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No, you're not a feminist

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Is feminism about supporting women?

Yes
76
32%
No
109
46%
Other
54
23%
 
Total votes : 239

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Forsher
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No, you're not a feminist

Postby Forsher » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:19 pm

I'm not sure how aware people are of Lorde but basically she's a singer who is in the news every other day here (although, yesterday, there was an article as well so sometimes it's more common than this) for some comment or other she has made. As far as I know, she's basically a one hit wonder at this point. Selena Gomez has been around for longer and was the subject (or, rather, one of her songs was the subject of) a Lorde remark.

What Lorde said was that the subject matter of a Gomez song portrayed women negatively.

"A song came out recently by a big pop star (Selena) and the lyrical thing is 'when you're ready come and get it, I'll be sitting right here just waiting' and I just find that so pathetic and I don't think girls should be listening to that kind of thing and I don't think that is normal or healthy."


This would not be out of place on NSG. Lorde also said that they considers herself a feminist (and, having asked a few girls a year or so older than her, it's not actually that common a self-description but the sample size is less than five).

Gomez disagrees and the tone of her reply is, essentially, the reason for the title.

"That's not feminism. [Lorde is] not supporting other women."


This is obviously referring to Lorde's remarks (which also apply to pop music more generally as well). Gomez says she possibly won't continue to cover Royals (Lorde's song, which, to my knowledge, is about the same issue that pop has as it exists for hip hop). Source.

That's the context of this discussion. The question to consider being: "Is Gomez correct? Is feminism about supporting women?"

Personally, I kind of agree but I disagree that Gomez's remarks apply in this case. Lorde is trying to support (other) women by identifying and seeking to change bad ideas/practices that negatively impact on women. This would, of course, be the sort of ideas that songs like Gomez's perpetuate (assuming Lorde is right in her interpretation... I've only ever heard snippets of it in ads*). Gomez is confusing, "I'm a woman and I should be supported by feminism" with "Feminism supports women". That is to say, Gomez is too close and, as a result, is being too narrow in focus.

*Although that's actually irrelevant, whether or not Lorde is right, I believe that she is actively doing what she thinks is best for women.
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The Time Alliance
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Postby The Time Alliance » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:24 pm

Man some Top 20 Countdown MTV stuff going down.

Obviously I support Lorde.

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Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro
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Postby Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:33 pm

Feminism is about being fair to women when they want to opt in or out something males are societally and institutionally allowed to, but they are not.

This includes sexualization and sexual objectification of the bodies of other women, yes. You can criticize it as a sex-negative person and as someone who wants to see less objectification or want a society where all sexes/genders are objectified equally by all sexes/genders (meaning women are allowed to tease men publicly, as long as everybody is also allowed to tease everybody else), but you can't criticize it as a feminist.

There is nothing inherently wrong about Selena describing heterosexual relationships and sexuality in a way you don't like. Go burn soutiens and say you'd a trillion times rather be lesbian than a trophy, by all means, but she is in her right to write songs like this, if men are also allowed to.
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Estado Paulista
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Postby Estado Paulista » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:35 pm

Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:Feminism is about being fair to women when they want to opt in or out something males are societally and institutionally allowed to, but they are not.

This includes sexualization and sexual objectification of the bodies of other women, yes. You can criticize it as a sex-negative person and as someone who wants to see less objectification or want a society where all sexes/genders are objectified equally by all sexes/genders (meaning women are allowed to tease men publicly, as long as everybody is also allowed to tease everybody else), but you can't criticize it as a feminist.

There is nothing inherently wrong about Selena describing heterosexual relationships and sexuality in a way you don't like. Go burn soutiens and say you'd a trillion times rather be lesbian than a trophy, by all means, but she is in her right to write songs like this, if men are also allowed to.


This.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:37 pm

'when you're ready come and get it, I'll be sitting right here just waiting'


Sounds like she just wants a booty call, not some guy to come over to her house and rape her.
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Verdum
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Postby Verdum » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:38 pm

Yes. yes it is.
RADICAL Feminism is another thing. That's some scary shit right durr.

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Postby Page » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:40 pm

Didn't this shit already happen with Sinead O'Connor's self-righteous criticism of Miley Cyrus? It's like the whole universe is just totally cyclical.
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Christmahanikwanzikah
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Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:43 pm

Forsher wrote:As far as I know, she's basically a one hit wonder at this point. Selena Gomez has been around for longer and was the subject (or, rather, one of her songs was the subject of) a Lorde remark.


As far as I know, Selena Gomez is a two-bit singer that's been propped up by Nickelodeon.

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Christmahanikwanzikah
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Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:44 pm

If we're taking the literal interpretation of feminism from Selena Gomez, feminism supports Ann Coulter.

So, um, yeah.

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Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro
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Postby Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:44 pm

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:
Forsher wrote:As far as I know, she's basically a one hit wonder at this point. Selena Gomez has been around for longer and was the subject (or, rather, one of her songs was the subject of) a Lorde remark.

As far as I know, Selena Gomez is a two-bit singer that's been propped up by Nickelodeon.

It's the best thing that came from there and/or Disney. I hate all others (Cyrus, Lovato, etc.), but from what I've been exposed to, her work is quite tolerable.
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Page
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Postby Page » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:46 pm

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:If we're taking the literal interpretation of feminism from Selena Gomez, feminism supports Ann Coulter.

So, um, yeah.


Selena Gomez is saying "come and get it", and let's be honest, no one is coming to get Ann Coulter. Not even Rush Limbaugh high on oxy.
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Christmahanikwanzikah
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Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:47 pm

Page wrote:
Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:If we're taking the literal interpretation of feminism from Selena Gomez, feminism supports Ann Coulter.

So, um, yeah.


Selena Gomez is saying "come and get it", and let's be honest, no one is coming to get Ann Coulter. Not even Rush Limbaugh high on oxy.


:lol2:

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The Tundra
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Postby The Tundra » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:49 pm

Lorde has alot of really good songs

either way, Ghomz should go suck a dick. she is whats wrong with feminism, and why i'm an Equalist.
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SaintB
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Postby SaintB » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:49 pm

Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro wrote:Feminism is about being fair to women when they want to opt in or out something males are societally and institutionally allowed to, but they are not.

This includes sexualization and sexual objectification of the bodies of other women, yes. You can criticize it as a sex-negative person and as someone who wants to see less objectification or want a society where all sexes/genders are objectified equally by all sexes/genders (meaning women are allowed to tease men publicly, as long as everybody is also allowed to tease everybody else), but you can't criticize it as a feminist.

There is nothing inherently wrong about Selena describing heterosexual relationships and sexuality in a way you don't like. Go burn soutiens and say you'd a trillion times rather be lesbian than a trophy, by all means, but she is in her right to write songs like this, if men are also allowed to.

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Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro
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Postby Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:50 pm

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:If we're taking the literal interpretation of feminism from Selena Gomez, feminism supports Ann Coulter.

So, um, yeah.

I bet she could do a big intellectualized response if she had the time and the concentration to. But yeah, a feminist shouldn't support men being the only ones sexualizing women in the background of straight relationships, even if it means further undermining the way we see women, because more important than what the people like, is to have your own voice and your own space.

Selena has the right to sing whatever she wants to, and I agree with her, because feminists should support what individual women want, rather than what their culture wants them to, especially if it is for sexist-essentialist reasons. Seeing how we don't want to restrict how men are allowed to sexualize themselves and others, this seems indeed like hypocrisy. This isn't even an issue that undermines the human rights, dignity and equal citizen status of women.

I know she won't read me, but my message would be: You go, girl! Sing about what you want! I might not completely like you or your art, but you are in your right!
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Test: Seemingly, libertarian communism was renamed "social democracy"
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Born 12/94. Weird in all senses starting at 07/2000. NSG's resident euro-carioca bara-fudanshi useless lazy perv. Agnostic atheist (not anti-religious), bi-affective homosexual/demiheterosexual (and bi-curious i.e. chronologically 95% bisexual-ish but 5% true bi), slightly more masculine of both tad neutral and tad ambiguous gender (human-/oneself-identified genderqueer; he, xe or ou, your preference), naturist, "worker" class, mildly hipster/japanophile, etc.

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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:53 pm

The primary message Feminism tries to give both men and women is "Be whoever the fuck you want to be, just don't violate others."

So basically, Lorde's comment was against that message. Women have every right to play a passive sexual role if that's what tickles their fancy, just like men have the same right, and both also have the right to be the one in control (again, if that tickles their fancy).
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:54 pm

So street cred trash talk is suddenly a valid discussion of feminism?
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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:55 pm

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:If we're taking the literal interpretation of feminism from Selena Gomez, feminism supports Ann Coulter.

So, um, yeah.

If I take this seriously, I can make the point that no one's political ideology changes the fact that they are still human and deserve the same rights.

Honestly, the culture of hate NSG has for Ann Coulter is obnoxious. It's enough that most philosophers consider her a mere writer. Don't dehumanize her for it.
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The Tundra
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Postby The Tundra » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:56 pm

Condunum wrote:The primary message Feminism tries to give both men and women is "Be whoever the fuck you want to be, just don't violate others."

So basically, Lorde's comment was against that message. Women have every right to play a passive sexual role if that's what tickles their fancy, just like men have the same right, and both also have the right to be the one in control (again, if that tickles their fancy).

i think you got Lorde and Ghomz mixed up.
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Stuff it

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Anal probe was shitty
Implements inserted for a crap reason
Man seeking a rears for police brutality
Man sues asses for penetrating his own
Police demand to spread went too far
Long arm of law goes inside
Lesson: Only stick it up there with permission.


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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:57 pm

The Tundra wrote:
Condunum wrote:The primary message Feminism tries to give both men and women is "Be whoever the fuck you want to be, just don't violate others."

So basically, Lorde's comment was against that message. Women have every right to play a passive sexual role if that's what tickles their fancy, just like men have the same right, and both also have the right to be the one in control (again, if that tickles their fancy).

i think you got Lorde and Ghomz mixed up.

No I didn't. Gomez made a sexual song. That's her right. Lorde bashed her for it. That's bad.
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Postby Page » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:58 pm

Lorde is like, 17, so I'll cut her a break. What 17 year old doesn't have a poorly thought out, arrogant ideology?
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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:59 pm

Page wrote:Lorde is like, 17, so I'll cut her a break. What 17 year old doesn't have a poorly thought out, arrogant ideology?

When I was 17, my ideology was perfect. There was no flaw. I was perfect. I am perfect. Feed my vanity.
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Page
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Postby Page » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:01 pm

Condunum wrote:
Page wrote:Lorde is like, 17, so I'll cut her a break. What 17 year old doesn't have a poorly thought out, arrogant ideology?

When I was 17, my ideology was perfect. There was no flaw. I was perfect. I am perfect. Feed my vanity.


When I was 17 I was trying to incite a Marxist revolution. Now I'm just a moderate and practical socialist type.
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Gauthier
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Postby Gauthier » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:01 pm

Like I said before, this just comes off as more typical examples of street cred trash talk that singers apparently have aimed at each other in the business. Anyone remember Christina Aguillera's trash talk fits, or Eminem making lyrics about people he wanted to shit on? Same thing.
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Postby Page » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:02 pm

Gauthier wrote:Eminem making lyrics about people he wanted to shit on? Same thing.


This never stopped, that's like all Eminem does. Except for one song where he says he almost dissed Lil Wayne but was glad he didn't.
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