Ukraine Crisis II: Electric Boogaloo

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Just heard on the radio Donetsk has been retaken by pro-Kyiv forces? Looking for a source...

There was a town in Donetsk called Svyatogorsk that was apparently retaken.
Perhaps that is what you heard.

[Lemanrussland]

Just heard on the radio Donetsk has been retaken by pro-Kyiv forces? Looking for a source...

Sviatohirsk was retaken by government forces, that's all I've heard.

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukrain ... 44802.html

[Soviet Russia Republic]

Svoboda is the one with the government positions, ministries and so on though. The Right Sector was never given any seats in the cabinet or anything like that.

Right, both are on the far right though and played a role helping put securing the new government. The right winged militants are not just made up of right sector persons.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Just heard on the radio Donetsk has been retaken by pro-Kyiv forces? Looking for a source...

Sviatohirsk was retaken by government forces, that's all I've heard.

https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukrain ... 44802.html

That must be what was meant.
The radio update was from Fox News after all.

[Rio Cana]

Honestly, Russia needs to leave Crimea, and Eastern Ukraine. Russia is basically trying to start WWIII by deliberately starting these terrorist operations in Donetsk and Eastern Ukarine. Donetsk Republic should be condemned as a terrorist organization and a UN mission should be sent to Donetsk. US, Georgia and Belgium should get involved.

First off no one is going to fight world war three over Ukraine. Second Russia is not leaving Crimea, something every nation (even Ukraine) seems to understand. I'm curious if you would of called the western Ukrainians who pulled off the same type of stunts as those in the East as "terrorists". With one even declaring independence from Kiev when it was under the control of the old government still.

There are some groups in Hungaria and Romania that would like back some former territories that they lost to the Soviets and which were made part of Ukraine.

This for the Hungarians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakarpattia_Oblast

This for the Romanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak

and this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi_Oblast

[Equalium]

Honestly, Russia needs to leave Crimea, and Eastern Ukraine. Russia is basically trying to start WWIII by deliberately starting these terrorist operations in Donetsk and Eastern Ukarine. Donetsk Republic should be condemned as a terrorist organization and a UN mission should be sent to Donetsk. US, Georgia and Belgium should get involved.

First off no one is going to fight world war three over Ukraine. Second Russia is not leaving Crimea, something every nation (even Ukraine) seems to understand. I'm curious if you would of called the western Ukrainians who pulled off the same type of stunts as those in the East as "terrorists". With one even declaring independence from Kiev when it was under the control of the old government still.

Says you, pro Russian.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

First off no one is going to fight world war three over Ukraine. Second Russia is not leaving Crimea, something every nation (even Ukraine) seems to understand. I'm curious if you would of called the western Ukrainians who pulled off the same type of stunts as those in the East as "terrorists". With one even declaring independence from Kiev when it was under the control of the old government still.

There are some groups in Hungaria and Romania that would like back some former territories that they lost to the Soviets and which were made part of Ukraine.

This for the Hungarians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakarpattia_Oblast

This for the Romanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak

and this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi_Oblast

The Kiev Junta is always droning on about how they reject the Soviet legacy. It seems only fair then that they forfeit the very generous borders drawn by the USSR.

[Lemanrussland]

First off no one is going to fight world war three over Ukraine. Second Russia is not leaving Crimea, something every nation (even Ukraine) seems to understand. I'm curious if you would of called the western Ukrainians who pulled off the same type of stunts as those in the East as "terrorists". With one even declaring independence from Kiev when it was under the control of the old government still.

There are some groups in Hungaria and Romania that would like back some former territories that they lost to the Soviets and which were made part of Ukraine.

This for the Hungarians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakarpattia_Oblast

This for the Romanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak

and this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi_Oblast

Crazy irredentist groups, yeah.

No one in any of those country's governments will pursue those territorial claims seriously, unless you have some kind of massive destabilization of those countries. Pretty much all of those territorial transfers have been recognized by the states involved.

[Gravlen]

.

[Gravlen]

It was indeed convincing arguments.

Following good general's fine logic and analysis we can safely accuse Gimli son of Gloin of being a pro-russian separatist.

Weak excuse for picspam.

How dare are they! By Jingo, they must follow the example of Gen Philip Breedlove, Nato's commander in Europe, who, without using [...] any photos, argued convincingly last week that they must be "Russian forces".

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I didn't do that.

Svoboda is the one with the government positions, ministries and so on though. The Right Sector was never given any seats in the cabinet or anything like that.

pfffftttt whatever, everyone knows Ukraine is the Fourth Reich.

[Soviet Russia Republic]

First off no one is going to fight world war three over Ukraine. Second Russia is not leaving Crimea, something every nation (even Ukraine) seems to understand. I'm curious if you would of called the western Ukrainians who pulled off the same type of stunts as those in the East as "terrorists". With one even declaring independence from Kiev when it was under the control of the old government still.

Says you, pro Russian.

Says anyone with a shred of common sense and knowledge on the situation. I don't know which part you would dispute, the first parts would show a lack of common sense. The USA doesn't even want to send Ukraine small arms for Christ's sake and ruled out military options repeatably. The disputing of the last part would show a lack of basic knowledge of the Ukrainian crisis . Anyway my sig is a bit outdated, I'm no pro any of those things anymore. I'm not pro any country, they can all burn.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

There are some groups in Hungaria and Romania that would like back some former territories that they lost to the Soviets and which were made part of Ukraine.

This for the Hungarians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakarpattia_Oblast

This for the Romanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak

and this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi_Oblast

Crazy irredentist groups, yeah.

No one in any of those country's governments will pursue those territorial claims seriously, unless you have some kind of massive destabilization of those countries. Pretty much all of those territorial transfers have been recognized by the states involved.

This, so much this. Jobbik and such are not representative of either the general populations or of their respective governments.

[Rio Cana]

I found this old article with a map which shows an independent Ukraine after the new Russian government signed a treaty with the Central Powers before the end of WW I.

Map is large. Includes an article. It seems Crimea and the part North of it was not claimed by the Ukraine. Also, Bessarabia was not claimed by them.
http://www.krausehouse.ca/krause/images ... aurida.gif

[Gravlen]

Says you, pro Russian.

Says anyone with a shred of common sense and knowledge on the situation. I don't know which part you would dispute, the first parts would show a lack of common sense. The USA doesn't even want to send Ukraine small arms for Christ's sake and ruled out military options repeatably. The disputing of the last part would show a lack of basic knowledge of the Ukrainian crisis . Anyway my sig is a bit outdated, I'm no pro any of those things anymore. I'm not pro any country, they can all burn.

[European Socialist Republic]

Svoboda is the one with the government positions, ministries and so on though. The Right Sector was never given any seats in the cabinet or anything like that.

pfffftttt whatever, everyone knows Ukraine is the Fourth Reich.

I always thought that was the EU.

[Lemanrussland]

I found this old article with a map which shows an independent Ukraine after the new Russian government signed a treaty with the Central Powers before the end of WW I.

Map is large. Includes an article. It seems Crimea and the part North of it was not claimed by the Ukraine. Also, Bessarabia was not claimed by them.
http://www.krausehouse.ca/krause/images ... aurida.gif

You can dig up maps like that all day long to back up a myriad of irredentist claims.

What matters is the state of the borders of the constituent Soviet republics upon the breakup of the USSR. Those are the legal borders, and were mutually recognized and agreed upon through a series of treaties.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I found this old article with a map which shows an independent Ukraine after the new Russian government signed a treaty with the Central Powers before the end of WW I.

Map is large. Includes an article. It seems Crimea and the part North of it was not claimed by the Ukraine. Also, Bessarabia was not claimed by them.
http://www.krausehouse.ca/krause/images ... aurida.gif

There were actually three "Ukraines" at that time. Two "Peoples Republics" and a "Soviet Republic" (which evolved from the Republic of Soviets, which overlapped with the Soviet Republic for a while...) which claimed various overlapping areas. There was also the German puppet/military regime which technically lasted until Brest-Litovsk was annulled.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Says you, pro Russian.

Says anyone with a shred of common sense and knowledge on the situation. I don't know which part you would dispute, the first parts would show a lack of common sense. The USA doesn't even want to send Ukraine small arms for Christ's sake and ruled out military options repeatably. The disputing of the last part would show a lack of basic knowledge of the Ukrainian crisis . Anyway my sig is a bit outdated, I'm no pro any of those things anymore. I'm not pro any country, they can all burn.

riiight... so you're essentially an anarchist now ???

[Shofercia]

Trying to prove that it'd go from bad to worse no matter what Putin did. If things are going to shit, you might as well grab a Crimea or two

Why can't Putin invade countries that deserve it?

Because then no one will Crimea River

Joking aside, you're not getting it, so let me write it in caps for you: UKRAINIANS ARE TIRED OF OLIGARCHS!!!

Ogilarchs are really the only people who have the power to run the country. Kinda sad, but that's how it is. Unless you think that Putin can somehow pull a bureaucrat from the sunshine that radiates from his colon and bless Ukraine with the gift of competent governance.

You can do what Putin did in Russia or what the EU did in Poland. Both sides removed a good chunk of oligarchs, and Putin forced the remaining ones to pay taxes. So did the EU. Ukraine needs less oligarchs, not more of them.

IF, INSTEAD OF IMPOSING MORE OLIGARCHS ON EASTERN UKRAINE.

They weren't imposed. Unless you think being appointed by the Parliament within the confines of the Ukrainian constitution is imposed. Maybe the self-appointed mayors and government officials of eastern Ukraine have been imposed, correct?

I'm talking about major Oligarchs, not self-appointed mayors. And yeah, they've been imposed by an unelected government that illegally impeached an elected president: http://news.uk.msn.com/world/ukraine-ol ... n-key-jobs

In a surprising move after Russia flexed its military might in the Crimea, Ukraine's new leadership has reached out to oligarchs for help - appointing them as governors in eastern regions where loyalties to Moscow are strong.

KIEV WOULD'VE SACKED AN OLIGARCH OR TWO NOT TIED TO YANUK'S CLIQUE, THERE MIGHT'VE BEEN A CHANCE TO RECONCILE, HOWEVER SLIGHT.

Yeah no. Even if the government had shown leniency (and that I very much doubt), the people wouldn't have.

How exactly is removing an oligarch, showing leniency?

Got that?

I get that you think whatever Russia does, it can't be blamed even slightly and that it's all everyone else fault. I get that. We all do.

I've critiqued Russia's response to Libya, the anti-LGBT bill, the EG reforms, etc, etc, etc. But those who have been brainwashed by propaganda tend to forget actual facts, and think that removing oligarchs is showing leniency.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

pfffftttt whatever, everyone knows Ukraine is the Fourth Reich.

I always thought that was the EU.

Responding to sarcasm with sarcasm does make for a heck of a stalemate .

[The balkens]

I always thought that was the EU.

Responding to sarcasm with sarcasm does make for a heck of a stalemate .

The cold war in a nut shell.

[Shofercia]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27124453

Russia is threatening war some more.

The US has called on Moscow to ask pro-Russian gunmen to lay down their weapons and leave public buildings. It has also urged Russia to tone down its aggressive rhetoric or face further sanctions.

"If our interests, our legitimate interests, the interests of Russians have been attacked directly, like they were in South Ossetia for example, I do not see any other way but to respond in full accordance with international law," Mr Lavrov said.

Mr Lavrov also reiterated accusations that Kiev had failed to fulfil commitments laid out in the 17 April Geneva accord designed to end the crisis.

The Russian foreign ministry statement accused Kiev and the West of distorting the agreement, which called for illegal armed groups to be disarmed.

The ministry said the West insisted only on the need for pro-Russian groups to put down their weapons.

I don't understand why the Ukrainians don't take some action against the right wing militias to claim the moral highground. If they did do that, Russia would really have no leg to stand on.

Because they can't. The government is too inept to do that. So we'll be getting the Right Sector spin about how they're trying to tone down their activism, and become a legitimate political party, while remaining heavily armed, and terrorizing people they don't like, i.e. that journalist who got beaten up, Tsarev the presidential candidate, etc.

Simon Ostrovsky (VICE news correspondent) is, it seems, a Pravy Sektor agent according to the 'people's mayor' of Slovyansk.

Translate:

ak said Mayor People Sloviansk Vyacheslav Ponomarev, Ostrovsky currently under arrest . Militia assured that contained alien " under normal conditions, is supplied with power ", reports "Interfax" .

Vyacheslav Ponomarev , "This journalist (he has dual citizenship in Israel and the United States ) is really self-defense forces detained . According to our data , it is the informant "right sector . '"

Earlier, some media reported that Slovyansk was abducted by U.S. Internet Publishing Vice News Simon Ostrovsky .

Later , the OSCE representative Dunja Mijatovic , referring to these reports , demanded the release of foreigners who , with her words , forcibly keep unknown in uniform.

Meanwhile, in the Slovyansk , despite the start of a military operation today , remains calm . Work all utilities, open trade institutions , children went to school , on the streets is not shootings .

Vyacheslav Ponomarev : "It was an extension from the raisins in our side to ten BTR with the military, which we tracked . Passed five kilometers , turned , and then dug . And this so-called " anti-terrorist operation " until over. "

More on NTV.Ru : http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/923739/ # ixzz2zjTRNA5B

"According to our data, he is an informant of the right sector."

Interesting. No proof, just "according to our data."

Hopefully they don't torture him and force him to make some bullshit confession, like other extremist groups have done to Westerners in the past.

That's a very stupid move. Ostrovski places his dispatches for everyone to see. He's not an informant.

First off no one is going to fight world war three over Ukraine. Second Russia is not leaving Crimea, something every nation (even Ukraine) seems to understand. I'm curious if you would of called the western Ukrainians who pulled off the same type of stunts as those in the East as "terrorists". With one even declaring independence from Kiev when it was under the control of the old government still.

Says you, pro Russian.

If you actually think that Ukraine's worth a World War, you're the one who's deluded.

[Soviet Russia Republic]

Says anyone with a shred of common sense and knowledge on the situation. I don't know which part you would dispute, the first parts would show a lack of common sense. The USA doesn't even want to send Ukraine small arms for Christ's sake and ruled out military options repeatably. The disputing of the last part would show a lack of basic knowledge of the Ukrainian crisis . Anyway my sig is a bit outdated, I'm no pro any of those things anymore. I'm not pro any country, they can all burn.

riiight... so you're essentially an anarchist now ???

No. I've just developed an extremely low opinion of people in general that isn't limited to nationality, ethnicity, religious following or non religious following, etc. This doesn't really have anything much to do with my pointing out the lack of sense in the persons post on Ukraine though. Other than the sheer stupidity of someone quoting a post and disputing it simply by saying "says pro-Rusisan"...which isn't even what I am anymore although understandably one might think that due to my laziness and lack of desire to bother updating the pro and anti section. Or the RP section since I don't rp anymore either ha.

[Rio Cana]

There are some groups in Hungaria and Romania that would like back some former territories that they lost to the Soviets and which were made part of Ukraine.

This for the Hungarians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakarpattia_Oblast

This for the Romanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak

and this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi_Oblast

Crazy irredentist groups, yeah.

No one in any of those country's governments will pursue those territorial claims seriously, unless you have some kind of massive destabilization of those countries. Pretty much all of those territorial transfers have been recognized by the states involved.

Some say the Romanian government has a plan to try to lure back Moldova and Budjak which is part of Ukraine.

Read this - http://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/27595