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A Survey on the Importance of Prices

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Xerographica
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A Survey on the Importance of Prices

Postby Xerographica » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:37 pm

Just how important are prices anyways?

Image

A few definitions/descriptions...

Efficient allocation: Each resource has a nearly infinite amount of uses. Each use provides a different amount of value. For example, you can use your car to safely go from point A to point B...or can use your car to ram other cars. Most people, thank goodness, derive more value from the first use. Resources are efficiently allocated when they are put to their most valuable uses.

Market economy (no prices): Every organization would be a non-profit, but you could choose which non-profits you give your money to.

Consumer sovereignty: Individuals decide for themselves which uses of their limited resources they value most. Consumers are sovereign in market economies but not in planned economies.

Opportunity cost: One use of a limited resource requires the sacrifice of alternative uses. For example, you could give a dollar to a homeless shelter or to an animal shelter. You are neither homeless...nor an animal...therefore you're not going to be served by either organization. You do, however, value both of their services. But because you can't spend the same dollar twice, you'll have to sacrifice one of the organizations. Therefore, whichever organization you give your dollar to will reveal which use of your dollar you value most...at that specific point in time.

My answer to the survey...A-0, B-7.5, C-8. From my perspective, there's a huge disparity in the allocative efficiency between planned economies and market economies...and little, if any, of that has to do with prices. It simply has to do with the fact that in a planned economy people's preferences are either assumed, or disregarded. As a result, how society's limited resources are used (the supply) does not reflect the actual demand for goods/services. When individuals do not have the freedom to decide which uses of their limited resources they value most...it's a given that resources will not be put to their most valuable uses.

However, I believe that most/all free-market economists give more weight to the importance of prices than I do. So in theory, the greater the distance between B and C on the allocative efficiency scale, the more weight a person gives to the importance of prices. So their answer might look something like this...A-0, B-3, C-8.

For example, let's consider some passages from the free-market economist Ludwig von Mises...

The entrepreneur in a capitalist society depends upon the market and upon the consumers. He has to obey the orders which the consumers transmit to him by their buying or failure to buy, and the mandate with which they have charged him can be revoked at any hour. Every entrepreneur and every owner of means of production must daily justify his social function through subservience to the wants of the consumers.

Within the market society each serves all his fellow citizens and each is served by them. It is a system of mutual exchange of services and commodities, a mutual giving and receiving. In that endless rotating mechanism the entrepreneurs and capitalists are the servants of the consumers. The consumers are the masters, to whose whims the entrepreneurs and the capitalists must adjust their investments and methods of production. The market chooses the entrepreneurs and the capitalists, and removes them as soon as they prove failures. The market is a democracy in which every penny gives a right to vote and where voting is repeated every day.

To be in business, to depend directly on the approval or disapproval of one’s actions by the consumers, to woo the patronage of the buyers, and to earn profit if one succeeds in satisfying them better than one’s competitors do is, from the point of view of officialdom’s ideology, selfish and shameful. Only those on the government’s payroll are rated as unselfish and noble.

What vitiates entirely the socialists economic critique of capitalism is their failure to grasp the sovereignty of the consumers in the market economy.

Clearly Mises believed that consumer sovereignty is essential. But did he believe that it was more important than prices?

Each individual, in buying or not buying and in selling or not selling, contributes his share to the formation of the market prices. But the larger the market is, the smaller is the weight of each individuals contribution. Thus the structure of market prices appears to the individual as a datum to which he must adjust his own conduct.

Economic calculation can only take place by means of money prices established in the market for production goods in a society resting on private property in the means of production.

Where there is no market, there is no price system, and where there is no price system there can be no economic calculation.

Economic calculation makes it possible for business to adjust production to the demands of the consumers.

For Mises, economic calculation depends on prices...so without prices...it would be impossible for organizations to effectively meet the demands of consumers. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to argue that from Mises' perspective, consumer sovereignty would be of little use in a system without prices. However, as far as I know, he never specifically discussed a market system without prices.

From my perspective, if individuals are free to choose the most valuable uses of their limited resources...then I don't quite grasp how it would be possible for resources to be inefficiently allocated.

Clearly it matches my preferences for there to be more discussion on the topic! I look forward to seeing your survey answers. Please note that filling out the survey won't cost you a dime...but there will be an opportunity cost. The question is whether filling out the survey will provide you with more value than the alternative uses of your limited time. Only you know the answer to this question...which is why market economies create value while planned economies destroy value.
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:40 pm

A planned economy rarely provides what is actually needed so I'll give it a 1 rating.
B and C are probably very similar in nature as prices barely move a needle outside of certain mined substances. I'd put both of them around 8 to 9 in efficiency. B having no prices at an 8 and the priced market place at 9.
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Verbal Pararhea
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Postby Verbal Pararhea » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:43 pm

The pricing mechanism is quite important, and it is able to deal with complexities faster than a planned economy. In general, I only support a planned economy for essential services, including a social safety net. I don't think things outside of this should be planned, save for regulations to prohibit externalities and resolve information asymmetries, both of which can create inefficiencies. Socialists make sound moral arguments in favor of socialism. However, policy is much more about what works, not about what's right or fair. I'm a utilitarian on this. Planned economies just don't work.

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Phocidaea
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Postby Phocidaea » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:50 pm

The fuck is a market economy without prices? Barter?
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The Serbian Empire
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Postby The Serbian Empire » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:51 pm

Phocidaea wrote:The fuck is a market economy without prices? Barter?

Open bid... an auction where the best offer wins. That means the seller wants the highest price and the buyer will seek the lowest price possible and they hope to reach an agreement. It's more like haggling.
Last edited by The Serbian Empire on Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:48 pm

A=1, B=6,C=9
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Seitonjin
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Postby Seitonjin » Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:50 pm

A=3
B=7
C=7

The Serbian Empire wrote:
Phocidaea wrote:The fuck is a market economy without prices? Barter?

Open bid... an auction where the best offer wins. That means the seller wants the highest price and the buyer will seek the lowest price possible and they hope to reach an agreement. It's more like haggling.

Used in less developed nations no?
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The Silence of Night
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Postby The Silence of Night » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:08 pm

Phocidaea wrote:The fuck is a market economy without prices? Barter?

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Progressivism 100
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Your test scores indicate that you are an open-minded ultra-progressive; this is the political profile one might associate with a journalist. It appears that you are skeptical towards religion, and have a balanced attitude towards humanity in general.

Your attitudes towards economics appear neither committedly capitalist nor socialist, and combined with your social attitudes this creates the picture of someone who would generally be described as a liberal.

To round out the picture you appear to be, political preference aside, a sensible realistic egalitarian with several strong convictions.

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Postby Jello Biafra » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:11 pm

Xerographica wrote:It simply has to do with the fact that in a planned economy people's preferences are either assumed, or disregarded.

It might be the case that this occurs in practice, but this isn't what must occur.

From my perspective, if individuals are free to choose the most valuable uses of their limited resources...then I don't quite grasp how it would be possible for resources to be inefficiently allocated.

For starters, consumers are only able to allocate their resources to whichever items are available; a more efficient allocation might be unavailable. Prices do not allow suppliers to determine if this is the case.

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DogDoo 7
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Postby DogDoo 7 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:52 pm

Prices are very important in determining where I shop. Especially considering that they can vary as much as 50% or so depending where you are in the city.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:02 pm

Verbal Pararhea wrote:The pricing mechanism is quite important, and it is able to deal with complexities faster than a planned economy. In general, I only support a planned economy for essential services, including a social safety net. I don't think things outside of this should be planned, save for regulations to prohibit externalities and resolve information asymmetries, both of which can create inefficiencies. Socialists make sound moral arguments in favor of socialism. However, policy is much more about what works, not about what's right or fair. I'm a utilitarian on this. Planned economies just don't work.

If the government can supply the optimal amount of defense...then wouldn't we also want the government to supply the optimal amount of milk? If the government cannot supply the optimal amount of milk...then how could it possibly supply the optimal amount of defense? Why would we want a suboptimal supply of defense? Why would we want to have a shortage/surplus of defense?

The optimal amount of milk is determined by what people are willing to pay for milk. It's the same thing with defense. Except, it's reasonable to argue that defense would be undersupplied by markets because of the free-rider problem. However, if you force people to pay taxes, but allow them to decide for themselves how much of their taxes they spend on defense, then the optimal amount of defense would be supplied.
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Verbal Pararhea
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Postby Verbal Pararhea » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:06 pm

Xerographica wrote:If the government can supply the optimal amount of defense...then wouldn't we also want the government to supply the optimal amount of milk? If the government cannot supply the optimal amount of milk...then how could it possibly supply the optimal amount of defense? Why would we want a suboptimal supply of defense? Why would we want to have a shortage/surplus of defense?

The optimal amount of milk is determined by what people are willing to pay for milk. It's the same thing with defense. Except, it's reasonable to argue that defense would be undersupplied by markets because of the free-rider problem. However, if you force people to pay taxes, but allow them to decide for themselves how much of their taxes they spend on defense, then the optimal amount of defense would be supplied.


I'm a pragmatist. If it can be shown that privatized defense could actually work in practice, I would support it. Right now, I remain unconvinced, and I'm unwilling to change to such a system without evidence it would work. Even if the present system is bad, I don't want to risk changing it to something that could be worse.

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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:08 pm

Phocidaea wrote:The fuck is a market economy without prices? Barter?

I think he means "without profit".
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 pm

A: 3-4. Although suffering from any number of inefficiencies and shortages, planned economies were generally able to deliver substantial material improvement in the quality of life of their citizens; although certainly not comparable to the advanced market economies of the time, they were able to produce some major improvements and generally avoided the kind of famine and suffering seen in developing countries (with exceptions).

B: 0-1. Completely inefficient, it would remove the primary means of allocating goods and services in a market economy and produce an endless series of tragedy-of-the-commons issues, shortages and serious deficits in capital formation and financing.

C: 7-8. Although prone to irrational behavior and market failures, a competitive marketplace with a strong pricing system is the most efficient way to allocate most goods and services.
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Postby Priory Academy USSR » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:16 pm

Xerographica wrote:If the government can supply the optimal amount of defense...then wouldn't we also want the government to supply the optimal amount of milk? If the government cannot supply the optimal amount of milk...then how could it possibly supply the optimal amount of defense? Why would we want a suboptimal supply of defense? Why would we want to have a shortage/surplus of defense?



Because people have no idea how much defence they might actually need, unless they've had military training and experience in large-scale scenarios. The government has masses of experts who understand to decide this.
People do, however, have a very good idea about how much milk they need, and no expert sitting in the capital can predict that.
It's a false equivalence.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:18 pm

The Silence of Night wrote:Ebay


I'd say a website like Ebay is the epitome of a market economy with prices...
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:36 pm

Verbal Pararhea wrote:I'm a pragmatist. If it can be shown that privatized defense could actually work in practice, I would support it. Right now, I remain unconvinced, and I'm unwilling to change to such a system without evidence it would work. Even if the present system is bad, I don't want to risk changing it to something that could be worse.

Well...I can see how it might seem like I'm advocating for a privatized defense system...but I'm really not. That being said, I don't doubt that a defense non-profit would "work". The question is whether it would receive "adequate" funding. But I don't have to try and prove that it would...simply because I'm not an anarcho-capitalist...I'm a pragmatarian.

In a pragmatarian system, taxpayers would still have to pay taxes, but they would be able to choose where their taxes go. You could start a defense non-profit in the private sector...and if you made me feel more secure than the DoD...then I would give your non-profit more and more donations and the DoD less and less of my tax dollars. And if more people did the same, then the DoD would either have to change its use of society's limited resources to better match the preference of consumers...or it would go bankrupt.

If the DoD went bankrupt, then the scope of government would narrow, and it's likely that congress would receive more revenue if they lowered the tax rate.

Therefore, pragmatarianism is a no risk system to determine which sector produces the best results. To be pragmatic is to focus on results...not get bogged down in stupid debates like left versus right.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:03 pm

Priory Academy USSR wrote:Because people have no idea how much defence they might actually need, unless they've had military training and experience in large-scale scenarios. The government has masses of experts who understand to decide this.
People do, however, have a very good idea about how much milk they need, and no expert sitting in the capital can predict that.
It's a false equivalence.

But I've never had any training in large-scale cow milking scenarios! I've never even milked a cow in my life! I have seen them milked on TV though...and I have driven by a dairy farm. Maybe I made the wrong decision when I decided to quit drinking milk years ago?

If we applied your logic to every single good/service...then people would only be able to purchase the things that they actually produced. But given how specialized we are these days...people wouldn't even be able to buy the products/services that they help produce. That's because it's extremely rare that only one type of expertise is required to produce any given good/service.

Just because our society is based on the division of labor concept does not mean that the experts should dictate how much of their products/services we buy. Nope.

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Postby Lemanrussland » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:13 pm

A: 3-4, most of the planned economies had really bad structural problems, coupled with chronic shortages of goods. I think Mises is right when it comes to prices being essential for economic calculation, Soviet bureaucrats had to use the prices of goods on the world market in order to formulate their economic plans for the year.
B: 3, would be plagued by free rider problems, people who probably eventually begin bartering and trading goods in a black market under that kind of system.
C: 8, although it has it's problems (market failure, price lags, non-competitive markets, negative externalities and so on, these sorts of problems can be alleviated by government policy), it's generally the most efficient way of allocating economic resources.

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Postby 4years » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:40 pm

A: 5 to 10
B: 0 to 6
C: 3 to 7
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Postby Caninope » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:04 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Verbal Pararhea wrote:The pricing mechanism is quite important, and it is able to deal with complexities faster than a planned economy. In general, I only support a planned economy for essential services, including a social safety net. I don't think things outside of this should be planned, save for regulations to prohibit externalities and resolve information asymmetries, both of which can create inefficiencies. Socialists make sound moral arguments in favor of socialism. However, policy is much more about what works, not about what's right or fair. I'm a utilitarian on this. Planned economies just don't work.

If the government can supply the optimal amount of defense...then wouldn't we also want the government to supply the optimal amount of milk? If the government cannot supply the optimal amount of milk...then how could it possibly supply the optimal amount of defense? Why would we want a suboptimal supply of defense? Why would we want to have a shortage/surplus of defense?

The optimal amount of milk is determined by what people are willing to pay for milk. It's the same thing with defense. Except, it's reasonable to argue that defense would be undersupplied by markets because of the free-rider problem. However, if you force people to pay taxes, but allow them to decide for themselves how much of their taxes they spend on defense, then the optimal amount of defense would be supplied.

You just answered your own question. However, by reintroducing what is essentially voluntary taxing, you're just recreating the free-rider problem.
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Xerographica
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Postby Xerographica » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:11 pm

Caninope wrote:You just answered your own question. However, by reintroducing what is essentially voluntary taxing, you're just recreating the free-rider problem.

Let's say that people had to pay taxes, but they could choose where their taxes go (pragmatarianism). Which of the following would concern you the most...

1. If a majority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was overfunded
2. If a majority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was underfunded
3. If a minority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was overfunded
4. If a minority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was underfunded
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4years
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Postby 4years » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:29 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Caninope wrote:You just answered your own question. However, by reintroducing what is essentially voluntary taxing, you're just recreating the free-rider problem.

Let's say that people had to pay taxes, but they could choose where their taxes go (pragmatarianism). Which of the following would concern you the most...

1. If a majority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was overfunded
2. If a majority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was underfunded
3. If a minority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was overfunded
4. If a minority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was underfunded


What would concern me the most would be the dumbass way taxes were being collected and the horridous amount of waste and red tape that would be involved. That said, given the current situation 2 would appear the most undesirable senario.
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"In place of bourgeois society with all of it's classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, one in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all" -Karl Marx
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Caninope
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Postby Caninope » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:31 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Caninope wrote:You just answered your own question. However, by reintroducing what is essentially voluntary taxing, you're just recreating the free-rider problem.

Let's say that people had to pay taxes, but they could choose where their taxes go (pragmatarianism). Which of the following would concern you the most...

1. If a majority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was overfunded
2. If a majority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was underfunded
3. If a minority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was overfunded
4. If a minority of taxpayers perceived that the DoD was underfunded

None of the above. I'd be worried if experts though the DoD was underfunded or overfunded.
Last edited by Caninope on Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Phocidaea
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Postby Phocidaea » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:03 pm

4years wrote:A: 5 to 10
B: 0 to 6
C: 3 to 7

Good. We need the odd commie to balance out the AnCap types who are going "0, 10, 9" and stuff.
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