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Federal Prosecutors Cite Warrantless Wiretaps as Evidence

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Lemanrussland
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Federal Prosecutors Cite Warrantless Wiretaps as Evidence

Postby Lemanrussland » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:26 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/us/fe ... .html?_r=0

WASHINGTON — The Justice Department for the first time has notified a criminal defendant that evidence being used against him came from a warrantless wiretap, a move that is expected to set up a Supreme Court test of whether such eavesdropping is constitutional.

Prosecutors filed such a notice late Friday in the case of Jamshid Muhtorov, who was charged in Colorado in January 2012 with providing material support to the Islamic Jihad Union, a designated terrorist organization based in Uzbekistan.

Mr. Muhtorov is accused of planning to travel abroad to join the militants and has pleaded not guilty. A criminal complaint against him showed that much of the government’s case was based on e-mails and phone calls intercepted under a 2008 surveillance law.

The government’s notice allows Mr. Muhtorov’s lawyer to ask a court to suppress the evidence by arguing that it derived from unconstitutional surveillance, setting in motion judicial review of the eavesdropping.

The New York Times reported on Oct. 17 that the decision by prosecutors to notify a defendant about the wiretapping followed a legal policy debate inside the Justice Department.

The debate began in June when Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr. discovered that the department’s National Security Division did not notify criminal defendants when eavesdropping without a warrant was an early link in an investigative chain that led to evidence used in court. As a result, none of the defendants knew that they had the right to challenge the warrantless wiretapping law.

The practice contradicted what Mr. Verrilli had told the Supreme Court last year in a case challenging the law, the FISA Amendments Act of 2008. Legalizing a form of the Bush administration’s program of warrantless surveillance, the law authorized the government to wiretap Americans’ e-mails and phone calls without an individual court order and on domestic soil so long as the surveillance is “targeted” at a foreigner abroad.

A group of plaintiffs led by Amnesty International had challenged the law as unconstitutional. But Mr. Verrilli last year urged the Supreme Court to dismiss the case because those plaintiffs could not prove that they had been wiretapped. In making that argument, he said a defendant who faced evidence derived from the law would have proper legal standing and would be notified, so dismissing the lawsuit by Amnesty International would not close the door to judicial review of the 2008 law. The court accepted that logic, voting 5-to-4 to dismiss the case.

In a statement, Patrick Toomey, staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union, which had represented Amnesty International and the other plaintiffs, hailed the move but criticized the Justice Department’s prior practice.

“We welcome the government’s belated recognition that it must give notice to criminal defendants who it has monitored under the most sweeping surveillance law ever passed by Congress,” Mr. Toomey said. “By withholding notice, the government has avoided judicial review of its dragnet warrantless wiretapping program for five years.”

The Justice Department change traces back to June, when The Times reported that prosecutors in Fort Lauderdale and Chicago had told plaintiffs they did not need to say whether evidence in their cases derived from warrantless wiretapping, in conflict with what the Justice Department had told the Supreme Court.

After reading the article, Mr. Verrilli sought an explanation from the National Security Division, whose lawyers had vetted his briefs and helped him practice for his arguments, according to officials with knowledge of the internal deliberations. It was only then that he learned of the division’s practice of narrowly interpreting its need to notify defendants of evidence “derived from” warrantless wiretapping.

There ensued a wider debate throughout June and July, the officials said. National security prosecutors raised operational concerns: disclosing more to defendants could tip off a foreign target that his communications were being monitored, so intelligence officials might become reluctant to share crucial information that might create problems in a later trial.

Mr. Verrilli was said to have argued that there was no legal basis to conceal from defendants that the evidence derived from legally untested surveillance, preventing them from knowing they had an opportunity to challenge it. Ultimately, his view prevailed and the National Security Division changed its practice going forward, leading to the new filing on Friday in Mr. Muhtorov’s case.

Still, it remains unclear how many other cases — including closed matters in which convicts are already service prison sentences — involved evidence derived from warrantless wiretapping in which the National Security Division did not provide full notice to defendants, nor whether the department will belatedly notify them. Such a notice could lead to efforts to reopen those cases.


This is probably going to be a really big deal, as it will most likely be challenged and then eventually sent up to the Supreme Court, whose ruling will really define the future of privacy rights in the United States.

What do you guys think about this case, and the possible future SCOTUS case? I'm personally putting my hopes on progressive 4th amendment jurisprudence.

I'm expecting the liberal justices (Kagan, Ginsburg, Breyer, and Sotomayor) to vote together as a bloc to challenge the constitutionality of warrantless wiretaps, as they did in CLAPPER, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, ET AL. v. AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL USA ET AL.

Alito is the most likely of the conservative justices to flip with the Liberals in my view, because he supports a mosaic theory of the 4th amendment (http://www.volokh.com/2012/01/23/whats- ... ter-jones/), though his majority decision in Clapper v. Amnesty left a bad taste in my mouth (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12 ... 5_ihdj.pdf). Roberts and Kennedy are somewhat unreliable on privacy issues (particularly Kennedy), though they have a chance of flipping. Scalia and Thomas are basically lost causes.

Cause for hope goes exponentially up if one of the conservative justices retires and is replaced by a young liberal justice attuned to technology much as Kagan is. Nevertheless, the votes might be there with the current set of justices, and getting theses issues into the public spotlight is better than having them isolated in secret courts or not discussed at all.

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Huangdi Union
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Postby Huangdi Union » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:47 pm

I might have some sympathy for the feds if they did something other than process bogus islamo-terrorist cases.

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Postby Libertarian California » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:50 pm

I think I just saw the Bill of Rights go down a storm drain.
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:56 pm

They're not even pretending to care about the bill of rights anymore.
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Postby Lemanrussland » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:57 pm

Also, for those who don't want to read the whole story, essentially the government must now give notice to criminal defendants when evidence gathered by warrantless wiretaps is used.

Before this, they could use the evidence without saying it was gathered in that way, which basically meant that none of the defendants knew that they had the right to challenge the warrantless wiretapping law (which prevented judicial review of the warrantless surveillance program). Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr. found out about this in June, and challenged it because there was no legal basis for this practice. The National Security Division people tried to fight it, but Verrilli's view eventually prevailed.

So now, the warrantless wiretaps are more open to judicial review. Which is a good thing.

EDIT: Also, it should be said that the only real reason the Clapper v. Amnesty was dismissed was because the plaintiffs couldn't prove that they were personally wiretapped. With this new policy in place, that argument doesn't fly anymore.
Last edited by Lemanrussland on Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Postby Libertarian California » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:05 pm

I get the feeling that Sotomayor isn't going to oppose this, Lemanrussland.
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:37 pm

So let me get this straight. This Mr. Muhtorov is now afforded the opportunity to try to have evidence against him thrown out on constitutional grounds, if successful this would obviously be a big deal, and based on this we conclude that the Bill of Rights is down the shitter and the US is basically a police state, game over, man, game over?
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Lemanrussland
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Postby Lemanrussland » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:38 pm

Libertarian California wrote:I get the feeling that Sotomayor isn't going to oppose this, Lemanrussland.

Why not? I feel her privacy rights record is fairly solid.

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Postby The Serbian Empire » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:40 pm

Libertarian California wrote:I think I just saw the Bill of Rights go down a storm drain.

It's gone, I think I might attempt to defect the US soon akin to those Cubans who flee Cuba on rafts.
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Postby Libertarian California » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:42 pm

Lemanrussland wrote:
Libertarian California wrote:I get the feeling that Sotomayor isn't going to oppose this, Lemanrussland.

Why not? I feel her privacy rights record is fairly solid.


Yes, but she was nominated by Barack Obama, and might be unwilling to make a move against his cabinet.
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Postby Libertarian California » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:42 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Libertarian California wrote:I think I just saw the Bill of Rights go down a storm drain.

It's gone, I think I might attempt to defect the US soon akin to those Cubans who flee Cuba on rafts.


And where do you think you're going?
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:44 pm

Libertarian California wrote:
The Serbian Empire wrote:It's gone, I think I might attempt to defect the US soon akin to those Cubans who flee Cuba on rafts.


And where do you think you're going?

Maybe Bolivia or Uruguay.
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Postby Lemanrussland » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:45 pm

Ifreann wrote:So let me get this straight. This Mr. Muhtorov is now afforded the opportunity to try to have evidence against him thrown out on constitutional grounds, if successful this would obviously be a big deal, and based on this we conclude that the Bill of Rights is down the shitter and the US is basically a police state, game over, man, game over?

No. It would be pretty disastrous if SCOTUS did not rule favorably on this case. That possibility exists. However, this opens the opportunity for a favorable ruling, which I see as being somewhat likely under current conditions. It is going to be an enormously important case regardless.
Last edited by Lemanrussland on Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby United Dependencies » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:47 pm

Ifreann wrote:So let me get this straight. This Mr. Muhtorov is now afforded the opportunity to try to have evidence against him thrown out on constitutional grounds, if successful this would obviously be a big deal, and based on this we conclude that the Bill of Rights is down the shitter and the US is basically a police state, game over, man, game over?

This seems to be the case.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:47 pm

I'm not ok with using warrantless wiretaps in an actual trial (The usual reasons.)

So If I were the Judge i'd shoot this down and say they can't use the evidence.

HOWEVER.

If they came to me and said "We need a warrant."


and I said
"What's your reason for needing one?"

And they used illegally obtained footage (A warrantless wiretap) as their evidence to ASK FOR A WARRANT, I'd be ok with warranting full time surveillance of the suspect.

I can't quite explain why I consider these things different.
Anyone who agrees or understands willing to expand on my post? (I'm pretty uh.......drunk)
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Libertarian California » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:51 pm

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Libertarian California wrote:
And where do you think you're going?

Maybe Bolivia or Uruguay.


Pick Uruguay.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:53 pm

Ifreann wrote:So let me get this straight. This Mr. Muhtorov is now afforded the opportunity to try to have evidence against him thrown out on constitutional grounds, if successful this would obviously be a big deal, and based on this we conclude that the Bill of Rights is down the shitter and the US is basically a police state, game over, man, game over?


My friend just proposed that we allow warrantless surveillance to be acceptable evidence, but ONLY For crimes that carry a MINIMUM sentence of 10 years.
That...that actually seems ok.

"We were warrantless wiretapping and you murdered a dude. It's fine."
"We were warrantless wiretapping and you burgled a place, minimum 8 years, we can't use this evidence."
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Postby Franklin Delano Bluth » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:56 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:They're not even pretending to care about the bill of rights anymore.


If even something as dully procedural as the issue of standing (in a case where the person bringing the suit could not even prove he had been targeted, no less!) was so split, that suggests to me there's pretty strong antipathy towards the law on the High Court.

I mean, as much as I hate it I (as an admitted layman) have to agree with the legal position that it's hard to have standing to challenge the law when you can't even prove that you were affected by it. So if a number of the Supremes were willing to let the challenge go forward even despite an issue seemingly that blatant, that bodes well, I think.
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Postby Risottia » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:56 pm

Lemanrussland wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/us/federal-prosecutors-in-a-policy-shift-cite-warrantless-wiretaps-as-evidence.html?_r=0

WASHINGTON — The Justice Department for the first time has notified a criminal defendant that evidence being used against him came from a warrantless wiretap, a move that is expected to set up a Supreme Court test of whether such eavesdropping is constitutional.


Seems pretty straightforward that such data cannot be used as evidence in a trial as it was obtained illegally, AND that the defendant's civil rights have been violated.
I think the defendant will have no trouble in winning a suit against the prosecution.
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Postby Franklin Delano Bluth » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:59 pm

Risottia wrote:
Lemanrussland wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/27/us/federal-prosecutors-in-a-policy-shift-cite-warrantless-wiretaps-as-evidence.html?_r=0



Seems pretty straightforward that such data cannot be used as evidence in a trial as it was obtained illegally


Well, I mean, there's a law that specifically allows it, so it's not really that straightforward at all; the courts are now in a position to decide whether that law is Constitutional or not.

What sets this case apart is that the evidence gained from the wiretap is being used in a criminal prosecution, which means that the prosecutors have to inform the defendant of all the evidence they plan to use against him and how they got it. In prior cases, the information from the wiretaps was apparently never used in a criminal prosecution--and since these wiretaps are pretty much by definition secret, the only way to prove you were targeted by them (and thus to have standing to challenge the wiretap authority in court) is to have the government tell you. But now that we have a case where someone has been affirmatively told that yes, he was in fact targeted by these warrantless wiretaps, he has the ability to challenge the Constitutionality of the warrantless wiretap program altogether.
Last edited by Franklin Delano Bluth on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:02 pm

Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:
Regnum Dominae wrote:They're not even pretending to care about the bill of rights anymore.


If even something as dully procedural as the issue of standing (in a case where the person bringing the suit could not even prove he had been targeted, no less!) was so split, that suggests to me there's pretty strong antipathy towards the law on the High Court.

I mean, as much as I hate it I (as an admitted layman) have to agree with the legal position that it's hard to have standing to challenge the law when you can't even prove that you were affected by it. So if a number of the Supremes were willing to let the challenge go forward even despite an issue seemingly that blatant, that bodes well, I think.

I could not possibly be more in favour of referring to SCOTUS Justices as Supremes.
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Postby Risottia » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:04 pm

Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:
Risottia wrote:
Seems pretty straightforward that such data cannot be used as evidence in a trial as it was obtained illegally


Well, I mean, there's a law that specifically allows it, so it's not really that straightforward at all; the courts are now in a position to decide whether that law is Constitutional or not.


Uhm.
Then the law is quite evidently not constitutional. You know, between fair trial, warrants and privacy...
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Postby Franklin Delano Bluth » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:05 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Franklin Delano Bluth wrote:
If even something as dully procedural as the issue of standing (in a case where the person bringing the suit could not even prove he had been targeted, no less!) was so split, that suggests to me there's pretty strong antipathy towards the law on the High Court.

I mean, as much as I hate it I (as an admitted layman) have to agree with the legal position that it's hard to have standing to challenge the law when you can't even prove that you were affected by it. So if a number of the Supremes were willing to let the challenge go forward even despite an issue seemingly that blatant, that bodes well, I think.

I could not possibly be more in favour of referring to SCOTUS Justices as Supremes.


Diana agrees.
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Postby Lemanrussland » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:05 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Ifreann wrote:So let me get this straight. This Mr. Muhtorov is now afforded the opportunity to try to have evidence against him thrown out on constitutional grounds, if successful this would obviously be a big deal, and based on this we conclude that the Bill of Rights is down the shitter and the US is basically a police state, game over, man, game over?


My friend just proposed that we allow warrantless surveillance to be acceptable evidence, but ONLY For crimes that carry a MINIMUM sentence of 10 years.
That...that actually seems ok.

"We were warrantless wiretapping and you murdered a dude. It's fine."
"We were warrantless wiretapping and you burgled a place, minimum 8 years, we can't use this evidence."

Warrantless wiretaps shouldn't be allowed to occur at all, let alone be used as evidence.

The big danger of allowing warrantless wiretaps to take place comes from dragnet surveillance. When the government is allowed to conduct that kind of surveillance (either directly or through third-parties), it creates a situation where people's personal lives can be trolled through and data mined retroactively. The 10 year limitation could be weakened to 5, and then to nothing, and all of the data collected before would be able to be used in criminal cases.

Government shouldn't be trusted with that much power, the potential for abuse is too great, and will only continue growing as more and more personal data is passed over computer networks. It's more important now than ever that the limitations on the search powers of government have teeth.
Last edited by Lemanrussland on Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Ifreann » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:07 pm

Lemanrussland wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
My friend just proposed that we allow warrantless surveillance to be acceptable evidence, but ONLY For crimes that carry a MINIMUM sentence of 10 years.
That...that actually seems ok.

"We were warrantless wiretapping and you murdered a dude. It's fine."
"We were warrantless wiretapping and you burgled a place, minimum 8 years, we can't use this evidence."

Warrantless wiretaps shouldn't be allowed to occur at all, let alone be used as evidence.

The big danger of allowing warrantless wiretaps to take place comes from dragnet surveillance. When the government is allowed to conduct that kind of surveillance (either directly or through third-parties), it creates a situation where people's personal lives can be trolled through and data mined retroactively. The "10 year" limitation could be weakened to 5, and then to nothing, and all of the data collected before would be able to be used in criminal cases.

Government shouldn't be trusted with that much power, the potential for abuse is too great, and will only continue growing as more and more personal data is passed over computer networks. It's more important now than ever that the limitations on the search powers of government have teeth.

*trawled through.
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