Ukrainian Crisis

[Occupied Deutschland]

Free trade =/= free travel.

I'm talking about why they will be denied accession to the EU, because this FTA was just a bait.

Indeed, and Russian Special Forces are responsible for Crimean ideas about secession.

Also, in EU-related news, according to google translate of this the head of Foreign Affairs for the European Parliament says he thinks the EU will provide "20 billion euros of support to save Ukraine from default".

[Costa Fierro]

I'm talking about why they will be denied accession to the EU, because this FTA was just a bait.

Indeed, and Russian Special Forces are responsible for Crimean ideas about secession.

Also, in EU-related news, according to google translate of this the head of Foreign Affairs for the European Parliament says he thinks the EU will provide "20 billion euros of support to save Ukraine from default".

I read that as "the Germans" seeing as the rest of the EU doesn't have that much spare cash lying around.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

In somewhat more lighthearted Ukraine-related news, Yanukovych had/has a yacht named 'Bandido'.

(Image)

Spanish puns in Ukraine, truly the result of our globalized world.

He also had vodka with his face stamped on the bottle and a restaurant made out of a galley. Go figure.

[Agritum]

In somewhat more lighthearted Ukraine-related news, Yanukovych had/has a yacht named 'Bandido'.

(Image)

Spanish puns in Ukraine, truly the result of our globalized world.

He also had vodka with his face stamped on the bottle and a restaurant made out of a galley. Go figure.

Ceausescu 2.0?

[Rio Cana]

They're already poor.

If they get more inequality, I don't see any reason to not label them as third world. :/

I guess that the smartest move for Eastern and Southern Ukraine would be dumping Central and Western Ukraine and make a new country of their own... so to leave the debts to Kiev.

Debts and the contaminated and abandoned city of Pripyat

[Rio Cana]

In somewhat more lighthearted Ukraine-related news, Yanukovych had/has a yacht named 'Bandido'.

(Image)

Spanish puns in Ukraine, truly the result of our globalized world.

Maybe he got the name for his yacht from this Spanish song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA9p_fpUxnY

Unless he is into Mexican Music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx7WoBtGe7A

[Shofercia]

Being a Russophile doesn't mean being pro-Putin.

Just like being an ukrainian patriot does not mean to be a neo-nazi. The Russian government should know that and unfortunately Yankuvych`s russian regime figured that too late.

Never said it does. I said that you have Neo-Nazis, i.e. Tignyabok's "Svoboda" party, in your coalition. And if you're going to ally with Neo Nazis, don't expect help from Russia.

Incorrect as usual EUstan. Those regions weren't Russified by Stalin. Those were Russian regions. There have always been more Russians that Ukrainians in Crimea. And I can also find nasty youtube videos of the other side doing just that.

The point of the video is not to show how violent Crimea is but how fanatic about Russia they are. I also had the Russian Empire on mind.

stalin was a Russian nationalist and his policies were pro-russian, the evidence to that is that even Lenin called him a greater Russian bully. Holdomor was a example, it was targeted against the western population of Ukraine to strenght the russian elements in Ukraine.

The Russian in Crimea should learn that their country is Ukraine and not Russia, I hope the new government will start to re-educated them through institutions.

Reeducate them? That sounds rather Stalinist. Do you also plan to employ the Gulags in their reeducation, EUstan? Stalin was NOT a Russian Nationalist, because a Russian Nationalist wouldn't be carving Russia into nationality-based countries after the Congress-Kingdom Poland fiasco. There's also the matter of Crimea being Russian for several centuries, and that Crimea was a part of the Russian RFSFR, just like Kaliningrad, until Khrushchev made the mistake of transferring it to Ukraine.

Russian speaking doesn't mean pro-Russian. Svoboda are Neo Nazis, and there isn't much evidence on how Bandera fought against Nazis: http://hnn.us/article/122778

Hmm... Well I could quote also historians from the opposite side. Regardless about the debate about him, nobody is dening that he survived Sachsenhausen concentration camp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Ban ... zi_Germany

This indicated that he was not a Nazi although he considered to do that at the begin and given that the Ukrainians thought that everything is better than Soviet rule in the early days of the war. Also, the USSR was allied with Nazi Germany 1939-1941.

That was a mistake. We don't hail that alliance. We admit that was a mistake. We explain why we made said mistake, and admit that was a mistake. It'd be awfully nice of Ukrainians to do the same when it comes to Bandera.

Also, try again what makes the Freedom party nazi?
-they dont use Nazi iconography
-they dont have anything against blacks and other people of different color (at least there is any report in the media)
-they are in favour of signing of the FTA agreement with the EU, which is quite the opposite what ightist tend to do
-they are in favout of freedom of speech
-anybody hurt by them? (please some evidence that is not Russia today)
It seems they are just being called Nazis by the Russian media because they hold more radical view of ukrainian independece than Kličko or Jacenjuk.

- They did, then they got a decent PR expert.
- They did, their leader "was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction for a speech calling for Ukrainians to fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia"[38] The speech was delivered at the grave-site of a commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army where Tyahnybok praised its struggle against "Moskaly", a derogatory term for either Russians[39] or pan-Russian nationalists;[40][41] Germans; and "Zhydy", an archaic but controversial term for Jews in Ukraine due to it being a slur when used in the Russian language"
- So Reagan was a raging Communist?
- Or so they say
- http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/06/21/te ... 9s-future/

They're being called Neo-Nazis, not Nazis, because that's what they are.

What the fuck does hockey game have to do with Russification? Should Russia sue Canada over Canadification of Russia through hockey?

It has to do that the Russian president and russian government were to into politizing the Olympics and the Ice hockey tournament had to be the main point of the show. It is quite symbolic that Finns beated Russia, consider that this tournament was to show Russias sport glory

I also for example did not saw George Bush being at the ice hockey tournament in Salt lake City in 2002.

So you cannot tell the difference between a hockey event and a political rally as long as an important political figure is present at both. Gotcha.

Aside from thinking that all Russophiles are pro-Putin, ignoring centuries of history prior to Stalin, making false claims, and trying to politicize the Olympics by claiming that Selanne thought how much Russification sucked when he scored... aside from those, yeah, you made no errors. That's like saying "aside from failing, X totally succeeded!"

Please, Putin was the one who started to politize the Olympics.

Not even Zhirnovksy, much less Putin, made a comment about how winning/losing hockey relates to the Winter War. That was you. Worse than Zhirinovsky.

The point is that Ukraine was opressed by Russia for centuries and Russia should let Ukraine to do what it wants.

Sure. No loans, no free gas, do whatever you want Ukraine. I have no issues with that.

[Rabopari]

They already did the first half. Next comes the second half, hopefully.

I remember when I thought Ukraine was giving the bird to the EU. God how naive I was to underestimate the resolve of fascists.

Well said. Keep Ukraine Ukrainian!

[Rabopari]

i had a thread about this but it got locked and the mod told me to come here if i wanted to do it so here goes

Here is some ideas for what will happen to Ukraine in the next coming Days, weeks, months, years etc. Feel free to add your own ideas.

1. Ukraine joins the EU
Yulia Tymoshenko wins the Presidential election, tells Russia to fuck off and leaves the CIS (Commenwealth of independent states), and firstly joins the EU free trade partnership and then will become a full member of the EU. It may even join the Euro currency. It is almost certain the Russian speaking east will not be happy and this will create tensions and perhaps a civil war.

2.Ukraine keeps ties with both the EU and Russia

Tymoshenko wins the election and joins the EU free trade partnership but goes no further. It keeps it current ties with Russia and nothing more.

3. Ukraine gets split in two

I'am uncertain whether this might happen before or after the election (depending who wins, of course). But things go beserk and Ukraine splits in two. The west alining with the US and the EU and maybe becoming a member of NATO. While the east becomes aligned with Russia, creating a "Cold War type scenario."

4. Nothing happens

A pro Russia candidate wins the election but makes a deal with the opposition that nothing will happen. End of story.

5. Civil war

Before the election, things go tits up and civil war starts. Eastern Ukraine vs Western Ukraine. May lead to a split.

So what do you think?

[Shofercia]

So China's going for $11, Germany's going for $11, Ukraine gets it at $9.70, and "The Kievan People" says: the Chinese would never be dumb enough to sign themselves for contracts as rigged as the ones Europeans are currently locked into with Russia

Cool selective quoting from a paywall article there. I can do that to.

Russia says the two sides have agreed on a price formula, but not an actual price.... Gazprom's options won't get any better. Europe, the bedrock of the company's cash flow, looks sluggish, while Russian rivals muscle in on Gazprom's turf. In negotiating a price, global supply is also on China's side. The U.S. shale revolution, and U.S. moves to export gas in the next few years, provide Asia with another supply option. Then there's the more than seven billion cubic feet a day of Australian LNG capacity due to come online by 2017, says Nate Taplin at Gavekal, a research firm.

And since we are now quoting random newspapers analysts, lets hear one from the Chinese side!

The Chinese side is quick to point out it no longer needs the Gazprom gas as much as it did when negotiations began a decade ago. China has now constructed alternate gas pipeline links with central Asia and Myanmar. LNG terminals already import shipped gas and more are in the works, to take gas from Qatar, Australia and even Russia itself.

“Russia is already 10 years too late in entering China’s gas market,” says China-Russia energy expert Feng Yujun of the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations. “Time is on China’s side,” he adds.

Or perhaps.

A new natural gas discovery in southeast Sichuan province - the single biggest ever - could ease domestic shortages in as little as a year and give China a stronger hand in energy negotiations with Russia, according to some experts... "In addition, pricing is always a tough problem for China-Russia natural gas negotiations. The new find may give China a bigger say in the future."

Price remains the last obstacle before the two countries ink a natural gas supply deal after negotiations that have lasted 15 years, said the report.

TL;DR the Chinese are driving a hard bargain and won't just lie back and take it from Russia like the European do. Which I literally would never have guessed!

How was that selective quoting? I was talking about Gas Pricing, and the parts I quoted were... *gasps* talking about gas pricing! You didn't contradict what I said. Your first source says the price is still be negotiated on, whereas my source stated that $11 per mBTU was the likely target. They don't contradict each other. Your second source doesn't dispute my data either, but simply says that Russia should "hurry up!" Your third source admits that China has a shortage, and posits that maybe the new discovery will solve some of those problems. You can take the price, or drive a hard bargain, but the $11 per mBTU remains the price.

Here's another article: http://qz.com/164163/china-and-russia-s ... -gas-deal/

Shifting Chinese away from coal-fired power could be even more momentous in the long run. One fear has been that China might continue to burn just as much coal by simply shifting coal consumption to inland provinces. But there is also the chance that, with the guarantee of piped natural gas at agreed-upon rates, Beijing will cut back on coal overall, with a knock-on reduction in the growth of China’s greenhouse gas emissions. The idea is to ship Russian gas into four dispersed Chinese entry points along the 2,500-mile route of a new pipeline called the Power of Siberia (jpg). The price of the gas—which has been the sticking point the whole time—will be between $10 and $11 per thousand British thermal units, about the same as it costs in Europe, according to the Financial Times. This represents a compromise by China, which had insisted on a lower price close to the $9 per thousand BTUs that it pays for its piped gas from Turkmenistan. JP Morgan believes a deal is inevitable this year. So does Credit Suisse. “Sounds more likely than not this time,” Bernstein’s Oswald Clint told Quartz. As to the timing, who knows. In Clint’s opinion, it “depends what side of the bed Putin gets out of.”

And I'll re quote the key part: The price of the gas—which has been the sticking point the whole time—will be between $10 and $11 per thousand British thermal units, about the same as it costs in Europe, according to the Financial Times.

[Shofercia]

I'm talking about why they will be denied accession to the EU, because this FTA was just a bait.

Indeed, and Russian Special Forces are responsible for Crimean ideas about secession.

Also, in EU-related news, according to google translate of this the head of Foreign Affairs for the European Parliament says he thinks the EU will provide "20 billion euros of support to save Ukraine from default".

Why the fuck didn't they do that in the first place? Could've saved everyone the trouble. Or are there preconditions?

[Wamitoria]

Indeed, and Russian Special Forces are responsible for Crimean ideas about secession.

Also, in EU-related news, according to google translate of this the head of Foreign Affairs for the European Parliament says he thinks the EU will provide "20 billion euros of support to save Ukraine from default".

Why the fuck didn't they do that in the first place? Could've saved everyone the trouble. Or are there preconditions?

I assume they're going to have to pay market price for gas.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

герой донецка и крыма вставай. вам надо драться

[The Kievan People]

OAO Gazprom, Russia’s natural gas exporter, failed to seal a 30-year natural gas supply accord with China today, shifting the window for a deal to President Vladimir Putin’s planned trip to the Asian country in May.

The western financial analysts you quote religiously (who do not actually have any clue what is going in the negotiations) are sure that all is well at the prices Gazprom already sells at. But Gazprom just can't seem to close the deal. Even though it is supposedly price that is the only thing left to be agreed on! What's the hold up?

If price really is the last sticking point either China is willing to pay European prices and Russia demanding an even higher price, or Russia if offering European prices and China is not willing to pay. No matter how you look at it there is significant gap between the analysts breezy predictions and reality. Actually securing the deal is proving much harder than they imply. The two countries would not be discussing it at the head of state level if they could resolve it at a lower one.

[The Kievan People]

http://complex.foreignpolicy.com/posts/ ... _civil_war

"Minister Lebedyev assured the secretary that the Ukrainian armed forces remain the protectors of the Ukrainian people, that their deployment inside the country has been focused on protecting defense facilities and equipment, and that his forces would not use arms against the Ukrainian people," Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby said in a statement late Friday.

This man deserves a medal. Several even.

[Ayreonia]

http://complex.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/02/22/did_a_former_auto_mechanic_keep_ukraine_from_civil_war

"Minister Lebedyev assured the secretary that the Ukrainian armed forces remain the protectors of the Ukrainian people, that their deployment inside the country has been focused on protecting defense facilities and equipment, and that his forces would not use arms against the Ukrainian people," Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby said in a statement late Friday.

This man deserves a medal. Several even.

It's a sad world when someone not using the army against the people deserves a medal.

[Rio Cana]

Found this article from a Ukrainian Business Newspaper. The person writing the article thinks that the more Russian parts of Ukraine will not support the political party of the outgoing Ukrainian President since it was too corrupt. And that that political party has collapsed.

He also says he does not believe the Ukraine will divide. Then new government in power made sure to pass law which prohibits secession. Seems they must think that this could happen since they quickly passed a law against it.

Seems the Ukraine will have more then ever a hard time to get people to invest there. After all, investors like to invest in stable nations and not in nations where a government can be overthrown at any time. Have a feeling if the Ukraine gets anyone to lend them money that they will pay plenty of interests or be required to follow a lot of conditions. The article mentions the World Bank and IMF. The world bank and IMF did wonders in Argentina, Not!

Article - http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11330.html

[Estruia]

Found this article from a Ukrainian Business Newspaper. The person writing the article thinks that the more Russian parts of Ukraine will not support the political party of the outgoing Ukrainian President since it was too corrupt. And that that political party has collapsed.

He also says he does not believe the Ukraine will divide. Then new government in power made sure to pass law which prohibits secession. Seems they must think that this could happen since they quickly passed a law against it.

Seems the Ukraine will have more then ever a hard time to get people to invest there. After all, investors like to invest in stable nations and not in nations where a government can be overthrown at any time. Have a feeling if the Ukraine gets anyone to lend them money that they will pay plenty of interests or be required to follow a lot of conditions. The article mentions the World Bank and IMF. The world bank and IMF did wonders in Argentina, Not!

Article - http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11330.html

What I find most odd about that article, is that the person who wrote it assumes that just because there is a law against secession, it won't happen. If Crimea or the East want independence, they will go outside national law like Lviv did.

[Limborg]

Found this article from a Ukrainian Business Newspaper. The person writing the article thinks that the more Russian parts of Ukraine will not support the political party of the outgoing Ukrainian President since it was too corrupt. And that that political party has collapsed.

He also says he does not believe the Ukraine will divide. Then new government in power made sure to pass law which prohibits secession. Seems they must think that this could happen since they quickly passed a law against it.

Seems the Ukraine will have more then ever a hard time to get people to invest there. After all, investors like to invest in stable nations and not in nations where a government can be overthrown at any time. Have a feeling if the Ukraine gets anyone to lend them money that they will pay plenty of interests or be required to follow a lot of conditions. The article mentions the World Bank and IMF. The world bank and IMF did wonders in Argentina, Not!

Article - http://www.ukrainebusiness.com.ua/news/11330.html

What I find most odd about that article, is that the person who wrote it assumes that just because there is a law against secession, it won't happen. If Crimea or the East want independence, they will go outside national law like Lviv did.

Indeed, found that a bit strange to... If they really want independence then the Ukrainian law won't stop them. And if Ukraine plans to send in soldiers or anything like that then they will get a serious problem with Russia.

[The Fascist American Empire]

Now it's official.

Wikipedia changed the 'President' tab of their country overview to list Oleksandr Turchynov rather than just a "-".

Wikidorkia doesn't make jack shit official. It's a website that anyone can edit.

That's what I've been trying to tell them.

[Estruia]

Wikidorkia doesn't make jack shit official. It's a website that anyone can edit.

That's what I've been trying to tell them.

You are aware that all edits are reviewed by Moderators, right? You can't just edit what you please without verification.

[Shofercia]

Why the fuck didn't they do that in the first place? Could've saved everyone the trouble. Or are there preconditions?

I assume they're going to have to pay market price for gas.

Bummer!

OAO Gazprom, Russia’s natural gas exporter, failed to seal a 30-year natural gas supply accord with China today, shifting the window for a deal to President Vladimir Putin’s planned trip to the Asian country in May.

The western financial analysts you quote religiously (who do not actually have any clue what is going in the negotiations) are sure that all is well at the prices Gazprom already sells at. But Gazprom just can't seem to close the deal. Even though it is supposedly price that is the only thing left to be agreed on! What's the hold up?

If price really is the last sticking point either China is willing to pay European prices and Russia demanding an even higher price, or Russia if offering European prices and China is not willing to pay. No matter how you look at it there is significant gap between the analysts breezy predictions and reality. Actually securing the deal is proving much harder than they imply. The two countries would not be discussing it at the head of state level if they could resolve it at a lower one.

Fact is, you don't know whether China is willing to pay European prices or not. You don't know whether Russia is willing to accept European prices from China, or not. You don't know that. And therein lies the problem, as I've stated that Russia can probably sell at European prices, minus transit fees, to China. Thus you claiming that it could be one of the options is not actually a rebuttal of my post. You failed to comprehend that several times now, but you persist.

Additionally, I find it rather hilarious how you are implying that Europe is too inept to deal with GazProm, while at the same time telling Ukraine to buzz off from Russia and join Europe the Enlightened. When your arguments are drawn together, they look like this: "Ukraine should totally cut all ties with Russia to avoid giving Russia preferential treatment and join the EU, which gives Russia preferential treatment!"

That's what I've been trying to tell them.

You are aware that all edits are reviewed by Moderators, right? You can't just edit what you please without verification.

Of course sometimes said verification can take up to five years... http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/06/hoax- ... ive-years/

[Estruia]

Of course sometimes said verification can take up to five years... http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/06/hoax- ... ive-years/

That's unfortunate. However, you must compare apples to apples in this scenario. An article about a fake war in India in the 17th century cannot be compared to the Ukrainian national article. One is actively moderated, while the other is not.

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

Of course sometimes said verification can take up to five years... http://dailycaller.com/2013/01/06/hoax- ... ive-years/

That's unfortunate. However, you must compare apples to apples in this scenario. An article about a fake war in India in the 17th century cannot be compared to the Ukrainian national article. One is actively moderated, while the other is not.

To be fair, the other day I looked up the article for Vitali Zacharchenko and it legit called him a vampire. sooo, wikipedia is hardly flawless.

[Estruia]

That's unfortunate. However, you must compare apples to apples in this scenario. An article about a fake war in India in the 17th century cannot be compared to the Ukrainian national article. One is actively moderated, while the other is not.

To be fair, the other day I looked up the article for Vitali Zacharchenko and it legit called him a vampire. sooo, wikipedia is hardly flawless.

To be fair, no one here is trying to make that claim.