Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Thellonya]

So the solution is clearly to justify all that potential scapegoating by invading the country?

Swell thinkin' there Vlad ol' buddy. That's certain to make sure Ukraine doesn't become hostile to Russia.

The point is that it's too late to avoid it now, so might as well go all in.

We passed the point of no return when the armed rebellions in Donetsk and Lugansk began. Before then, my view was that Russia should leave Ukraine alone, in order to allow the new regime to discredit itself, hopefully leading to a better political situation. But now? After a civil war has been going on for months? It's too late to back out. Far-right nationalism is going to rise in Ukraine, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it, and force has become the only option for stopping it.

Yes, Putin shares a lot of the blame for getting to this point (although the fault lies mainly with Yanukovych). But he's also the only one who can do any damage control right now, so I support him in doing that.

If you don't understand how that works, consider the situation in Iraq. Whose fault is it that we got here? The US's fault, mainly. But do I support US military action to fix the mess they've created? Damn right I do.

And you think seriously solidifying them as a political force when you annex HALF of ukraine? Dude, it sounds like you almost want this to go full retard man, if you take the land now, right sector will then have a actual cause to take back what was lost, and then shit will really get bad. Right now they're just a bunch of fringe crazies but later....well, since you want to find out so bad, then you can find out.

[Estruia]

Yet you tolerate Putin's fascist advisers, such as Aleksandr Dugin.

Yes, because Putin's fascist advisers, unlike the Ukrainian fascists, are not actively trying to get left-wing parties banned, nor are they in control of street gangs and paramilitary units that vandalize the offices of left-wing organizations, beat up left-wing activists, destroy public monuments with left-wing symbolism, etc.

I tolerate people like Aleksandr Dugin because they are willing to tolerate me and my politics. The Ukrainian fascists want to kill me and wipe out anyone who shares my politics. So I want them to die. And if the only people trying to make them die are a bunch of Russian imperialists, well then, I guess I'll support a bunch of Russian imperialists.

You are an absolutely disgusting human being. You want people to die, just because they have different political beliefs than you? They aren't trying to kill off Leftists. Yet, you just said you want them to die, over your falsely-perceived persecution because you are a Leftist (who probably doesn't live in Ukraine, if I'm wrong, correct me.)

Seriously, you should feel ashamed of yourself for wanting people to die because of their political beliefs.

[Lyttenburg]

Menwhile in Kiev - a group of the true Ukrainian patriots (in masks) trashed LukOil fuel station. People on the street voiced an approval of that action aimed "against the Russian aggressors". Kievan police, as usual in such situation, was nowhere to find. Probably, as many as 20 people may have lost their job as the result of this very patriotiv action.

As they say in Odessa, all tzimmes of this situation is that LukOil have already sold all of its fuel stations to the Austrians.

Repel the Russian aggression by destroying your own country! Слава Нацii! Whoo-hoo!

[Lyttenburg]

Can't beat the drones That and fast movers can be over central Ukraine in hours if Ukraine gave them clearance.

Ukraine hasn't given Clearance to Russia so Russia doesn't have any aircraft in the area yet.

Ahhhwww! It so sweet, you know, your boundless beleive in drones as some sort of Wunderwaffe.

NATO could counter and say that Russia is lying to protect the rebels.

After all supposedly none of them are carrying ID proving themselves to be Russian soldiers.

Wasn't it your pet theory that calling everyone in the East "separatists" would give USA a justification of exterminating them? How long would such justification hold in case of Russia's recognizing its troops present, or, more importantly, before this turns into WW3? Don't kid yourself - NATO won't send troops to the Ukraine. Or should I remind about this famous Bismark's phrase about "worth the life of even one Pomeranian grenadier"?

Now you're trying to claim there's a genocide going on?

Now, should we go a couple of posts back? You've said:

With Brothers like Russia, sometimes you need to disown your family. Ukraine will never love Russia after this, quit fooling yourself.

as a reply to my words that "in the Ukraine people are angy at the Ministry of Defense not for the fact that it wages war against "brothers"". Should I (surely, unnecessary) remind you that since early April the Ukrainians have killed during their ATO a very large number of civillians in the Eastern Ukraine, who, surprise-surprise, were citizens of the Ukraine? So, I've asked you:

...when the Ukrainian military and warbands of "volunteers" were decimating civilian areas (and in several cases - they have eradicated entire villages and small towns) - this was "a disowning of a family"?

Maybe, I wasn't clear? Personally, I doubt it. Instead, you have respond with the bizzare phrase of yours that:

The fact that they were killing pro-Russian Rebels was ample evidence that they aren't Pro-Russian anymore.

So, I asked for more elaborate answer. Who "aren't Pro-Russian anymore" after "the fact that they were killing pro-Russian Rebels"?

Finally, I have to ask you - shoul it really be a genocide of epic proportions (and I've never implied that) of the Eastern Ukrainian citizens of the Ukraine to make you realize, that something is really screwed up with this Kiev-launched ATO, if childre, women and elderly are dying in droves?

*Points to Crimea.*
Ukrainian land, stolen by Russia.

Oh, please! I was hoping for something real! Just Crimea River!

[Constantinopolis]

Yes, because Putin's fascist advisers, unlike the Ukrainian fascists, are not actively trying to get left-wing parties banned, nor are they in control of street gangs and paramilitary units that vandalize the offices of left-wing organizations, beat up left-wing activists, destroy public monuments with left-wing symbolism, etc.

I tolerate people like Aleksandr Dugin because they are willing to tolerate me and my politics. The Ukrainian fascists want to kill me and wipe out anyone who shares my politics. So I want them to die. And if the only people trying to make them die are a bunch of Russian imperialists, well then, I guess I'll support a bunch of Russian imperialists.

You are an absolutely disgusting human being. You want people to die, just because they have different political beliefs than you?

No, not because they have different political beliefs than me. Putin and Dugin have utterly different political beliefs than me as well, and I don't want them to die, in fact I'm even willing to support them as the lesser evil.

The point is that the Ukrainian fascists want to kill me and wipe out anyone who shares my politics. They have vandalized the offices of the Communist Party and other leftist organizations, tearing down pictures, burning books, flags and literature. They have destroyed public monuments. They have violently assaulted left-wing activists. They have abducted people. They have (probably) tortured some of them. And they killed activists in Odessa. So yeah, they ARE trying to kill leftists or at the very least terrorize us into silence, so damn right I wish death upon them in return. It's called self-defence.

They aren't trying to kill off Leftists.

Tell that to the Leftists in Odessa.

[Alien Space Bats]

Ninja'ed, but still worth posting:

Russia is currently the only country with a reliable ability to put humans into space. And the Chinese are the only ones who are trying besides them.
And their space program is based on modified Russian technology.

The Chinese aren't the only ones "trying". The US is currently in the midst of making a transition from a fully public-operated space transportation model to one in which both public and private entities provide space transportation services. That's why you'll see the US have the capacity to undertake both public and commercial manned launches within the next decade.

And as for Russia, I should point out that nearly 50 years after humans first set foot on the moon, not only does Russia lack the capacity to mount a lunar mission, it lacks the technical prowess to even attempt such a mission, not to mention the will to try. That's far less than we can say for China, which IS aiming at reaching the Moon by the end of the next decade.

In short, Earth orbit is Russia's limit: It will never be able to go beyond that. For the US and China, that's not at all the case.

The Chinese are the only ones trying besides the Russians?

Reminds me of the punditry that was abound during the period when the Saturn V was retired but the Space Shuttle had not yet come into play. You've heard of the Orion, CCDev, and SLS programs, right? If you have, I'm guessing you believe that they are vaporware.

Dontcha know? RT says that only Great Russian technology can ply the heavens, because only Russians are strong, sensitive, and spiritual enough to mek the journey.

Next up in Russian propaganda: How NASA faked the Moon landings in the 60's.

SIDEBAR: Yeah, I'd forgotten that the US actually ended Project Apollo before we'd brought the Shuttle online, resulting in a 6-year hiatus between the last Apollo flight (the ASTP, in July, 1975, and STS-1, in April, 1981); I'd also forgotten how Soviet propagandists tried to use that hiatus to denigrate America's accomplishments in space and pretend that they (and they alone) owned the heavens again.

Some things apparently never change.

[Alien Space Bats]

We could make this a drinking game. Take a shot every time a Kiev apologist dismisses concerns about fascism in Ukraine by saying that the fascists are only a small part of the government, as if they would fucking tolerate a German government that included a "tiny minority" of Nazis, or a US government that included a "tiny minority" of KKK leaders.

You DO realize that the post-war German government DID include some former Nazis, right? And this was in spite of de-Nazification.

As for Klansmen in (US) government, Trent Lott led the GOP in the US Senate from 2001-2003; Robert Byrd led the Democrats in the US Senate from 1981-1987 and was elected President Pro Tempore whenever the Democrats held a majority from 1989 until his retirement in 2010. Finally, while not quite a Klansman, Haley Barbour was GOP Chairman from 1993-1997 in spite past ties to Mississippi's viciously segregationist White Citizens' Council, which worked with the State of Mississippi in running one of the Nation's most extensive domestic spying campaigns back in the 60's.

Mind you, most of these politicians were able to get away with this because they "evolved" on matters of race. Barbour, for instance, was one of the first to advocate for a change in policy by the GOP to turn the Party into a "Big Tent"; and Byrd went from being opposed to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to getting a 100% rating from the NAACP late in his career. Lott was less successful in breaking with his past, but at least managed to stay in politics until he made an unwise comment about Strom Thurmond's 1948 Presidential Bid (and all of the foregoing is without getting into the political enigma that is Strom Thurmond himself, who was both a confirmed segregationist on the one hand and a dedicated enemy of lynch mobs on the other...).

tl&dr: Governments are often compromise constructs that are seldom as pure and simple as you seem to want to make them out to be.

[Alien Space Bats]

Hey, ASB - this one doesn't count! You predicted massed tank formations and "Red Storm Rising" re-enactment!

Don't put words in peoples' mouths. It's unsanitary.

I never predicted "massed tank formations and 'Red Storm Rising' re-enactment"...

Let's review, shall we?

You think an armed conflict between Russia and Ukraine is inevitable?

I think the occupation of Kiev by Russian forces and the forcible establishment of a Russian puppet government there is inevitable.

The Cold War called. It says it wants its paranoia back.

Tell you what: If Russia hasn't moved into the Ukraine by the end of summer, I'll admit that I was mistaken..

The question is, if they have, will you?

Sure. It's a bet.

So, in summary:

• I said that I thought that the Russian government would eventually find itself compelled to occupy Kiev and establish a puppet government there.
  
  
  • I was subsequently accused of expressing paranoia from the Cold War era.
    
    
  • In response, I said that I would admit to being wrong in Russia hadn't moved into the Ukraine by the end of summer.

So now, to recap where we stand at this stage in the game:

• It is now the end of August.
  
  
• Summer doesn't end for another three weeks.
  
  
• Russian troops have crossed the border into the Ukraine and are now operating openly against the Ukraine and its armed forces.

I was fully prepared to admit to having called it wrong in another three weeks, but (for now) it seems that I won't have to — unless, of course, a deal is reached to end this conflict before it goes further (and with no real likelihood of a resumption somewhere down the road).

Of course, if Russia gives up on its efforts prior to pushing things far enough to reach Kiev, then I'd also be in the position of having to admit to being wrong.

So does that clarify where we stand at this juncture vis-à-vis my earlier comments?

[Lyttenburg]

The Chinese aren't the only ones "trying". The US is currently in the midst of making a transition from a fully public-operated space transportation model to one in which both public and private entities provide space transportation services. That's why you'll see the US have the capacity to undertake both public and commercial manned launches within the next decade.

And as for Russia, I should point out that nearly 50 years after humans first set foot on the moon, not only does Russia lack the capacity to mount a lunar mission, it lacks the technical prowess to even attempt such a mission, not to mention the will to try. That's far less than we can say for China, which IS aiming at reaching the Moon by the end of the next decade.

In short, Earth orbit is Russia's limit: It will never be able to go beyond that. For the US and China, that's not at all the case.

Psst! ASB! Ever heard about "Lunokhod-1"? Also - when was the last time US of A sent living people on the Moon? Question is rhetorical, btw.

[*]Summer doesn't end for another three weeks.

Wat? In the US of A, September is the Month of Summer? And just don't pull this nonsense about "I was meaning the Indian Summer all the Time!"

[Lemanrussland]

The Chinese aren't the only ones "trying". The US is currently in the midst of making a transition from a fully public-operated space transportation model to one in which both public and private entities provide space transportation services. That's why you'll see the US have the capacity to undertake both public and commercial manned launches within the next decade.

And as for Russia, I should point out that nearly 50 years after humans first set foot on the moon, not only does Russia lack the capacity to mount a lunar mission, it lacks the technical prowess to even attempt such a mission, not to mention the will to try. That's far less than we can say for China, which IS aiming at reaching the Moon by the end of the next decade.

In short, Earth orbit is Russia's limit: It will never be able to go beyond that. For the US and China, that's not at all the case.

Psst! ASB! Ever heard about "Lunokhod-1"? Also - when was the last time US of A sent living people on the Moon? Question is rhetorical, btw.

I think he's specifically talking about manned spaceflight.

If you want to go into robotic missions, the Soviets sent probes to Venus and Mars too. The Americans arguably surpassed the USSR/Russia in this area too, though.

[Allanea]

In short, Earth orbit is Russia's limit: It will never be able to go beyond that. For the US and China, that's not at all the case.

I'm saving this so I can laugh at it when Russia's made it beyond Earth Orbit.

[Allanea]

Russians are not yet operating "openly" against Ukraine.

1. OSCE has not confirmed Russian formations corssing the border.

2. Russia has not admitted it - which makes it "Not open".

No doubt there are Russian troops among the rebels, perhaps even a small infantry unit or tank company here and there. This is not the same as "operating openly".

[Lemanrussland]

In short, Earth orbit is Russia's limit: It will never be able to go beyond that. For the US and China, that's not at all the case.

I'm saving this so I can laugh at it when Russia's made it beyond Earth Orbit.

They have no plans for manned BLEO missions, though. The ISS is already soaking up enough of the RKA's budget (around 50 percent in 2009).

Manned spaceflight in general is very, very expensive.

[Alien Space Bats]

Psst! ASB! Ever heard about "Lunokhod-1"? Also - when was the last time US of A sent living people on the Moon? Question is rhetorical, btw.

An unmanned probe. Whoopdee-doo. Why am I NOT impressed?

Come back and talk to me when you've sent something living to the Moon, like maybe a lizard. That WOULD be Russia's speed.

Not that I'm going to hold my breath: Russia's last UNMANNED Lunar mission was Luna 24, flown way back in August, 1976; its next schedule mission (Luna-Glob 1) has been postponed repeatedly since it was first proposed in 1997, and is currently slated for 2016 — assuming that it doesn't get shoved back AGAIN...

[*]Summer doesn't end for another three weeks.

Wat? In the US of A, September is the Month of Summer? And just don't pull this nonsense about "I was meaning the Indian Summer all the Time!"

Summer begins with the Summer Solstice (June 21st this year) and ends with the Autumnal Equinox (September 23rd this year). We've got nearly 3½ more weeks before fall is upon us, Bunky.

And just don't pull this nonsense about "I was meaning the Indian Summer all the Time!"

What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?!? EVERYBODY knows that Indian Summer usually comes in late October or early November...

[Alien Space Bats]

Now, in the RF lives more than 180 ethnicities, the vast majority of them - native to that land. Can "The Citadel of Freedom and the Bastion of Democracy" say the same about itself?

There are 566 Federally-recognized Native American tribes. 229 of these are located in Alaska; 333 are located in the lower 48. Please note that this does not include Native Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders, who are NOT considered "Native Americans" (rather, they fall into a different ethnic category).

Some of these tribes are actually quite large:

Navajo	308,013
Cherokee	285,476
Sioux	131,048
Chippewa	115,859
Choctaw	88,913
Apache	64,869
Pueblo	59,337
Iroquois	48,365
Creek	44,085
Blackfeet	23,583
Total (10 Largest Tribes)	1,169,548

1.1 million people is more than the population of any of the smallest EIGHT States (Rhode Island, Montana, Delaware, South Dakota, Alaska, Noth Dakota, Vermont, and Wyoming), as well as the District of Columbia; it means that if these 10 tribes were entitled to (collective) representation in Congress, they'd be granted 2 Representatives.

So I'm not exactly sure what your point is here. Were you trying to make the claim that North America's native population no longer exists?

Russia didn't "stole" Crimea from Tartars. Russian Empire conquered it in the second half of th 18th century. Before that, Crimean Khanate (vassals of the Ottoman Empire) existed as in that area, which primary "buiseness" consisted in raiding, pillaging, burning, killing and taking slaves of all its neighbours. Not to mention, that they came to that area with mongols in 13th century.

P.S.

And you, as Her Majestie's Subject, should perhaps, remember all the gory and nasty fact about your own Empire, before which "Russian crimes" simply pale.

Ah, yes: Whataboutism mixed with historical denial. "WE'RE not the monsters here, YOU are — REGARDLESS of what kind of shit we pull."

You in your much more Free and Liberal countries can do anythig you want. Surely, even in WW2 said cauntries remained the paragon of Democracy and Respect of Human Rights, that you Value so High.

Oh, wait.

But surely, you can find some excuse, why this was totally okay to strip an enormous number of citizens if the Glorious US of A of their constitution given rights, while Stalin's treatment of Tatar (some of whom, indeed, collaborated with Nazi's forces) is despicable and savage.

[starts to eat семки]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, NO!!! You're not SERIOUSLY so out of touch with reality as to even ATTEMPT to compare Stalin's crimes with the WORST civil rights abuses of 20th Century America, are you?

Because however bad you want to exaggerate things up, the lynchings of black men under Jim Crow (or the shootings of unarmed black men by police today) don't even BEGIN to compare to the death toll under Stalin — unless we're operating under some kind of New Russian Math, in which a few thousand deaths across the course of a century are now a greater travesty than MILLIONS of deaths in just a few decades. Ditto for the detention of just over 100,000 Japanese-Americans for four years or so, versus the maintenance of the Gulag under Stalin (and his successors), which lasted decades, affected almost 14 million people through its existence, and never held LESS than half a million people under its sway beyond its first year of operation:

Gotta love those wartime years in particular, when more prisoners DIED EACH YEAR in the Gulag than the total number of Japanese-Americans held in the detention camps across the WHOLE DAMNED WAR!

But of course, under the New Russian Math, that CLEARLY makes America WORSE BY FAR.

And what about civil liberties? I suppose you're going to tell me that life in Stalin's Russia under the NKVD was freer than it was in America. You want to compare Hoover's WORST excesses to those of Yagoda, Yezhov, and Beria?

Are you REALLY prepared to forever make a complete and utter ass of yourself by even TRYING to go there? No, somehow I doubt that even you would dare destroy your reputation so thoroughly as to attempt that.

Stalin was a two-legged monster: No objective person can challenge that assessment. He's right up there with Hitler and Mao for the scale of his butchery and horrific oppression. Trying to compare him with anything the West has produced (other than the aforementioned German Chancellor) is an unspeakable insult to everyone's intelligence.

[Lemanrussland]

Wow, couldn't have said it better than that, ASB.

By the way, NATO has released the satellite images showing Russian military equipment in Ukraine I mentioned earlier.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-sat ... ine-2014-8

Russia has basically responded by saying "there is no point in responding". Basically, just a flat denial, no counterargument or contrary evidence.

[Costa Fierro]

Now, in the RF lives more than 180 ethnicities, the vast majority of them - native to that land. Can "The Citadel of Freedom and the Bastion of Democracy" say the same about itself?

Well, considering NZ was ranked No. 1 in "Human Freedom in the World", we could be considered the Citadel of Freedom and the Bastion of Democracy (because we do things better here). And we have 213 ethnic groups.

[Germanic Templars]

-snip-

Well said and formatted arguement, ASB.

Though every time I hear gulag and Stalin together I think of this picture:

[Occupied Deutschland]

Wow, couldn't have said it better than that, ASB.

By the way, NATO has released the satellite images showing Russian military equipment in Ukraine I mentioned earlier.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-sat ... ine-2014-8

Russia has basically responded by saying "there is no point in responding". Basically, just a flat denial, no counterargument or contrary evidence.

To be fair, at least that is better than what a detailed response would be.

"There are no Russian forces in Cri--I mean Eastern Ukrai--I mean Ukraine. These little green men the neo-fascist Euroslave Ukrainian so-called ambassador keeps mentioning are just 'local Novorossiya self-defense forces'."

[Costa Fierro]

Putin be like "bitch please, they ain't even real photos".

[Lemanrussland]

Putin be like "bitch please, they ain't even real photos".

Wow, that's weaksauce. Didn't see that. The last statement I saw basically said that the claims were ridiculous and not worth responding too. Now, they're claiming the images came from a computer game.

Perhaps some follow-up statements were buried under the sea of bitching over the Polish closing their airspace to Russian Defense Minister Shoigu's plane.

[Estruia]

Putin be like "bitch please, they ain't even real photos".

When is Russia just going to bugger off?

[Costa Fierro]

The point is that the Ukrainian fascists want to kill me and wipe out anyone who shares my politics.

So they're going to hunt you down and kill you? Dude, they're skinheads. They're more entertained by beating up immigrants in public or on public transport, not leading an apparent crusade against "leftists".

So yeah, they ARE trying to kill leftists or at the very least terrorize us into silence, so damn right I wish death upon them in return. It's called self-defence.

It's not called self defense when you yourself aren't being threatened. Also, wishing death upon a group of people in NSG is not kosher.

[Constantinopolis]

By the way, regarding the above argument between Lyttenburg and Alien Space Bats:

Countries are not people. Countries do not have personalities or character traits. Countries cannot be good or evil. Countries are not moral agents and do not carry moral responsibility.

The abstract entity known as "Russia" is not responsible for Stalin's actions. The human being known as Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin is responsible for Stalin's actions. The abstract entity known as "America" is not responsible for Jim Crow or Manifest Destiny or racist lynchings or whatever. The specific people and groups involved in those events are responsible for them.

Comparing countries in terms of morality - trying to decide which country is "worse" than another based on its actions - is precisely as ridiculous as comparing guns in terms of morality and trying to determine whether the AK-47 is more evil than the M16 because it killed more people. The things you are comparing are not people. They're objects (or abstract concepts). They don't have moral agency.

[Costa Fierro]

Plus, everyone knows the AK-47 is the better weapon anyway. And it has been used to kill more people simply because there were more of them made.

But that's neither here nor there.