Christian theological question.

[Acadzia]

Does God elect certain people to go to heaven/hell?

A yes/no answer will suffice, with appropriate scriptural backing.

If you say yes, what, then, are the criteria for God's choice?

If no, does this mean he doesn't have absolute sovereignty over what happens?

It has been my contention, since I first became self-aware, that deity, if indeed he does exist, does play favorites. He/she/it/they has no particular criteria, he/she/it/they is just f..in bloody minded, contrary and arbitrary. This comes not from scripture, but from observation - I have, in the course of 62 years, observed idiots, fools, felons and general asshats getting all the good and decent, intelligent caring folks getting screwed.

O hai C S Lewis

[Anti-Social Darwinism]

Does God elect certain people to go to heaven/hell?

A yes/no answer will suffice, with appropriate scriptural backing.

If you say yes, what, then, are the criteria for God's choice?

If no, does this mean he doesn't have absolute sovereignty over what happens?

It has been my contention, since I first became self-aware, that deity, if indeed he does exist, does play favorites. He/she/it/they has no particular criteria, he/she/it/they is just f..in bloody minded, contrary and arbitrary. This comes not from scripture, but from observation - I have, in the course of 62 years, observed idiots, fools, felons and general asshats getting all the good and decent, intelligent caring folks getting screwed.

O hai C S Lewis

I could, however, cite some scripture ... the story of Job - classic abuser/abusee syndrome with no particular consideration for other people - wives, sons and daughters are killed without an apology or a by-your-leave just because they were associated with Job and for no other reason. The story of Judas Iscariot ... a man who did what he was supposed to do (without his particular actions, there would have been no Biblical savior risen from the dead myth) and condemned for it. The story of the children torn apart by the bear for teasing an ill-tempered prophet. The story of Cain, who from what I can see, was abused, neglected and ignored because he chose the wrong profession (farmer) while Abel chose the right one (herdsman). Then, of course, there's the prodigal son - he spends everything and comes home, sick and in debt and is reinstated as an heir. The good son gets no recognition. Oh yeah, prime examples of how a just and loving god treats his creation. Humbug.

[Acadzia]

Nah, really, you sound like Mr. Lewis prior to his conversion. Have you ever read any of his stuff? Besides Narnia lol.

[Anti-Social Darwinism]

Nah, really, you sound like Mr. Lewis prior to his conversion. Have you ever read any of his stuff? Besides Narnia lol.

I've read the Screwtape Letters, Out of the Silent Planet, That Hideous Strength, Perelandra and several other of his books.

[Acadzia]

Nah, really, you sound like Mr. Lewis prior to his conversion. Have you ever read any of his stuff? Besides Narnia lol.

I've read the Screwtape Letters, Out of the Silent Planet, That Hideous Strength, Perelandra and several other of his books.

Sweet. I'd recommend Surprised by Joy and A Grief Observed, if you haven't read those. Does a lot to help explain the whole "Why do bad things happen to good people?" question.

[Anti-Social Darwinism]

Nah, really, you sound like Mr. Lewis prior to his conversion. Have you ever read any of his stuff? Besides Narnia lol.

I've read the Screwtape Letters, Out of the Silent Planet, That Hideous Strength, Perelandra and several other of his books.

Sweet. I'd recommend Surprised by Joy and A Grief Observed, if you haven't read those. Does a lot to help explain the whole "Why do bad things happen to good people?" question.

I've read Surprised by Joy. My particular observation of Lewis is that he's writing about personal revelation. This is something that applies only to him and his life and experience. In other words, it's a nice story and I'm happy for him, but it has no relevance to me and my life and experience.

[Acadzia]

Yeah, I definitely see that, too, but conversion stories and intimate experiences intrigue me more than just cold, impersonal apologetics.

[Skibereen]

Are you talking about predestination, or just whether God in the end decides who gets to go where?

I believe they would likely go hand in hand, right? God predestines a certain amount of people to become the elect, and the rest go to hell, right?

No. Scripture doesnt support predestination. Fate is not a Christian concept.

In Christian mythology God lays down the options and lets you free to make your decision--does this mean he lacks sovereignty over you? No. If I have the power to prevent you from doing something that will hurt you(and I dont stop you) isnt the same as me making you make the choice to hurt yourself. Does this conflict with omniscience > Yes in my feeble brain it most certainly does, but then if I believed in a God who had the same level of reasoning and understanding as Man then I wouldnt believe in much of a God.

I chose spam-fam in your poll since yes and no are both wrong as my understanding of Christian mythology sees them.

[Pope Joan]

Here is the pertinent article from the ultra-Calvinist Canons of Dordt
from a Reformed Church sources.

The Reformed Church still avows these points, which clearly do support an affirmation of predestination to hell as well as to heaven.

"Article 6: God's Eternal Decree

The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from God's eternal decree. "Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things known from long ago." In accordance with this decree God graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of the chosen ones and inclines them to believe, but by just judgment God leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen. And in this especially is disclosed to us God's act--unfathomable, and as merciful as it is just--of distinguishing between people equally lost. This is the well-known decision of election and reprobation revealed in God's Word. The wicked, impure, and unstable distort this decree to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words."

http://www.rca.org/Page.aspx?pid=415

Sorry guys, that may be your God but it ain't mine.

[Skibereen]

Whats the Basis for the opinion Pope? I mean its a facinating read but what is it scriptural foundation? I could right something fancy and call it good--but that dont make it so. I mean is this a twist on the concept of Grace?

[Pope Joan]

Whats the Basis for the opinion Pope? I mean its a facinating read but what is it scriptural foundation? I could right something fancy and call it good--but that dont make it so. I mean is this a twist on the concept of Grace?

it is an extension of Calvinism, and a response to J. Arminius who, yes, proposed a more "free grace" approach to his fellow Presbyterians and was rejected for his efforts.

Here are the complete canons of Dordt, with their attendant scripture justifications.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... dordt.html

Reliance seems to be mainly placed on Ephesians 1:4-6, 1:11, 2:8; Acts 15: 18; Romans 8:30; Romans 9:11-13; Acts 13:48; Phil (Philemon? Philippians? I don't care to bother finding out) 1:29.

As for me I always go to the source, good old Jesus himself, who said "Gos so loved the world...God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world....It is not the will of the father that any should perish."

But of course paul and Calvin and the Dutch Reformed Church know so much more of the mind of God than Jesus ever did.

[Acadzia]

Paul gets a hard rap, I don't think he ever planned to become the most misquoted, quote-mined man in history, but alas, I think he is.

[Pope Joan]

Paul gets a hard rap, I don't think he ever planned to become the most misquoted, quote-mined man in history, but alas, I think he is.

Well said.

He was mostly writing encouragement (or reproof) for congregations he had started; not attempting systematic theology.

I like what you say about "mining"; it's all very selective, isn't it? Find some gem you like and discard the rest?

[Acadzia]

Paul gets a hard rap, I don't think he ever planned to become the most misquoted, quote-mined man in history, but alas, I think he is.

Well said.

He was mostly writing encouragement (or reproof) for congregations he had started; not attempting systematic theology.

I like what you say about "mining"; it's all very selective, isn't it? Find some gem you like and discard the rest?

Haha, thanks, but I think Shane Claiborne said it better than I did:

"We do need to be born again, since Jesus said that to a guy named Nicodemus. But if you tell me I have to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God, I can tell you that you have to sell everything you have and give it to the poor, because Jesus said that to one guy, too. But I guess that's why God invented highlighers, so we can highlight the parts we like and ignore the rest."

[Skibereen]

Whats the Basis for the opinion Pope? I mean its a facinating read but what is it scriptural foundation? I could right something fancy and call it good--but that dont make it so. I mean is this a twist on the concept of Grace?

it is an extension of Calvinism, and a response to J. Arminius who, yes, proposed a more "free grace" approach to his fellow Presbyterians and was rejected for his efforts.

Here are the complete canons of Dordt, with their attendant scripture justifications.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... dordt.html

Reliance seems to be mainly placed on Ephesians 1:4-6, 1:11, 2:8; Acts 15: 18; Romans 8:30; Romans 9:11-13; Acts 13:48; Phil (Philemon? Philippians? I don't care to bother finding out) 1:29.

As for me I always go to the source, good old Jesus himself, who said "Gos so loved the world...God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world....It is not the will of the father that any should perish."

But of course paul and Calvin and the Dutch Reformed Church know so much more of the mind of God than Jesus ever did.

The red words tend to be my default mechanism. Forgive me iam not familiar with Calvinism beyond what I learned in grade school.
I like Paul...I am not certain I could get predestination from Paul...but then I am not a theologian. better that way it seems.

[Christo Redemptor]

Yes. Read the verses the person above mentioned. Unconditional election is certainly true, God will give faith to those whom he choose. Of course, the others have the bible, which will help in their salvation, but they can reject it. However, predestined to go to hell... I'm suspicious of that idea.

[Natalyas]

Paul gets a hard rap, I don't think he ever planned to become the most misquoted, quote-mined man in history, but alas, I think he is.

A pity that whoever wrote his character doesn't get mentioned in the credits.

[Skeptikosia]

Does God elect certain people to go to heaven/hell?

A yes/no answer will suffice, with appropriate scriptural backing.

If you say yes, what, then, are the criteria for God's choice?

If no, does this mean he doesn't have absolute sovereignty over what happens?

It has been my contention, since I first became self-aware, that deity, if indeed he does exist, does play favorites. He/she/it/they has no particular criteria, he/she/it/they is just f..in bloody minded, contrary and arbitrary. This comes not from scripture, but from observation - I have, in the course of 62 years, observed idiots, fools, felons and general asshats getting all the good and decent, intelligent caring folks getting screwed.

O hai C S Lewis

I could, however, cite some scripture ... the story of Job - classic abuser/abusee syndrome with no particular consideration for other people - wives, sons and daughters are killed without an apology or a by-your-leave just because they were associated with Job and for no other reason. The story of Judas Iscariot ... a man who did what he was supposed to do (without his particular actions, there would have been no Biblical savior risen from the dead myth) and condemned for it. The story of the children torn apart by the bear for teasing an ill-tempered prophet. The story of Cain, who from what I can see, was abused, neglected and ignored because he chose the wrong profession (farmer) while Abel chose the right one (herdsman). Then, of course, there's the prodigal son - he spends everything and comes home, sick and in debt and is reinstated as an heir. The good son gets no recognition. Oh yeah, prime examples of how a just and loving god treats his creation. Humbug.

Something I read from a sci fi compilation a few years ago that stuck with me.

[The New Everlasting]

We all have the chance to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Our Heavenly Father loves us very much, and that's what he wants for us.

[Ausztralia]

Does God elect certain people to go to heaven/hell?

A yes/no answer will suffice, with appropriate scriptural backing.

If you say yes, what, then, are the criteria for God's choice?

If no, does this mean he doesn't have absolute sovereignty over what happens?

Yes, He does, but it's kind of our decision too.

There is a clear set of instructions to follow in the bible, as stated in Acts 2v38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"
The evidence of recieving the Holy Spirt is speaking in tounges as described in Acts 2v4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tounges, as the Spirit gave them utterance"
It says in John 3v5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (meaning full immersion baptisim) and of the Spirit (being filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tounges), he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
Meaning if a person does not get baptised my full immersion, not just sprinkling, and filled with the Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tounges, they will not be able to get into heaven.

[The New Everlasting]

Does God elect certain people to go to heaven/hell?

A yes/no answer will suffice, with appropriate scriptural backing.

If you say yes, what, then, are the criteria for God's choice?

If no, does this mean he doesn't have absolute sovereignty over what happens?

Yes, He does.

There is a clear set of instructions to follow in the bible, as stated in Acts 2v38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"
The evidence of recieving the Holy Spirt is speaking in tounges as described in Acts 2v4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tounges, as the Spirit gave them utterance"
It says in John 3v5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (meaning full immersion baptisim) and of the Spirit (being filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tounges), he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
Meaning if a person does not get baptised my full immersion, not just sprinkling, and filled with the Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tounges, they will not be able to get into heaven.

There are more gifts of the Holy Ghost than speaking in tongues. I'd go over them, but I got church for the next 4 hours.

[Ausztralia]

Does God elect certain people to go to heaven/hell?

A yes/no answer will suffice, with appropriate scriptural backing.

If you say yes, what, then, are the criteria for God's choice?

If no, does this mean he doesn't have absolute sovereignty over what happens?

Yes, He does.

There is a clear set of instructions to follow in the bible, as stated in Acts 2v38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"
The evidence of recieving the Holy Spirt is speaking in tounges as described in Acts 2v4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tounges, as the Spirit gave them utterance"
It says in John 3v5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (meaning full immersion baptisim) and of the Spirit (being filled with the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tounges), he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
Meaning if a person does not get baptised my full immersion, not just sprinkling, and filled with the Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tounges, they will not be able to get into heaven.

There are more gifts of the Holy Ghost than speaking in tongues. I'd go over them, but I got church for the next 4 hours.

Speaking in tounges is the evidence of having the Holy Ghost. I don't disagree that there are many gifts coming from the Holy Ghost.

[Yenke-Bin]

Speaking in tounges is the evidence of having the Holy Ghost. I don't disagree that there are many gifts coming from the Holy Ghost.

And what are you views of speaking in tongues? Some people believe that just any old jibberish they speak is "speaking in tongues", and they have someone who really doesn't know what is being said,, come over, and try to translate it.

That kind of is against the Scriptures. Speaking of tongues, in Acts 2, was a way to preach the gospel in languages of the people in Jerusalem at the time. Thus someone could translate it, because it was their native tongue.

[Yenke-Bin]

Does God elect certain people to go to heaven/hell?

A yes/no answer will suffice, with appropriate scriptural backing.

If you say yes, what, then, are the criteria for God's choice?

If no, does this mean he doesn't have absolute sovereignty over what happens?

Do you follow Calvin's teachings or something?

I am offended.

[Ashmoria]

Here is the pertinent article from the ultra-Calvinist Canons of Dordt
from a Reformed Church sources.

The Reformed Church still avows these points, which clearly do support an affirmation of predestination to hell as well as to heaven.

"Article 6: God's Eternal Decree

The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from God's eternal decree. "Thus says the Lord, who has been making these things known from long ago." In accordance with this decree God graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of the chosen ones and inclines them to believe, but by just judgment God leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen. And in this especially is disclosed to us God's act--unfathomable, and as merciful as it is just--of distinguishing between people equally lost. This is the well-known decision of election and reprobation revealed in God's Word. The wicked, impure, and unstable distort this decree to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words."

http://www.rca.org/Page.aspx?pid=415

Sorry guys, that may be your God but it ain't mine.

isnt that an extremely ugly view of god?