalin? Don't believe that ideology is immune to the same pitfalls religion has, such as opposing factions, ideological chauvinism, people fighting over what constitutes as "real" or the "truth," whatever.
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Postby Degenerate Heart of HetRio » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:03 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:Tell me this. Stalin called himself a communist, used communist symbolism, and preached communism, but does he define communism? Do communists typically accept Stalin? Don't believe that ideology is immune to the same pitfalls religion has, such as opposing factions, ideological chauvinism, people fighting over what constitutes as "real" or the "truth," whatever.

The thing is, the Roman Catholic Church isn't an ideology, it's an [evil] institution, the same institution who says people like Mother Theresa are examples of human beings when they might be some of the most wicked and miserableness-causing in existence.
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Postby Aequalitia » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:10 pm

The Scientific States wrote:I, for one, am glad that left wing politics are eroding, but I doubt it'll stay this way. Third Way politics is slowly beginning to fade away, which can be seen in many countries. Take the UK, for example. Milliband, a person whose politics are similar to that of 1970's or 80's Labour is now leader, and stuff like this is happening in other social democratic parties.

For now, Neoliberalism and the like are the norm, which is fine.

Neoliberalism is like a slow inferno, it starts with a small flame, but at the end the fire is so big and destroyed everything.
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Postby The Scientific States » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:32 pm

Aequalitia wrote:
The Scientific States wrote:I, for one, am glad that left wing politics are eroding, but I doubt it'll stay this way. Third Way politics is slowly beginning to fade away, which can be seen in many countries. Take the UK, for example. Milliband, a person whose politics are similar to that of 1970's or 80's Labour is now leader, and stuff like this is happening in other social democratic parties.

For now, Neoliberalism and the like are the norm, which is fine.

Neoliberalism is like a slow inferno, it starts with a small flame, but at the end the fire is so big and destroyed everything.


I'm not a neoliberal, but it's not a bad ideology, nor is it very good. It's not a inferno, in my opinion, since neoliberalism has done some good things, and it hasn't done anything too disastrous.
Last edited by The Scientific States on Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thafoo » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:43 pm

The Scientific States wrote:
Aequalitia wrote:Neoliberalism is like a slow inferno, it starts with a small flame, but at the end the fire is so big and destroyed everything.


I'm not a neoliberal, but it's not a bad ideology, nor is it very good. It's not a inferno, in my opinion, since neoliberalism has done some good things, and it hasn't done anything too disastrous.

It's great when you make it a part of the Nordic Model. Mostly because it actually works and still is working.

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Postby Canaore » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:45 pm

The Scientific States wrote:
Aequalitia wrote:Neoliberalism is like a slow inferno, it starts with a small flame, but at the end the fire is so big and destroyed everything.


I'm not a neoliberal, but it's not a bad ideology, nor is it very good. It's not a inferno, in my opinion, since neoliberalism has done some good things, and it hasn't done anything too disastrous.


"Neoliberalism" is nothing more than a buzzword used to refer to anything that's a bit further to the right than your average European social democratic party.

It never had anything to do with the Austrian School. In the late 80's, it was reasonable to equate "Neoliberalism" with the Chicago economic thought, but after that, the term started being applied to politicians that at some point, for some reason, dared to privatize something.

Ultimately, it's like "facsist". The word has no actual meaning. It has nothing to do with economic freedom, minimal statism, low taxes and etc. The term was used to describe a wide range of policies and politicians that had few, if any similarities. It became meaningless. So if you're against the left-wing, you're either a fascist or a neoliberal. Probably both.
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Postby Punkvania » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:47 pm

Thafoo wrote:
The Scientific States wrote:
I'm not a neoliberal, but it's not a bad ideology, nor is it very good. It's not a inferno, in my opinion, since neoliberalism has done some good things, and it hasn't done anything too disastrous.

It's great when you make it a part of the Nordic Model. Mostly because it actually works and still is working.


I certainly want to be with a Nordic model myself.
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Postby Avenio » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:48 pm

The Scientific States wrote:
Aequalitia wrote:Neoliberalism is like a slow inferno, it starts with a small flame, but at the end the fire is so big and destroyed everything.


I'm not a neoliberal, but it's not a bad ideology, nor is it very good. It's not a inferno, in my opinion, since neoliberalism has done some good things, and it hasn't done anything too disastrous.


American neoliberalism of the Clintonian sort was responsible for gutting the Glass-Steagall Act, which in turn lit the fuse for the 2008 financial crisis.

I'd say that's pretty disastrous.
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Postby Thafoo » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:49 pm

Avenio wrote:American neoliberalism

Now there's your problem.

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Postby Canaore » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:49 pm

I for one, welcome the decline of the left-wing with open arms.
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Postby Avenio » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:00 pm

Thafoo wrote:
Avenio wrote:American neoliberalism

Now there's your problem.


Part of the problem. Neoliberalism in other countries was pretty awful too; Prime Minister Brian "The Chin" Mulroney's signing of NAFTA pretty much gutted Canadian manufacturing, and I would imagine most Brits are not too happy about the progressive piecemeal privatization of the NHS over the last 20 years.

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Postby The Scientific States » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:03 pm

Thafoo wrote:
Avenio wrote:American neoliberalism

Now there's your problem.


No kidding. I don't like a lot of aspects of neoliberalism, for reasons Avenio brought up, but the American definition of neoliberalism is different from what people consider neoliberalism elsewhere. The American political spectrum is very right wing.
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Postby Yanalia » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:07 pm

I think the left will return in time. Obviously the influence of neo-liberalism has gained greatly and pretty much all mainstream political parties have to accept its economic thinking on some level. Ultimately I think that as one side of the spectrum gains, proponents of the other grow angrier and more likely to act, while supporters grow complacent. So as peole get angrier at the right's negative influence, we'll have greater support as a reaction.
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Postby Avenio » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:14 pm

The Scientific States wrote:
Thafoo wrote:Now there's your problem.


No kidding. I don't like a lot of aspects of neoliberalism, for reasons Avenio brought up, but the American definition of neoliberalism is different from what people consider neoliberalism elsewhere. The American political spectrum is very right wing.


It's really not all that different, though. Neoliberalism didn't just begin in America, nor did the American 'brand' just stay there, either. Particularly in the Anglosphere there was a period of intense cross-pollination between political parties beginning in the 1980's - Thatcher, Reagan and Mulroney were all cut from the same economic cloth, and their successors (no matter the party) were all beholden to that new political order.

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Postby Libertarian California » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:14 am

The increasing radicalization of the right in the Western World is a natural response to current trends.

And no, the collapse of the Eastern Bloc does not signify the eroding influence of the left. It just means that the left isn't going to be carrying around red banners and Kalashnikovs anymore.
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:24 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:Tell me this. Stalin called himself a communist, used communist symbolism, and preached communism, but does he define communism? Do communists typically accept Stalin? Don't believe that ideology is immune to the same pitfalls religion has, such as opposing factions, ideological chauvinism, people fighting over what constitutes as "real" or the "truth," whatever.

The thing is, the Roman Catholic Church isn't an ideology, it's an [evil] institution, the same institution who says people like Mother Theresa are examples of human beings when they might be some of the most wicked and miserableness-causing in existence.


The Church itself? No. But people acting in it's name, yes.

Plus, I cannot see how the heck an institution run on charity and good will that asks for NOTHING is evil.
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Postby Libertarian California » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:26 am

Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:Tell me this. Stalin called himself a communist, used communist symbolism, and preached communism, but does he define communism? Do communists typically accept Stalin? Don't believe that ideology is immune to the same pitfalls religion has, such as opposing factions, ideological chauvinism, people fighting over what constitutes as "real" or the "truth," whatever.

The thing is, the Roman Catholic Church isn't an ideology, it's an [evil] institution, the same institution who says people like Mother Theresa are examples of human beings when they might be some of the most wicked and miserableness-causing in existence.


I agree. The Catholic Church is evil.

Ironically, I attend a Catholic school, and I really like it.
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Postby Lemanrussland » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:32 am

I wouldn't say the left is dead, it just needed to evolve to survive. "Third way" policies and syncretism were a natural reaction by the center-left parties to the rise of the right wing and conservatism in the Anglo-Saxon countries.

Internationally, I think the center-left at least is alive and well. Social welfare spending (and government spending in general) is fairly high in most western European countries.

Image

As far as the far left goes, I'm not really sure they ever held true influence anywhere. Most leftists I talk to regard the USSR as not "really being leftist", they usually say it was state capitalist.
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