US Government Shutdown? Not any more!

[The New World Oceania]

How would that be worse, why the heck do we need to employee non-essential personel seriously, what is the point? Sure The Smithsonian and National Zoo are great and all but were coming up on the 20 trillion market in what like a year (or did we hit it already?) in terms of the federal debt, I mean we just keep digging a bigger hole and what to pay some intern to sit around all day and make sure the webcam feed of the pandas is working? Seriously, that's what we are borrowing trillions of dollars in part to fund?

Better than paying someone to go shoot brown people.

At least the panda webcam provides value to the public.

I don't know what context this is in but it appears you are advocating pandas and the execution of black people equally.

[Kalgeron]

If Obama isn't willing to negotiate on anything then shut the whole thing down. Rather than broker compromises and do what the American people voted him into office to do he has acted like a 5 year old and declared that he doesn't wanna play anymore if he doesn't get everything 100% his way. 2016 is getting closer and his two terms are up. Then we can put the 8 years of I refuse to negotiate (his job) behind us.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

This is not the Republicans fault, it is the fault of both parties and it isn't the end of the world. The shutdown was because of a standoff between Republicans AND Democrats. It is a temporary shut down which shuts down all non essential US government services. I don't think it is a good thing but I shouldn't be blamed on just the Republicans because people don't like it.

If Obama isn't willing to negotiate on anything then shut the whole thing down. Rather than broker compromises and do what the American people voted him into office to do he has acted like a 5 year old and declared that he doesn't wanna play anymore if he doesn't get everything 100% his way. 2016 is getting closer and his two terms are up. Then we can put the 8 years of I refuse to negotiate (his job) behind us.

No. This is not the fault of Obama, nor is it the fault of both the Republicans and the Democrats.

The Democrats proposed a bill. It was passed by both houses of Congress, and signed into law. The law was challenged on Constitutional grounds, and was upheld by the highest court in the land. The GOP then ran a candidate for President who promised to repeal the law. He lost by a significant margin. They have attempted nearly fifty repeals of the law. All of them failed. Now the Republicans are playing havoc with people's lives by shutting down the government until this bill that has passed through every single facet of our constitutional representative democracy's system of checks and balances is modified somehow? No. There is nothing to negotiate. They had several opportunities to repeal, overhaul, or otherwise get rid of the AHCA, and they failed at all of them. This isn't about two sides refusing to compromise. This is about one side refusing to accept the consequences of failure on their part.

[Llamalandia]

How would that be worse, why the heck do we need to employee non-essential personel seriously, what is the point? Sure The Smithsonian and National Zoo are great and all but were coming up on the 20 trillion market in what like a year (or did we hit it already?) in terms of the federal debt, I mean we just keep digging a bigger hole and what to pay some intern to sit around all day and make sure the webcam feed of the pandas is working? Seriously, that's what we are borrowing trillions of dollars in part to fund?

I'm sure they don't have a person who's only job is to ensure that "the panda camera feed is working". That would be a waste of labor. They probably have their IT personnel deal with it.

As for your point about "why don't we cut spending to the bone when we're in the red", that doesn't make any sense from an economic perspective, and doesn't really take into the account *why* we're running large deficits (hint: It has to do with the performance of the economy, not with a structural imbalance or overspending).

If any of these politicians cared about fixing our fiscal issues, they would focus on making the economic recovery as prompt and painless as possible, and on fixing our entitlement system, instead of shutting the government down over their petty little political tit-for-tat fights.

Congress is doing a pathetic job, this mishap just the latest highlight of their performance.

Okey dokey then when the "recession ends" even though were supposed to already be recovering at what point in time do we pay off the federal debt? What year or how about what decade will tax receipts exceed govt expenditures in whasington? IF you can answer those questions sastisfactorily then I will admit you are right and quite likely bow down before you. And its' not that im even entirely opposed to countercyclical keynsianism either, sure it's fine for govt to spend money inthe "bad tiems" the problem is we do in fact have structural problems becasue the govt also spends money at nearly the same rate even when the economy is booming, even under CLinton when he briefly balanced the budget. It's fine to save a surplus in the good times to spend in the bad, but all we ever do is spend and never save in govt adn that doesn't work. You can't get to balance that way. I'm also not blaming dems alone though they certianly spend more egregiously then republicans (though after bush it's hard to tell which is worse almost) but Idon't want either party spending like this unless they got the money in the bank to back it up and we don't we have 20 trillion in debt instead.

[Greed and Death]

This is not the Republicans fault, it is the fault of both parties and it isn't the end of the world. The shutdown was because of a standoff between Republicans AND Democrats. It is a temporary shut down which shuts down all non essential US government services. I don't think it is a good thing but I shouldn't be blamed on just the Republicans because people don't like it.

Nope. It is the Republican's fault, mostly. They're the ones making demands (delay ACA for another year, so we can do this stupid shit again next year!) and saying "we won't authorize funding if you don't bend over and comply". This entire situation was created and is being sustained by them.

Hey now the defense authorization for FY 2010 had a hate crimes bill attached to it by the DNC.

Crying foul over the normal way of doing things is a bit hypocritical. Funny the DNC goes on to talk about clean bills after using all the tricks in the book. The ACA itself was originally a house bill that was gutted and rewritten. It is all fine and dandy say clean bills clean bills. But if you had such a requirement gays and lesbians would have never gained protection under the federal hate crime's statute, and the aca would not have been passed because by the time the house passed the bill and the senate got to voting on the bill senator Brown would have been elected.

[Lemanrussland]

If Obama isn't willing to negotiate on anything then shut the whole thing down. Rather than broker compromises and do what the American people voted him into office to do he has acted like a 5 year old and declared that he doesn't wanna play anymore if he doesn't get everything 100% his way. 2016 is getting closer and his two terms are up. Then we can put the 8 years of I refuse to negotiate (his job) behind us.

Refusing to "make a deal" with someone who's using a government shutdown as a threat is hardly a refusal to compromise or negotiate. If the GOP wanted real compromise, they'd authorize the spending and come to the negotiating table on equal terms. It's funny to me that the GOP can say "give us our carrot or we're going to shut down the government", and then is able to pin that on the President (not even on the Senate Democrats, on the President himself, for whatever reason), like it's his fault they're acting like spoiled children.

[Llamalandia]

This is not the Republicans fault, it is the fault of both parties and it isn't the end of the world. The shutdown was because of a standoff between Republicans AND Democrats. It is a temporary shut down which shuts down all non essential US government services. I don't think it is a good thing but I shouldn't be blamed on just the Republicans because people don't like it.

No. This is not the fault of both the Republicans and the Democrats.

The Democrats proposed a bill. It was passed by both houses of Congress, and signed into law. The law was challenged on Constitutional grounds, and was upheld by the highest court in the land. The GOP then ran a candidate for President who promised to repeal the law. He lost by a significant margin. They have attempted nearly fifty repeals of the law. All of them failed. Now the Republicans are playing havoc with people's lives by shutting down the government until this bill that has passed through every single facet of our constitutional representative democracy's system of checks and balances is modified somehow? No. There is nothing to negotiate. They had several opportunities to repeal, overhaul, or otherwise get rid of the AHCA, and they failed at all of them. This isn't about two sides refusing to compromise. This is about one side refusing to accept the consequences of failure on their part.

Lots of laws are passed but never get funded, no past congress can bind a future one. What the Republicans are doing (which strictly speaking i disagree with on grounds that using obamacare as the excuse to shut the govt down is stupid messaging) is the same thing democrats have done in the past, none of this is anyhting new, nor is negotiating on the debt ceiling either. the great thing about the way the system works is guess what they don't have to except failure, heck for that matter they can refuse to raise the debt ceiling and burn it all down, heck the dems call the republicans legislative arsonists anyway might as well prove em right.

But seriously, even if you oppose negotiation at the very least the dems should be willing to talk with republicans, even if they still want to shoot down every republican idea fine, but you get no where by not talking and not engaging, heck Newt and Bill worked things, i don't see why the pres can' meet explain his position to boehner and anyone else who carries weight in the house and work something out.

I mean hell the north and south compromised on slavery (albeit it wasn't a permanent solution) there is no reason people can't come together in dc in 2013 and work something out.

[Kalgeron]

No they hold Congress hostage to pass their retarded legislation instead and refuse to compromise, like the Republicans.

How so?

Let me make one point clear. America voted for the Democrats. Not the Republicans. For Obama. Not for Romney. If we had proportional representation, then Democrats would have more seats than the Republicans.

So, Obama has America's mandate to do what he wants. He pushed the ACA through Congress, like it should. He pushed the rest of his laws through Congress, like they should be. Give me one example where he held Congress hostage to push through a law that otherwise would have been struck down by Congress?

We do have proportional (based on population) representation in the house where Republicans have more seats than Democrats. We do not have proportional representation in the senate (2 senators per state) where Democrats have more seats than Republicans, so I am not sure what you are talking about. Hawaii gets just as many senators as California which is in no way proportional to their populations.

Just because someone gets elected president (not emperor) does not give them a mandate to do whatever they like. Every president has to go through congress and the senate to compromise and negotiate for what they want done.

[GrandKirche]

I think both sides are being ridiculous. Obamacare needs to be up for discussion for the simple reason all spending needs to be when your country can't pay its bills. That's the real issue, America is broke.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

No. This is not the fault of both the Republicans and the Democrats.

The Democrats proposed a bill. It was passed by both houses of Congress, and signed into law. The law was challenged on Constitutional grounds, and was upheld by the highest court in the land. The GOP then ran a candidate for President who promised to repeal the law. He lost by a significant margin. They have attempted nearly fifty repeals of the law. All of them failed. Now the Republicans are playing havoc with people's lives by shutting down the government until this bill that has passed through every single facet of our constitutional representative democracy's system of checks and balances is modified somehow? No. There is nothing to negotiate. They had several opportunities to repeal, overhaul, or otherwise get rid of the AHCA, and they failed at all of them. This isn't about two sides refusing to compromise. This is about one side refusing to accept the consequences of failure on their part.

Lots of laws are passed but never get funded, no past congress can bind a future one. What the Republicans are doing (which strictly speaking i disagree with on grounds that using obamacare as the excuse to shut the govt down is stupid messaging) is the same thing democrats have done in the past, none of this is anyhting new, nor is negotiating on the debt ceiling either. the great thing about the way the system works is guess what they don't have to except failure, heck for that matter they can refuse to raise the debt ceiling and burn it all down, heck the dems call the republicans legislative arsonists anyway might as well prove em right.

But seriously, even if you oppose negotiation at the very least the dems should be willing to talk with republicans, even if they still want to shoot down every republican idea fine, but you get no where by not talking and not engaging, heck Newt and Bill worked things, i don't see why the pres can' meet explain his position to boehner and anyone else who carries weight in the house and work something out.

I mean hell the north and south compromised on slavery (albeit it wasn't a permanent solution) there is no reason people can't come together in dc in 2013 and work something out.

Really? How many times did the Democrats shut down the government in order to repeal a bill that had been consistently upheld through both the legislative and judicial processes? And lest you forget, the ACA was a compromise. Most on the left wanted single-payer, or at least a public option. Instead, we got a giveaway to insurance companies.

[Lemanrussland]

I'm sure they don't have a person who's only job is to ensure that "the panda camera feed is working". That would be a waste of labor. They probably have their IT personnel deal with it.

As for your point about "why don't we cut spending to the bone when we're in the red", that doesn't make any sense from an economic perspective, and doesn't really take into the account *why* we're running large deficits (hint: It has to do with the performance of the economy, not with a structural imbalance or overspending).

If any of these politicians cared about fixing our fiscal issues, they would focus on making the economic recovery as prompt and painless as possible, and on fixing our entitlement system, instead of shutting the government down over their petty little political tit-for-tat fights.

Congress is doing a pathetic job, this mishap just the latest highlight of their performance.

Okey dokey then when the "recession ends" even though were supposed to already be recovering at what point in time do we pay off the federal debt? What year or how about what decade will tax receipts exceed govt expenditures in whasington? IF you can answer those questions sastisfactorily then I will admit you are right and quite likely bow down before you. And its' not that im even entirely opposed to countercyclical keynsianism either, sure it's fine for govt to spend money inthe "bad tiems" the problem is we do in fact have structural problems becasue the govt also spends money at nearly the same rate even when the economy is booming, even under CLinton when he briefly balanced the budget. It's fine to save a surplus in the good times to spend in the bad, but all we ever do is spend and never save in govt adn that doesn't work. You can't get to balance that way. I'm also not blaming dems alone though they certianly spend more egregiously then republicans (though after bush it's hard to tell which is worse almost) but Idon't want either party spending like this unless they got the money in the bank to back it up and we don't we have 20 trillion in debt instead.

In 2007, the deficit was only about 161 billion, or about 1.2 percent of GDP, which is almost nothing. These massive 1 trillion dollar plus deficits we've had in the past few years are cyclical, not structural. If Congress acted like it realized this, all of this talk about "we need to balance the budget now by taxing the rich/cutting entitlement spending" wouldn't be going on.

The real threat to the United States' fiscal future is the unsustainability of the entitlement system, caused by an aging population and rising healthcare costs, not the deficits we're running now. All of this grandstanding and whinging is mostly pointless, and isn't fixing our problems..

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

This is not the Republicans fault, it is the fault of both parties and it isn't the end of the world. The shutdown was because of a standoff between Republicans AND Democrats.

That's like saying it's not Joe Flacco's fault he threw five interceptions Sunday because the Buffalo defenders could have chosen to bat the balls down rather than catch them.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I think both sides are being ridiculous. Obamacare needs to be up for discussion for the simple reason all spending needs to be when your country can't pay its bills. That's the real issue, America is broke.

viewtopic.php?p=16802663#p16802663

Also, our economy has been improving significantly for years.

[Llamalandia]

If Obama isn't willing to negotiate on anything then shut the whole thing down. Rather than broker compromises and do what the American people voted him into office to do he has acted like a 5 year old and declared that he doesn't wanna play anymore if he doesn't get everything 100% his way. 2016 is getting closer and his two terms are up. Then we can put the 8 years of I refuse to negotiate (his job) behind us.

Refusing to "make a deal" with someone who's using a government shutdown as a threat is hardly a refusal to compromise or negotiate. If the GOP wanted real compromise, they'd authorize the spending and come to the negotiating table on equal terms. It's funny to me that the GOP can say "give us our carrot or we're going to shut down the government", and then is able to pin that on the President (not even on the Senate Democrats, on the President himself, for whatever reason), like it's his fault they're acting like spoiled children.

And what's to stop the dems from just completely ignoring the republicans if they get a long term budget passed? or heck for that matter let's say they pass the six week cr, are you saying that a pres who barely even returns phone calls is really going to negotiate with conservatives in good faith, because as far as I've seen the president has made any serious and credible statements suggesting that he would actually be willing to negotiate at all even if the republicans do fund the govt. Heck he won't even make things fair by treating business and individguals equally wrt the mandate, repealing the med device tax, etc etc, if youre saying that he would talk with rpublicans and actually implement some of their suggestions the nfine they should fund the govt, if not good for them burn it down, i hate govt anyway.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Better than paying someone to go shoot brown people.

At least the panda webcam provides value to the public.

I don't know what context this is in but it appears you are advocating pandas and the execution of black people equally.

What?

[Yumyumsuppertime]

How so?

Let me make one point clear. America voted for the Democrats. Not the Republicans. For Obama. Not for Romney. If we had proportional representation, then Democrats would have more seats than the Republicans.

So, Obama has America's mandate to do what he wants. He pushed the ACA through Congress, like it should. He pushed the rest of his laws through Congress, like they should be. Give me one example where he held Congress hostage to push through a law that otherwise would have been struck down by Congress?

We do have proportional (based on population) representation in the house where Republicans have more seats than Democrats. We do not have proportional representation in the senate (2 senators per state) where Democrats have more seats than Republicans, so I am not sure what you are talking about. Hawaii gets just as many senators as California which is in no way proportional to their populations.

Just because someone gets elected president (not emperor) does not give them a mandate to do whatever they like. Every president has to go through congress and the senate to compromise and negotiate for what they want done.

And he did that three years ago, when the law was passed. Also see my other comments above.

[GrandKirche]

I think both sides are being ridiculous. Obamacare needs to be up for discussion for the simple reason all spending needs to be when your country can't pay its bills. That's the real issue, America is broke.

viewtopic.php?p=16802663#p16802663

Also, our economy has been improving significantly for years.

You still haven't got the money. America is relying on increasing debt. That's the point at which you'd be telling the honourable land of anywhere else to reform or no money for you.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I don't know what context this is in but it appears you are advocating pandas and the execution of black people equally.

What?

Wait, someone managed to confuse you for a change?

This is a red-letter day.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

viewtopic.php?p=16802663#p16802663

Also, our economy has been improving significantly for years.

You still haven't got the money. America is relying on increasing debt. That's the point at which you'd be telling the honourable land of anywhere else to reform or no money for you.

Okay. Show me the numbers of America's increasing debt with Obamacare, and without it. Back up your assertions with numbers.

[The New World Oceania]

If Obama isn't willing to negotiate on anything then shut the whole thing down. Rather than broker compromises and do what the American people voted him into office to do he has acted like a 5 year old and declared that he doesn't wanna play anymore if he doesn't get everything 100% his way. 2016 is getting closer and his two terms are up. Then we can put the 8 years of I refuse to negotiate (his job) behind us.

Refusing to "make a deal" with someone who's using a government shutdown as a threat is hardly a refusal to compromise or negotiate. If the GOP wanted real compromise, they'd authorize the spending and come to the negotiating table on equal terms. It's funny to me that the GOP can say "give us our carrot or we're going to shut down the government", and then is able to pin that on the President (not even on the Senate Democrats, on the President himself, for whatever reason), like it's his fault they're acting like spoiled children.

The Democrats are willing to negotiate?

The Democrats didn't show up to negotiate.

[Llamalandia]

Okey dokey then when the "recession ends" even though were supposed to already be recovering at what point in time do we pay off the federal debt? What year or how about what decade will tax receipts exceed govt expenditures in whasington? IF you can answer those questions sastisfactorily then I will admit you are right and quite likely bow down before you. And its' not that im even entirely opposed to countercyclical keynsianism either, sure it's fine for govt to spend money inthe "bad tiems" the problem is we do in fact have structural problems becasue the govt also spends money at nearly the same rate even when the economy is booming, even under CLinton when he briefly balanced the budget. It's fine to save a surplus in the good times to spend in the bad, but all we ever do is spend and never save in govt adn that doesn't work. You can't get to balance that way. I'm also not blaming dems alone though they certianly spend more egregiously then republicans (though after bush it's hard to tell which is worse almost) but Idon't want either party spending like this unless they got the money in the bank to back it up and we don't we have 20 trillion in debt instead.

In 2007, the deficit was only about 161 billion, or about 1.2 percent of GDP, which is almost nothing. These massive 1 trillion dollar plus deficits we've had in the past few years are cyclical, not structural. If Congress acted like it realized this, all of this talk about "we need to balance the budget now by taxing the rich/cutting entitlement spending" wouldn't be going on.

The real threat to the United States' fiscal future is the unsustainability of the entitlement system, caused by an aging population and rising healthcare costs, not the deficits we're running now. All of this grandstanding and whinging is mostly pointless, and isn't fixing our problems..

No i agree with you on entitlements, but what the right is concerned about is that with all it's subsidies and what not (including for families at 400% the poverty getting govt aid to by insurance) that this program will run away and won't be able to be reform or repealed just like ss and medicare adn medicaid can't be touched in politics. I mean I would be more sympathetic to your postiion if the dems hadn't ran ads about Paul Ryan throwing granny off a cliff with his medicare reform plan.

Additionally small deficit =/= surplus you need to havem oney to spend money, we are spending money whether we have it or not, and we would need sustained double digit gdp growth to be able repay the kind of debt we've already acumulated. If you have a suggestion on how to get there I' be happy to here it though.

[GrandKirche]

You still haven't got the money. America is relying on increasing debt. That's the point at which you'd be telling the honourable land of anywhere else to reform or no money for you.

Okay. Show me the numbers of America's increasing debt with Obamacare, and without it. Back up your assertions with numbers.

I'm going to go with the debt ceiling being about to run out again.

I don't give a flying fig about Obamacare tbh, you need to make cuts, when you've told the rest of the world how to run their affairs, first in first out was a pretty common rule.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Refusing to "make a deal" with someone who's using a government shutdown as a threat is hardly a refusal to compromise or negotiate. If the GOP wanted real compromise, they'd authorize the spending and come to the negotiating table on equal terms. It's funny to me that the GOP can say "give us our carrot or we're going to shut down the government", and then is able to pin that on the President (not even on the Senate Democrats, on the President himself, for whatever reason), like it's his fault they're acting like spoiled children.

The Democrats are willing to negotiate?

The Democrats didn't show up to negotiate.

My god.

That staged photo op absolutely supports your assertion.

I'll have to rethink everything now.

[The UK in Exile]

Okay. Show me the numbers of America's increasing debt with Obamacare, and without it. Back up your assertions with numbers.

I'm going to go with the debt ceiling being about to run out again.

wholly arbitrary fiscal limits Bachmann!

[Kalgeron]

If Obama isn't willing to negotiate on anything then shut the whole thing down. Rather than broker compromises and do what the American people voted him into office to do he has acted like a 5 year old and declared that he doesn't wanna play anymore if he doesn't get everything 100% his way. 2016 is getting closer and his two terms are up. Then we can put the 8 years of I refuse to negotiate (his job) behind us.

Refusing to "make a deal" with someone who's using a government shutdown as a threat is hardly a refusal to compromise or negotiate. If the GOP wanted real compromise, they'd authorize the spending and come to the negotiating table on equal terms. It's funny to me that the GOP can say "give us our carrot or we're going to shut down the government", and then is able to pin that on the President (not even on the Senate Democrats, on the President himself, for whatever reason), like it's his fault they're acting like spoiled children.

Congress is in charge of spending and appropriation. If they want to shutdown the government then they can shutdown the government it is a power the constitution gave them.

If the president wants anything that costs money then he has to go through congress. He doesn't get to say give me this money, and I am not willing to negotiate or do anything for it.

The legislative branch is the strongest branch outlined in the constitution and I think everyone is about to find that out.