Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Geilinor]

Yet you tolerate Putin's fascist advisers, such as Aleksandr Dugin.

Yes, because Putin's fascist advisers, unlike the Ukrainian fascists, are not actively trying to get left-wing parties banned, nor are they in control of street gangs and paramilitary units that vandalize the offices of left-wing organizations, beat up left-wing activists, destroy public monuments with left-wing symbolism, etc.

I tolerate people like Aleksandr Dugin because they are willing to tolerate me and my politics. The Ukrainian fascists want to kill me and wipe out anyone who shares my politics. So I want them to die. And if the only people trying to make them die are a bunch of Russian imperialists, well then, I guess I'll support a bunch of Russian imperialists.

Who did the Ukrainian fascists say they wanted to exterminate?

[Constantinopolis]

See? What did I tell you? "Tiny Minority"!

We could make this a drinking game. Take a shot every time a Kiev apologist dismisses concerns about fascism in Ukraine by saying that the fascists are only a small part of the government, as if they would fucking tolerate a German government that included a "tiny minority" of Nazis,

Most of Europe, including Russia, have Far right parties. Some of them with a handful of seats globally.

And all of them treated as pariahs, not respected coalition partners of the government.

Having a few seats in parliament is not the same bloody thing as being a close political ally of the prime minister. Marine Le Pen did not spend several months speaking to crowds from the same stage as the soon-to-be prime minister of France, for God's sake.

"False equivalence between far-right seats in parliament and far-right membership in governing coalition" should be another box in Kiev-apologist bingo. We need a shorter name for it, though. "Whitewashing fascist influence", maybe?

or a US government that included a "tiny minority" of KKK leaders.

Like President Harry S. Truman and Senator Robert Byrd?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Kl ... s_politics
I was surprised at the first one.

Huh. That is surprising.

Still, that was a long time ago. My point stands that no one would tolerate such a thing today, or dismiss it with claims of "tiny minority" or "other countries have racists in parliament too".

[Constantinopolis]

Yes, because Putin's fascist advisers, unlike the Ukrainian fascists, are not actively trying to get left-wing parties banned, nor are they in control of street gangs and paramilitary units that vandalize the offices of left-wing organizations, beat up left-wing activists, destroy public monuments with left-wing symbolism, etc.

I tolerate people like Aleksandr Dugin because they are willing to tolerate me and my politics. The Ukrainian fascists want to kill me and wipe out anyone who shares my politics. So I want them to die. And if the only people trying to make them die are a bunch of Russian imperialists, well then, I guess I'll support a bunch of Russian imperialists.

Who did the Ukrainian fascists say they wanted to exterminate?

Communists, mainly.

So if you were a communist and saw a conflict between a side that wants to destroy you and a side that may be almost as bad but doesn't want to destroy you, what would YOU do?

[Geilinor]

Most of Europe, including Russia, have Far right parties. Some of them with a handful of seats globally.

And all of them treated as pariahs, not respected coalition partners of the government.

Having a few seats in parliament is not the same bloody thing as being a close political ally of the prime minister. Marine Le Pen did not spend several months speaking to crowds from the same stage as the soon-to-be prime minister of France, for God's sake.

"False equivalence between far-right seats in parliament and far-right membership in governing coalition" should be another box in Kiev-apologist bingo. We need a shorter name for it, though. "Whitewashing fascist influence", maybe?

There was a right-wing nationalist party, the FPO, in Austria's governing coalition from 1999 to 2006. Jean Marie Le Pen got to the second round of the 2002 French election.

[Kelinfort]

Meh, I support Kiev, but my nation should definitely be much less interventionist when it comes to politics and not actual humanitarian crises.

[Jumalariik]

Since the February the Ukraine is approaching the level of "sovereignty" of Somali.

Ukrainian "sovereignty" has been dead ever since they let Washington, Berlin and the IMF fund their war against Russians.

Ah, a cog in Putin's machine.

[Geilinor]

Who did the Ukrainian fascists say they wanted to exterminate?

Communists, mainly.

So if you were a communist and saw a conflict between a side that wants to destroy you and a side that may be almost as bad but doesn't want to destroy you, what would YOU do?

Don't communists generally oppose the use of force to take another country's territory? You know, anti-imperialism and all. I'd oppose Russia.

[Lyttenburg]

Actually at the very worst it end up with a Korean war situation.

If on the extremely unlikely chance that NATO did intervene militarily inside Ukraine what's Russia going to do, launch a nuclear war for destroying units that were illegally invading another nation?

Hey, MacArthur once asked for A-bomb to use it in Korea... It's a mirecle that he didn't get it.

And how would NATO intervene in the Ukraine in such a way, that Russia wouldn't find out? Did your guys in the lab after watching StarTrack for Nth time finally discovered the teleportation technology? Othervise, I can't see how "Nato would intervene militarily inside Ukraine". without Russia quckly taking such steps, as, I dunno, officialy recognizing its troops and calling this "Operation of enforment to peace", how it was done in 2008.

The fact that they were killing pro-Russian Rebels was ample evidence that they aren't Pro-Russian anymore.

Sorry, care to elaborate a little more here? I fail to see your logic. I was saying that Ukrainian Military and Ukrainian so-called "volunteer battallions" of the National Guard were cilling civillians in droves. Now, another attempt to answer my question. Do you remember it? Or whould I repeat it?

If Russia did launch an open invasion on Ukraine with the point of driving on Kiev then of course they'd be attempting to steal Ukrainian territories.

They've already stolen Crimea after all.

So, no evidence?

[Lyttenburg]

I am quite impressed by the amazing numbers of pro-Russian people we still see around these parts. Mostly, I guess, this comes from either:

A. A connection to Russia through ancestry/otherwise, or;
B. Simply being a freak of Putin and other strongmen and caudillos around the world.

Yeah! How dare dey! Surely, such Freedum lovin' NatunStates needs just the right banner to ward dem lot off:

[Lemanrussland]

And all of them treated as pariahs, not respected coalition partners of the government.

Having a few seats in parliament is not the same bloody thing as being a close political ally of the prime minister. Marine Le Pen did not spend several months speaking to crowds from the same stage as the soon-to-be prime minister of France, for God's sake.

"False equivalence between far-right seats in parliament and far-right membership in governing coalition" should be another box in Kiev-apologist bingo. We need a shorter name for it, though. "Whitewashing fascist influence", maybe?

There was a right-wing nationalist party, the FPO, in Austria's governing coalition from 1999 to 2006. Jean Marie Le Pen got to the second round of the 2002 French election.

Russia needs to invade some more places.

The "oh my god, fascists!" thing is just an PR excuse to convince gullible Westerners and Russians that what Russia is doing is morally right. Russia is throwing a fit in Ukraine because it may fall into Western influence, nothing more, nothing less. If those fascists were on Russia's side, I'm sure Ukraine would be getting plenty of support from Moscow.

[Constantinopolis]

The "oh my god, fascists!" thing is just an PR excuse to convince gullible Westerners and Russians that what Russia is doing is morally right. Russia is throwing a fit in Ukraine because it may fall into Western influence, nothing more, nothing less. If those fascists were on Russia's side, I'm sure Ukraine would be getting plenty of support from Moscow.

A lying asshole motivated by self-interest can still happen to be doing the right thing, from time to time.

Russia isn't actually trying to do what's morally right - of course it is motivated by pure self-interest - but, in this case, Russia's self-interest coincides with what's morally right the lesser evil.

[Thellonya]

The "oh my god, fascists!" thing is just an PR excuse to convince gullible Westerners and Russians that what Russia is doing is morally right. Russia is throwing a fit in Ukraine because it may fall into Western influence, nothing more, nothing less. If those fascists were on Russia's side, I'm sure Ukraine would be getting plenty of support from Moscow.

A lying asshole motivated by self-interest can still happen to be doing the right thing, from time to time.

Russia isn't actually trying to do what's morally right - of course it is motivated by pure self-interest - but, in this case, Russia's self-interest coincides with what's morally right the lesser evil.

so if the lesser evil includes annexing half a nation, then i guess dats what we gon' do?

[Constantinopolis]

A lying asshole motivated by self-interest can still happen to be doing the right thing, from time to time.

Russia isn't actually trying to do what's morally right - of course it is motivated by pure self-interest - but, in this case, Russia's self-interest coincides with what's morally right the lesser evil.

so if the lesser evil includes annexing half a nation, then i guess dats what we gon' do?

Correct.

I wish we were not in this situation. But it doesn't matter what I wish. We ARE in this situation.

[Kelinfort]

so if the lesser evil includes annexing half a nation, then i guess dats what we gon' do?

Correct.

I wish we were not in this situation. But it doesn't matter what I wish. We ARE in this situation.

There's no clear indication it is the lesser of two evils. Svoboda's success is not guaranteed, and it's unlikely they'd ever form a government.

[Geilinor]

so if the lesser evil includes annexing half a nation, then i guess dats what we gon' do?

Correct.

I wish we were not in this situation. But it doesn't matter what I wish. We ARE in this situation.

Why is it necessary that half of Ukraine be annexed by Russia?

[The balkens]

Correct.

I wish we were not in this situation. But it doesn't matter what I wish. We ARE in this situation.

Why is it necessary that half of Ukraine be annexed by Russia?

Apparently they are that bad at geography. *Nods*

[Kouralia]

Why is it necessary that half of Ukraine be annexed by Russia?

Apparently they are that bad at geography. *Nods*

tbf, so is Canada.

[The balkens]

Apparently they are that bad at geography. *Nods*

tbf, so is Canada.

And the Germans. Remember that time when they thought that Austria was a part of Germany?

Serbs get special mention.

[Constantinopolis]

Correct.

I wish we were not in this situation. But it doesn't matter what I wish. We ARE in this situation.

Why is it necessary that half of Ukraine be annexed by Russia?

Because at this point it appears to be the only thing that could prevent the consolidation of an ultra-right-wing regime in Kiev that would implement harsh austerity measures and turn Ukraine into another Greece, ban socialist and communist organizations and imprison their members, glorify WW2-era fascists and thus enable further growth of fascism in the future, and join NATO and the EU, thereby (a) greatly strengthening right-wing blocs in the European Parliament and killing any possibility of a center-left majority for a generation, and (b) crippling Russia as a regional power and ensuring Western domination of the entire European continent.

Seriously, a victory for the Kiev government is bad for everyone except Western right-wingers. It would weaken Russia and weaken the Western left at the same time.

[The Lone Alliance]

Actually at the very worst it end up with a Korean war situation.

If on the extremely unlikely chance that NATO did intervene militarily inside Ukraine what's Russia going to do, launch a nuclear war for destroying units that were illegally invading another nation?

Hey, MacArthur once asked for A-bomb to use it in Korea... It's a mirecle that he didn't get it.

I believe it's because he attempted to go around Truman to get it.

And how would NATO intervene in the Ukraine in such a way, that Russia wouldn't find out? Did your guys in the lab after watching StarTrack for Nth time finally discovered the teleportation technology?

Can't beat the drones That and fast movers can be over central Ukraine in hours if Ukraine gave them clearance.

Ukraine hasn't given Clearance to Russia so Russia doesn't have any aircraft in the area yet.

Othervise, I can't see how "Nato would intervene militarily inside Ukraine". without Russia quckly taking such steps, as, I dunno, officialy recognizing its troops and calling this "Operation of enforement to peace", how it was done in 2008.

NATO could counter and say that Russia is lying to protect the rebels.

After all supposedly none of them are carrying ID proving themselves to be Russian soldiers.

The fact that they were killing pro-Russian Rebels was ample evidence that they aren't Pro-Russian anymore.

Sorry, care to elaborate a little more here? I fail to see your logic.

I fail to see yours.

Why would anyone like a nation that is purposely destabilizing their country?

I was saying that Ukrainian Military and Ukrainian so-called "volunteer battallions" of the National Guard were cilling civillians in droves. Now, another attempt to answer my question. Do you remember it? Or whould I repeat it?

Now you're trying to claim there's a genocide going on?

If Russia did launch an open invasion on Ukraine with the point of driving on Kiev then of course they'd be attempting to steal Ukrainian territories.

They've already stolen Crimea after all.

So, no evidence?

*Points to Crimea.*
Ukrainian land, stolen by Russia.

[Germanic Templars]

*Points to Crimea.*
Ukrainian land, stolen by Russia.

[sarcasm] But they didn't steal, TLA, there was a "vote" on it.[/sarcasm]

[Thellonya]

Why is it necessary that half of Ukraine be annexed by Russia?

Because at this point it appears to be the only thing that could prevent the consolidation of an ultra-right-wing regime in Kiev that would implement harsh austerity measures and turn Ukraine into another Greece, ban socialist and communist organizations and imprison their members, glorify WW2-era fascists and thus enable further growth of fascism in the future, and join NATO and the EU, thereby (a) greatly strengthening right-wing blocs in the European Parliament and killing any possibility of a center-left majority for a generation, and (b) crippling Russia as a regional power and ensuring Western domination of the entire European continent.

Am i the only one who thinks taking half of Ukraine would make Right Sector/Svoboda's rise even more likely than it is now?

[Constantinopolis]

Because at this point it appears to be the only thing that could prevent the consolidation of an ultra-right-wing regime in Kiev that would implement harsh austerity measures and turn Ukraine into another Greece, ban socialist and communist organizations and imprison their members, glorify WW2-era fascists and thus enable further growth of fascism in the future, and join NATO and the EU, thereby (a) greatly strengthening right-wing blocs in the European Parliament and killing any possibility of a center-left majority for a generation, and (b) crippling Russia as a regional power and ensuring Western domination of the entire European continent.

Am i the only one who thinks taking half of Ukraine would make Right Sector/Svoboda's rise even more likely than it is now?

You're right, but I regard their rise as inevitable, so there isn't anything left to lose.

The Kiev government is going to hit the population hard with austerity measures, and they will need a scapegoat for popular anger in order to deflect that anger away from themselves. The scapegoat will be Russia. The Russians will be blamed for anything bad that happens in Ukraine, even when it's the government's fault. This will cause a rise in nationalism. So Svoboda and Right Sector will rise.

Basically, it's going to be similar to the Greek scenario. And look at Golden Dawn over there.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Am i the only one who thinks taking half of Ukraine would make Right Sector/Svoboda's rise even more likely than it is now?

You're right, but I regard their rise as inevitable, so there isn't anything left to lose.

The Kiev government is going to hit the population hard with austerity measures, and they will need a scapegoat for popular anger in order to deflect that anger away from themselves. The scapegoat will be Russia. The Russians will be blamed for anything bad that happens in Ukraine, even when it's the government's fault. This will cause a rise in nationalism. So Svoboda and Right Sector will rise.

So the solution is clearly to justify all that potential scapegoating by invading the country?

Swell thinkin' there Vlad ol' buddy. That's certain to make sure Ukraine doesn't become hostile to Russia.

[Constantinopolis]

You're right, but I regard their rise as inevitable, so there isn't anything left to lose.

The Kiev government is going to hit the population hard with austerity measures, and they will need a scapegoat for popular anger in order to deflect that anger away from themselves. The scapegoat will be Russia. The Russians will be blamed for anything bad that happens in Ukraine, even when it's the government's fault. This will cause a rise in nationalism. So Svoboda and Right Sector will rise.

So the solution is clearly to justify all that potential scapegoating by invading the country?

Swell thinkin' there Vlad ol' buddy. That's certain to make sure Ukraine doesn't become hostile to Russia.

The point is that it's too late to avoid it now, so might as well go all in.

We passed the point of no return when the armed rebellions in Donetsk and Lugansk began. Before then, my view was that Russia should leave Ukraine alone, in order to allow the new regime to discredit itself, hopefully leading to a better political situation. But now? After a civil war has been going on for months? It's too late to back out. Far-right nationalism is going to rise in Ukraine, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent it, and force has become the only option for stopping it.

Yes, Putin shares a lot of the blame for getting to this point (although the fault lies mainly with Yanukovych). But he's also the only one who can do any damage control right now, so I support him in doing that.

If you don't understand how that works, consider the situation in Iraq. Whose fault is it that we got here? The US's fault, mainly. But do I support US military action to fix the mess they've created? Damn right I do.