Do you think that the song "Dixie" is offensive?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

No not really it doesnt openly say anything about slavery. It does mention cotton but if you automatically assume cotton means black people then you might be a bit racist

It was a song sung in what was considered to be Negro dialect.

It was written before the Civil War, when slavery was still prevalent in the Southern and border states. The original song was sung in what they called "Negro dialect" by performers in blackface. Don't play the idiot.

[Geilinor]

Cotton means slaves.

Clothing is racist! Weaving is theft! Polyester fabric 2016!

We're taking about the time when slavery was legal.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Clothing is racist! Weaving is theft! Polyester fabric 2016!

We're taking about the time when slavery was legal.

Yet we don't sing the song in a time when slavery is legal.

I mean, unless we want to associate cotton with sweatshop workers...

[Orla]

No not really it doesnt openly say anything about slavery. It does mention cotton but if you automatically assume cotton means black people then you might be a bit racist

Cotton means slaves.

Well, not really. The area was horrendously racist but
cotton=/=slaves

[Geilinor]

We're taking about the time when slavery was legal.

Yet we don't sing the song in a time when slavery is legal.

I mean, unless we want to associate cotton with sweatshop workers...

The song has associations with the Old South. That doesn't just go away.

[Geilinor]

Cotton means slaves.

Well, not really. The area was horrendously racist but
cotton=/=slaves

You have to look at the story the song was written to tell.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

We're taking about the time when slavery was legal.

Yet we don't sing the song in a time when slavery is legal.

I mean, unless we want to associate cotton with sweatshop workers...

That's entirely irrelevant. The scars still run through American society, and for many symbolize an unhealthy and unwarranted sentimentality for a time and place when slavery was still practiced, regardless of the intent of the singer. That doesn't make the singer a bigot, but I think that the association is an understandable one.

[Baiynistan]

Everything is offensive to someone (I'm offended by the concept of being offended). People who get flustered over a +150 year old song don't deserve anyone's attention.

Personally, I like it. The melody is catchy as hell! Especially when it's given a bit of oomph like it is in my favourite rendition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKMTu1GDi_w

I think its a little bit of a socio-cultural compulsion for Brits to sympathise with underdogs/the losing side in conflicts, so I can't help seeing a tinge of romanticism in the undone Confederate nation. Old movies like Gone With The Wind and The Outlaw Josey Wales and The Good, The Bad & The Ugly certainly don't help with one's disenchantment...! >.>

It's purely an aesthetic thing, but I really love the Battle Flag as well. It just looks good! It's a shame that such a striking flag is associated with nothing but bad stuff and bad people. =/

[The Fascist American Empire]

Does it say anything about blacks, slavery, or white supremacy? No? Then it isn't offensive.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Yet we don't sing the song in a time when slavery is legal.

I mean, unless we want to associate cotton with sweatshop workers...

That's entirely irrelevant. The scars still run through American society, and for many symbolize an unhealthy and unwarranted sentimentality for a time and place when slavery was still practiced, regardless of the intent of the singer. That doesn't make the singer a bigot, but I think that the association is an understandable one.

*shrug* I don't. There's plenty of cultural productions with associations to objectionable actions, ideas or philosophies, that doesn't make it understandable to be offended by them. A Jew being offended by 'Ride of the Valkyries' or a Native American offended by 'She wore a Yellow Ribbon' aren't really understandable unless you stretch the definition so much as to be rather useless in carrying much of a point.
*shrug*

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Everything is offensive to someone (I'm offended by the concept of being offended). People who get flustered over a +150 year old song don't deserve anyone's attention.

Personally, I like it. The melody is catchy as hell! Especially when it's given a bit of oomph like it is in my favourite rendition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKMTu1GDi_w

I think its a little bit of a socio-cultural compulsion for Brits to sympathise with underdogs/the losing side in conflicts, so I can't help seeing a tinge of romanticism in the undone Confederate nation. Old movies like Gone With The Wind and The Outlaw Josey Wales and The Good, The Bad & The Ugly certainly don't help with one's disenchantment...! >.>

It's purely an aesthetic thing, but I really love Battle Flag as well. It just looks good! It's a shame that such a striking flag is associated with nothing but bad stuff and bad people. =/

But here's the thing: The battle flag and the song WERE used by bad people who were fighting so that they could continue to enslave, beat, rape, and flog their fellow human beings without interference. The descendants of these people are still around. Not all, but many find the song to be a sentimental longing for that time. Is it so wrong to keep that in mind before singing the tune?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

That's entirely irrelevant. The scars still run through American society, and for many symbolize an unhealthy and unwarranted sentimentality for a time and place when slavery was still practiced, regardless of the intent of the singer. That doesn't make the singer a bigot, but I think that the association is an understandable one.

*shrug* I don't. There's plenty of cultural productions with associations to objectionable actions, ideas or philosophies, that doesn't make it understandable to be offended by them. A Jew being offended by 'Ride of the Valkyries' or a Native American offended by 'She wore a Yellow Ribbon' aren't really understandable unless you stretch the definition so much as to be rather useless in carrying much of a point.
*shrug*

Ride of the Valkyries wasn't about Jews longing for the pogroms.

EDIT: Though it should be noted that Wagner's music has never been staged in Israel, to my knowledge.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Does it say anything about blacks, slavery, or white supremacy? No? Then it isn't offensive.

And about it originally being a song for people to sing in blackface about longing for their days in the cotton fields, rather than being free up north?

[Avenio]

Does it say anything about blacks, slavery, or white supremacy? No? Then it isn't offensive.

And about it originally being a song for people to sing in blackface about longing for their days in the cotton fields, rather than being free up north?

And also had this as it's cover after the Civil War;

[Baiynistan]

But here's the thing: The battle flag and the song WERE used by bad people who were fighting so that they could continue to enslave, beat, rape, and flog their fellow human beings without interference. The descendants of these people are still around. Not all, but many find the song to be a sentimental longing for that time. Is it so wrong to keep that in mind before singing the tune?

No, definitely not. And, as the songs and symbols of the CSA are associated with a nation that was established predominantly with the intention of prolonging the practice of human enslavement (breaking up the Union in the process), I think it would be inappropriate for them to be used in any kind of official capacity. It would be quintessentially "un-American".
It is because of this that I think it's a good thing as well that nearly every state that had Confederate symbols in their official flags has altered them to remove imagery that represented a largely divisive, antagonistic and oppressive movement.

Whatever people choose to display on their personal property or sing on their own time, however, is fine by me.

[The Fascist American Empire]

And about it originally being a song for people to sing in blackface about longing for their days in the cotton fields, rather than being free up north?

And also had this as it's cover after the Civil War;

I never said people didn't make it offensive. People could probably make the word "fish" offensive if they wanted to.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

But here's the thing: The battle flag and the song WERE used by bad people who were fighting so that they could continue to enslave, beat, rape, and flog their fellow human beings without interference. The descendants of these people are still around. Not all, but many find the song to be a sentimental longing for that time. Is it so wrong to keep that in mind before singing the tune?

No, definitely not. And, as the songs and symbols of the CSA are associated with a nation that was established predominantly with the intention of prolonging the practice of human enslavement (breaking up the Union in the process), I think it would be inappropriate for them to be used in any kind of official capacity. It would be quintessentially "un-American".
It is because of this that I think it's a good thing as well that nearly every state that had Confederate symbols in their official flags has altered them to remove imagery that represented a largely divisive, antagonistic and oppressive movement.

Whatever people choose to display on their personal property or sing on their own time, however, is fine by me.

Sure, that's their business. I think it's a bit asinine if one knows the actual history of the tune, but I get it. I also understand that it's convenient shorthand to play a short instrumental of it when setting a scene in a movie, cartoon, show, or play, so I can also see that.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

And also had this as it's cover after the Civil War;

I never said people didn't make it offensive. People could probably make the word "fish" offensive if they wanted to.

But here's the thing: It wasn't "made" offensive. It was insulting to black people in its original context.

[Tekania]

It is because of this that I think it's a good thing as well that nearly every state that had Confederate symbols in their official flags has altered them to remove imagery that represented a largely divisive, antagonistic and oppressive movement.

Some of them of course just replaced one Confederate symbol with another.....

Yes, I'm pointing to you, Georgia.



Just the confederate Stars and Bars with the Georgia seal put in the circle of stars

[Vettrera]

It is because of this that I think it's a good thing as well that nearly every state that had Confederate symbols in their official flags has altered them to remove imagery that represented a largely divisive, antagonistic and oppressive movement.

Some of them of course just replaced one Confederate symbol with another.....

Yes, I'm pointing to you, Georgia.



Just the confederate Stars and Bars with the Georgia seal put in the circle of stars

What --- why we'd never!

[The Two Jerseys]

It is because of this that I think it's a good thing as well that nearly every state that had Confederate symbols in their official flags has altered them to remove imagery that represented a largely divisive, antagonistic and oppressive movement.

Some of them of course just replaced one Confederate symbol with another.....

Yes, I'm pointing to you, Georgia.



Just the confederate Stars and Bars with the Georgia seal put in the circle of stars

I thought that was a brilliant move by Georgia, exploiting the fact that the majority of people don't know their history.

On a related note, I swear I'm going to punch in the head the next person who calls the Battle Flag the "Stars and Bars"...

[Vettrera]

And also had this as it's cover after the Civil War;

I never said people didn't make it offensive. People could probably make the word "fish" offensive if they wanted to.

The original intent was to be offensive, it was offensive in it's original sense*. You can say that the South has repurposed the song to be a song that just says "I'm proud of the South and its heritage" but that's not much of an argument.


*- is this the right usage of "sense"?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I never said people didn't make it offensive. People could probably make the word "fish" offensive if they wanted to.

The original intent was to be offensive, it was offensive in it's original sense*. You can say that the South has repurposed the song to be a song that just says "I'm proud of the South and its heritage" but that's not much of an argument.


*- is this the right usage of "sense"?

Yes. Another appropriate usage in this context would be "That makes sense" in response to your post.

[Tekania]

Some of them of course just replaced one Confederate symbol with another.....

Yes, I'm pointing to you, Georgia.

(Image)

Just the confederate Stars and Bars with the Georgia seal put in the circle of stars

I thought that was a brilliant move by Georgia, exploiting the fact that the majority of people don't know their history.

On a related note, I swear I'm going to punch in the head the next person who calls the Battle Flag the "Stars and Bars"...

Yes, it did turn int a scathing rebuke of our education system to me as well.

[Baiynistan]

Some of them of course just replaced one Confederate symbol with another.....

Yes, I'm pointing to you, Georgia.

[img]http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flags/images/ga_flag_2003.gif[/mg]

Just the confederate Stars and Bars with the Georgia seal put in the circle of stars

Those crafty devils!