A question for Anti-Theists

[The Grey Wolf]

Aren't all beliefs a matter of psychology? Then, would you believe criticising homophobia is "poor in taste"?

For a homophobe to have specific emotional feelings toward a homosexual person is unfortunate, but may not be within his or her control, so yes in some cases it is poor taste, but I also believe that doesn't give them special privilege to harm others who are homosexual. So yes, and no.

There are quite a few homophobes who later end their homophobia, I doubt it's a neurological trait, rather, it has to do with culture and upbringing.

[Anachronous Rex]

Why conflate opposition with hatred?

Well your right you can't say that they all hate religion but most anti-theist I've had the pleasure of conversing with tend to just hate religion things that happened ether hundreds of years ago or acts done by minorities in that religious group. Although I still just don't see the need to hate even if the majority don't hate it.

I dislike mainly the infantilizing aspects of religious belief.

I also would oppose certain deities were they to exist.

There. That's my anti-theism.

[The Steel Magnolia]

But if you hate spirituality, if you seek the destruction of religion, you seek intolerance. And that is something I cannot and will not support.

Well perhaps organized religion might itself be something that they have specific opposition to. There are some who wish to eradicate religion completely, but it is not within their rights to do so.

Organized religion is, often, a natural consequence of religious beliefs. Depending on how you define it, going to Church is 'organized religion'.

Organized religions that seek to, say, illegalize abortion? that's something else.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Well your right you can't say that they all hate religion but most anti-theist I've had the pleasure of conversing with tend to just hate religion things that happened ether hundreds of years ago or acts done by minorities in that religious group. Although I still just don't see the need to hate even if the majority don't hate it.

I dislike mainly the infantilizing aspects of religious belief.

I also would oppose certain deities were they to exist.

There. That's my anti-theism.

That's great.

Some people don't feel that their religion is infantilizing, but rather empowering. Who are you to say their faith is wrong, that their belief is what you, and not they, think it is?

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'm not blindly lambasting you.

I'm saying if you hate religious belief (which anti-theism is, in fact, opposed to), you're intolerant. Flat out, you're intolerant. No ifs ands or buts. If you hate religious hatred, fine. If you hate religious, governance, cool. If you hate religious extremism, I'm right up there with you!

But if you hate spirituality, if you seek the destruction of religion, you seek intolerance. And that is something I cannot and will not support.

Spirituality isn't religion.

Oh it damn well can be.

[Crystal Spires]

There are quite a few homophobes who later end their homophobia, I doubt it's a neurological trait, rather, it has to do with culture and upbringing.

Homophobia is many things, one is the discomfort around or near a homosexual person, another is fear that another person will believe one is homosexual, other is fear of unwanted sexual advances by a homosexual, and another is just disgust and hatred of homosexuals. Not all of them are classical phobias, but some are, and phobias as a general rule like anxiety require management to get it under control, but it doesn't really get rid of it. The hatred? Completely a poster of indoctrination. In many ways it's reprehensible, but at the same time, I don't think it's the entire spectrum of homophobia, and again it is in poor taste to criticize a person for their fears.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Their own faith, however, was what was repressing them. They wouldn't have needed to become feminist if Christian "values" hadn't have permeated Western society, reducing them to the level of inferiors.

...Jesus Christ.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah, the women who find solace in religion? their faith is the real problem at hand! Not the fact that they might rest secure in the knowledge that after a life full of misery and hell they might have something to look forwards to. Not in the fact that after, say, being raped by their father until they were fifteen, religion was their only source of comfort. Not in the fact that they might face violence and harassment every day.

You may not need crutches, but don't seek to tear them away from the people who need them.

We're talking about the feminist values of Christianity, not some metaphorical "crutches", and as far as I see, Christianity has little to no feminist values, presenting women as inferior to men from the very beginning.

Sure, feminists may have clung to Christianity to find some solace from their lives, but that doesn't change the fact that Christianity is the very reason they were second-class citizens in the first place. Again, I'm not saying we should take away their faith or attempt to deconvert them, I'm merely stating the facts.

[Crystal Spires]

I dislike mainly the infantilizing aspects of religious belief. I also would oppose certain deities were they to exist. There. That's my anti-theism.

Well what infantilizing aspect are you speaking of? I'm actually curious.

[The Steel Magnolia]

...Jesus Christ.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah, the women who find solace in religion? their faith is the real problem at hand! Not the fact that they might rest secure in the knowledge that after a life full of misery and hell they might have something to look forwards to. Not in the fact that after, say, being raped by their father until they were fifteen, religion was their only source of comfort. Not in the fact that they might face violence and harassment every day.

You may not need crutches, but don't seek to tear them away from the people who need them.

We're talking about the feminist values of Christianity, not some metaphorical "crutches", and as far as I see, Christianity has little to no feminist values, presenting women as inferior to men from the very beginning.

Sure, feminists may have clung to Christianity to find some solace from their lives, but that doesn't change the fact that Christianity is the very reason they were second-class citizens in the first place. Again, I'm not saying we should take away their faith or attempt to deconvert them, I'm merely stating the facts.

Literally nothing you stated is true in any way shape or form. Patriarchy was a thing long before Christianity, and Christianity was a tool just as every other religion was.

Also jesus I wasn't talking about Christianity being necessarily feminist. I was saying that faith and belief can be positive things. So many people in the world lack love, how can it possibly be a sin to believe in some thing that loves you no matter what?

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Aren't all beliefs a matter of psychology? Then, would you believe criticising homophobia is "poor in taste"?

For a homophobe to have specific emotional feelings toward a homosexual person is unfortunate, but may not be within his or her control, so yes in some cases it is poor taste, but I also believe that doesn't give them special privilege to harm others who are homosexual. So yes, and no.

It's no more within their control than any other opinion or ideological stance. You can't excuse certain beliefs just because they're not within our control.

[Seitonjin]

Just to let y'all know my form of anti-theism is the one that opposes an existence of a higher power.

Not the new bling bling one that opposes religion.

[The Grey Wolf]

There are quite a few homophobes who later end their homophobia, I doubt it's a neurological trait, rather, it has to do with culture and upbringing.

Homophobia is many things, one is the discomfort around or near a homosexual person, another is fear that another person will believe one is homosexual, other is fear of unwanted sexual advances by a homosexual, and another is just disgust and hatred of homosexuals. Not all of them are classical phobias, but some are, and phobias as a general rule like anxiety require management to get it under control, but it doesn't really get rid of it. The hatred? Completely a poster of indoctrination. In many ways it's reprehensible, but at the same time, I don't think it's the entire spectrum of homophobia.

I doubt "homophobia" as a phobia exists. There's a difference between respectfully disliking homosexuality, or being uncomfortable around kissing gays (which I am guilty of.) and screaming "God Hates Fags." In either case, I doubt that it is anything neurological.

[Anachronous Rex]

What makes you think I don't criticize the hate that springs from it? I'm usually quite vocal about that, as it happens.

I wish for a moment you would stop just blindly lambasting me, and actually consider that my position may not be unreasonable. But whether you are capable of that or not, my position clearly isn't what you think it is.

That you can make a thing important or integral to you does not shield it from reasonable criticism. We could argue over to what degree sexuality is a choice, but generally we do not choose our sexuality. Criticizing someone for something they had no choice over is an entirely different matter.

You do no service to either subject with this conflation.

I'm not blindly lambasting you.

I'm saying if you hate religious belief

And I'm telling you flat-out that I don't.

(which anti-theism is, in fact, opposed to)

Opposition is not hatred. This is not hard.

you're intolerant. Flat out, you're intolerant. No ifs ands or buts.

I'm incredibly tolerant. So much so that I am willing to fight to the death to defend whatever inane nonsense people wish to believe in, even though I may find it unhealthy, anti-social, or wicked. I would do so even knowing that they would not do the same for me.

If you hate religious hatred, fine. If you hate religious, governance, cool. If you hate religious extremism, I'm right up there with you!

What I hate is willful ignorance, and abuse. To the extent I might hate some aspect of religion, it is only because they embody these.

But hate is very low on the things that are important to me. I get the sense that it is much more important to you, and I feel sorry for you.

But if you hate spirituality, if you seek the destruction of religion, you seek intolerance. And that is something I cannot and will not support.

I seek the destruction of misinformation, and the end of religion not as the result of any direct action, but because we as people grow out of it.

I want to change people's minds, not punish them believing differently.

So kindly fuck off.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Homophobia is many things, one is the discomfort around or near a homosexual person, another is fear that another person will believe one is homosexual, other is fear of unwanted sexual advances by a homosexual, and another is just disgust and hatred of homosexuals. Not all of them are classical phobias, but some are, and phobias as a general rule like anxiety require management to get it under control, but it doesn't really get rid of it. The hatred? Completely a poster of indoctrination. In many ways it's reprehensible, but at the same time, I don't think it's the entire spectrum of homophobia.

I doubt "homophobia" as a phobia exists. There's a difference between respectfully disliking homosexuality, or being uncomfortable around kissing gays (which I am guilty of.) and screaming "God Hates Fags." In either case, I doubt that it is anything neurological.

Not really.

The difference, you so described, is no more than the difference in treatment between house and field slaves.

[Meridiani Planum]

I'd like to ask a question of anti-theists who "oppose the existence of a higher power". I don't mean anti-theists who define themselves as anti-religion.

What do you mean that you oppose the existence of a higher power? What does that mean? Can you explain your anti-theism and distinguish it from atheism?

[Nationalist State of Knox]

We're talking about the feminist values of Christianity, not some metaphorical "crutches", and as far as I see, Christianity has little to no feminist values, presenting women as inferior to men from the very beginning.

Sure, feminists may have clung to Christianity to find some solace from their lives, but that doesn't change the fact that Christianity is the very reason they were second-class citizens in the first place. Again, I'm not saying we should take away their faith or attempt to deconvert them, I'm merely stating the facts.

Literally nothing you stated is true in any way shape or form. Patriarchy was a thing long before Christianity, and Christianity was a tool just as every other religion was.

I meant in Western society at the time of the beginning of the feminist movement, not the entirety of world history.

Also jesus I wasn't talking about Christianity being necessarily feminist. I was saying that faith and belief can be positive things. So many people in the world lack love, how can it possibly be a sin to believe in some thing that loves you no matter what?

I don't have a problem with this.

[Crystal Spires]

It's no more within their control than any other opinion or ideological stance. You can't excuse certain beliefs just because they're not within our control.

Not entirely, certain emotions like fear are subjective, and not triggered by any particular thought perse. It's not political or ideological, it's the same reaction that a person who is afraid of dogs will have when confronted by




It is an irrational fear or discomfort, and is not actually willed.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'm not blindly lambasting you.

I'm saying if you hate religious belief

And I'm telling you flat-out that I don't.

(which anti-theism is, in fact, opposed to)

Opposition is not hatred. This is not hard.

you're intolerant. Flat out, you're intolerant. No ifs ands or buts.

I'm incredibly tolerant. So much so that I am willing to fight to the death to defend whatever inane nonsense people wish to believe in, even though I may find it unhealthy, anti-social, or wicked. I would do so even knowing that they would not do the same for me.

If you hate religious hatred, fine. If you hate religious, governance, cool. If you hate religious extremism, I'm right up there with you!

What I hate is willful ignorance, and abuse. To the extent I might hate some aspect of religion, it is only because they embody these.

But hate is very low on the things that are important to me. I get the sense that it is much more important to you, and I feel sorry for you.

But if you hate spirituality, if you seek the destruction of religion, you seek intolerance. And that is something I cannot and will not support.

I seek the destruction of misinformation, and the end of religion not as the result of any direct action, but because we as people grow out of it.

I want to change people's minds, not punish them believing differently.

So kindly fuck off.

I wasn't aware that I stated that you, explicitly, hated spirituality and religion.

also cool flame.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

It's no more within their control than any other opinion or ideological stance. You can't excuse certain beliefs just because they're not within our control.

Not entirely, certain emotions like fear are subjective, and not triggered by any particular thought perse. It's not political or ideological, it's the same reaction that a person who is afraid of dogs will have when confronted by

It is an irrational fear or discomfort, and is not actually willed.

But much of homophobia doesn't stem from literal "fear".

[Crystal Spires]

uncomfortable around kissing gays (which I am guilty of.)

^This exactly is a phobia. It's nothing you will. It's just an emotionally triggered feeling.

[Anachronous Rex]

I dislike mainly the infantilizing aspects of religious belief. I also would oppose certain deities were they to exist. There. That's my anti-theism.

Well what infantilizing aspect are you speaking of? I'm actually curious.

I'm very tired, so I'll just have Rushdie explain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMHVfHv72Eg

[Meridiani Planum]

Regarding the word "hate", which is thrown around far too casually IMO, I personally reserve that word for people who knowingly wish harm on others.

Many people who are called hateful are actually motivated by kindness and benevolence. It seems contradictory to have "kind hatred".

[Crystal Spires]

But much of homophobia doesn't stem from literal "fear".

But some does, and thus I cannot blanketly say it should be criticized as I mentioned before. I described all types of homophobia before did I not?

There are some that are not willed at all, they're just gut emotional responses.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Regarding the word "hate", which is thrown around far too casually IMO, I personally reserve that word for people who wish harm on others.

Many people who are called hateful are actually motivated by kindness and benevolence. It seems contradictory to have "kind hatred".

The people who run ex gay camps might be motivated by kindness and benevolence. It's still hatred.

Terrorists are motivated by what they see as a kind and benevolent world. They're still hateful.

Intentions mean little to nothing. Actions have meaning.

[The Grey Wolf]

...Jesus Christ.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah, the women who find solace in religion? their faith is the real problem at hand! Not the fact that they might rest secure in the knowledge that after a life full of misery and hell they might have something to look forwards to. Not in the fact that after, say, being raped by their father until they were fifteen, religion was their only source of comfort. Not in the fact that they might face violence and harassment every day.

You may not need crutches, but don't seek to tear them away from the people who need them.

We're talking about the feminist values of Christianity, not some metaphorical "crutches", and as far as I see, Christianity has little to no feminist values, presenting women as inferior to men from the very beginning.

Sure, feminists may have clung to Christianity to find some solace from their lives, but that doesn't change the fact that Christianity is the very reason they were second-class citizens in the first place. Again, I'm not saying we should take away their faith or attempt to deconvert them, I'm merely stating the facts.

Yeah, I'm not a Christian, but let's not blame Christianity for stuff it didn't do. Pre-Christian, Pagan Rome was just as misognyst, if not worse, than the Christian Church.