When you see the Hammer And Sickle, what do you think

[Narodik]

The hammer and sickle is the symbol of a nation responsible for 40 million deaths, 3.33 times as many as Nazi Germany. This should not even be a debate.

I find it funny how all the Communists here rebutt this whole propogated over exageration, but then you crumple our arguements up and throw them away, then repeat the same old arguement.

[Mavorpen]

I was disputing his claim of "60 million", which is absurd. The number is closer to 9 million if the famines are not included, and about 15-20 million if they are, which is disputable.

Why on Earth would famine victims not be included?

Because it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that famine victims were killed under personal orders by Stalin.

[Alyakia]

I was disputing his claim of "60 million", which is absurd. The number is closer to 9 million if the famines are not included, and about 15-20 million if they are, which is disputable.

Why on Earth would famine victims not be included?

because famines are not necessarily malicious. it depends on the specific famine. nobody creates death tolls for famines in ireland and india and pins them in the UK, regardless of their actual culpability.

[Bojikami]

No. It represents communism. Not death and genocide.

[Pilotto]

Why on Earth would famine victims not be included?

Because it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that famine victims were killed under personal orders by Stalin.

Are you joking?
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/ukraine_famine.htm

[United Marxist Nations]

Wow, that was really, really long. I got my numbers from this source, which gave a range of 20 to 60 million.

There's also this, written by a Professor Emeritus, but dear Marx here refuses to accept its finding.
http://www.distributedrepublic.net/arch ... ly-murder/

That's because his findings are wrong; let's examine them, shall we:

The number of executions from 1936 to 1938 was probably about 1,000,000

From 1921-1953, the total number of executions was 799,455, from recently declassified Soviet records.

about 12,000,000 died in the camps;

1.7 million died in Gulag camps.

He never cites anything for his other numbers, he's essentially pulling them out of his ass.

[Imperializt Russia]

Why on Earth would famine victims not be included?

Because it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that famine victims were killed under personal orders by Stalin.

A variety of Ukrainian famines were.

[Mavorpen]

Because it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that famine victims were killed under personal orders by Stalin.

Are you joking?
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/ukraine_famine.htm

And? What relevance does this have to do with my post?

[United Marxist Nations]

Because it's intellectually dishonest to suggest that famine victims were killed under personal orders by Stalin.

Are you joking?
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/stalin.htm
http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/ukraine_famine.htm

And there is also plenty of evidence to suggest it wasn't intentional; I wrote a brief paper on it; please read it:
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=unit ... /id=227567

The famine was due largely to a) natural conditions, and b) incompetence on the part of local distribution.

[Pilotto]

about 12,000,000 died in the camps;

1.7 million died in Gulag camps.

He never cites anything for his other numbers, he's essentially pulling them out of his ass.

12 million and 1.7 million are radically different numbers. Can you source that?

[United Marxist Nations]

1.7 million died in Gulag camps.

He never cites anything for his other numbers, he's essentially pulling them out of his ass.

12 million and 1.7 million are radically different numbers. Can you source that?

About 14 million people were in the Gulag labor camps from 1929 to 1953. A further 6–7 million were deported and exiled to remote areas of the USSR, and 4–5 million passed through labor colonies.[11] The total population of the camps varied from 510,307 in 1934 to 1,727,970 in 1953.[6]

According to a 1993 study of archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953.[6] However, taking into account that it was common practice to release prisoners who were either suffering from incurable diseases or on the point of death,[12][13] the actual Gulag death toll was somewhat higher, amounting to 1,258,537 in 1934-53, or 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.[14]

Graph: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 4-1953.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

You also have to remember that many of the deaths were in the Penal Battalions during WWII.

[Bezombia]

As a communist,
of course not. That's just silly.

[Bojikami]

The Hammer and Sickle are a sacred symbol of the workers of the former USSR. Not a symbol of famines (Not genocide, mind you.) or oppression.

[Itanpavia]

I think of the Soviet Union - I don't associate it with communism

[Herrebrugh]

I think of the Soviet Union - I don't associate it with communism

That's weird, considering it's the symbol of communism.

[Jetan]

The Hammer and Sickle are a sacred symbol of the workers of the former USSR. Not a symbol of famines (Not genocide, mind you.) or oppression.

Bzzzzzz! Wrong! It's a symbol of Death, Oppression (both domestic and international), and Dictatorship.

[Bojikami]

I think of the Soviet Union - I don't associate it with communism

That's weird, considering it's the symbol of communism.

Its not the only symbol. The color red alone could stand for communism.

[Baiynistan]

My initial reaction to the Hammer & Sickle is one of disappointment. To me, at its core, the symbol represents wasted potential. A wonderful theory defiled in bloody and boorish practice. Ultimately, it encapsulates the Left's failure to put forward and implement a viable alternative to the market economy. Then, to me, it represents the horrors of Stalinism; tyranny, paranoia, personality cults, gulags, show-trials, political murder, censorship, secret police, deliberate starvation, poverty, careerism and endless bureaucracy.

[Herrebrugh]

That's weird, considering it's the symbol of communism.

Its not the only symbol. The color red alone could stand for communism.

Red can stand for many things (including socialism in general). The hammer and sickle are pretty much an exclusively communist symbol.

[Atelia]

I think "Soviet Power Supreme"

[Dejanic]

I think of the Soviet Union - I don't associate it with communism

That's weird, considering it's the symbol of communism.

It isn't THE symbol, it's A symbol. A symbol that's largely associated with the Soviet Union. The original symbol of Communism was the red flag.

[Bezombia]

That's weird, considering it's the symbol of communism.

It isn't THE symbol, it's A symbol. A symbol that's largely associated with the Soviet Union. The original symbol of Communism was the red flag.

Not to mention that the only country to adopt communist policies had a black flag instead of a red one.

[Imperializt Russia]

12 million and 1.7 million are radically different numbers. Can you source that?

About 14 million people were in the Gulag labor camps from 1929 to 1953. A further 6–7 million were deported and exiled to remote areas of the USSR, and 4–5 million passed through labor colonies.[11] The total population of the camps varied from 510,307 in 1934 to 1,727,970 in 1953.[6]

According to a 1993 study of archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953.[6] However, taking into account that it was common practice to release prisoners who were either suffering from incurable diseases or on the point of death,[12][13] the actual Gulag death toll was somewhat higher, amounting to 1,258,537 in 1934-53, or 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.[14]

Graph: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 4-1953.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

You also have to remember that many of the deaths were in the Penal Battalions during WWII.

As many as one million are believed to have died in the construction of the Kolyma Highway during that period, so where do they fit in?

[Vectium]

Target Practice.

[Herrebrugh]

That's weird, considering it's the symbol of communism.

It isn't THE symbol, it's A symbol. A symbol that's largely associated with the Soviet Union. The original symbol of Communism was the red flag.

Nowadays it is THE symbol.