Abortion and Capital Punishment

[The ivain isles]

Yet the intellectually disabled are wards of the state, are human, and afforded their unalienable right to life,

nope

for the severely mentally handicapped which are much higher on the scale than a fetus, it requires the justification of directly conflicting with the quality of life of a non-mentally handicapped Homo sapien, in which case they can also be terminated.
again see conjoined twins.

I said right to life, not of life, and no, the courts may interfere, where it sees the rights of those who are under it's protection being violated, at least in my jurisdiction, that's the case.

[The ivain isles]

Why do you think I'm not? And how does it violate her bodily rights, it isn't on her body anymore, I thought that was the point of an abortion, to remove it from her body?

You mean after an abortion?
Because it's been floating in its own pee for several months. That's fucking disgusting, man. Also because of evolution and stuff. Don't eat your own species' young.

I think if you read any of the previous posts, you'd see that apparently, ah, everything is on the table.

[New Libertarian States]

A mother?
Which doesn't make it human, it has the POTENTIAL to turn into a person.
The other option, of course, is that it dies/aborted.

1) Not without a fetus forming first inside the said mother.

2) It doesn't make it anything other than human if it is a human fetus. They do not become antelopes.

3) Which is basically the same as killing a human being as you are killing something that can fully form into a adult human. It is no different from killing babies. Sure you can argue the sentience/sapience part, but just that doesn't make something human (A.I for eg) and not having that doesn't make its life any less important either, especially if it can grow up to be an actual human being with those qualities.

1)Ok, wasn't arguing that
2)Ok?
3)So can sperm cells. So can eggs.You can pretty much argue that it isn't sapient or sentient, and it hasn't shown it can perform abstract reasoning.
It looks and quacks like a duck, but it's another type of water fowl.

[Sociobiology]

nope

for the severely mentally handicapped which are much higher on the scale than a fetus, it requires the justification of directly conflicting with the quality of life of a non-mentally handicapped Homo sapien, in which case they can also be terminated.
again see conjoined twins.

I said right to life, not of life, and no, the courts may interfere, where it sees the rights of those who are under it's protection being violated, at least in my jurisdiction, that's the case.

check, because you are wrong, the court cannot stop this unless it feels some other factor has been introduced, such as misinformation, or fraud.
but lets go deeper, the dependent twin need not even be mentally handicapped to be terminated, if they are young enough.
the quality of life of the surviving twin out weights the intrinsic value of the dependent twin.

two sets of rights are in conflict, and the surviving twins rights supersede the rights of the dependent one, just as the woman's rights supersede the fetus' rights.

[Geilinor]

it is to the same extent is is given to dogs or cats, which are far more mentally advanced.
their guardian decides.

Yet the intellectually disabled are wards of the state, are human, and afforded their unalienable right to life, even if they are not fully developed mentally and intellectually.

The intellectually disabled don't live inside of fully developed humans. Fetuses do. Like tumors.

[The ivain isles]

I said right to life, not of life, and no, the courts may interfere, where it sees the rights of those who are under it's protection being violated, at least in my jurisdiction, that's the case.

check, because you are wrong, the court cannot stop this unless it feels some other factor has been introduced, such as misinformation, or fraud.
but lets go deeper, the dependent twin need not even be mentally handicapped to be terminated, if they are young enough.
the quality of life of the surviving twin out weights the intrinsic value of the dependent twin.

In your jurisdiction maybe, but not in mine, which has a less utilitarian approach to life.

[Solarys]

1) Sperm/ova needs to fuse with ova/sperm

and zygotes need to implant in the uterine wall

and they are naturally removed from the body.

so are most zygotes

2) I might/might not be familiar with what you said. And i haven't been keeping myself upto date with it either. Anyway, that is just out of curiosity. You can disregard it if you want.

so you can ignore it relevancy because of ignorance, nice cop out.

3) Tumor is deadly

no most tumors are benign, are you saying people should be forced to keep benign tumors?

Extracted organs don't grow upto be fully formed human beings, neither do tumors

neither do extracted fetuses

1) I never said otherwise and zygotes aren't removed from the body in the normal cases, not like sperm or ova. Exceptions are not the norm.

2) It would be easy for you to just link the source. You brought it into discussion. Are you implying that i should google for sources to figure out what you are talking about now ?

3) No tumor or organs grow to a fully formed human being. But fetuses do. And yes, not extracted ones, but the last time i checked no one argued otherwise.

[Mavorpen]

check, because you are wrong, the court cannot stop this unless it feels some other factor has been introduced, such as misinformation, or fraud.
but lets go deeper, the dependent twin need not even be mentally handicapped to be terminated, if they are young enough.
the quality of life of the surviving twin out weights the intrinsic value of the dependent twin.

In your jurisdiction maybe, but not in mine, which has a less utilitarian approach to life.

How about you tell us what this jurisdiction is, or source this, so we can confirm you're not bullshitting?

[Geilinor]

check, because you are wrong, the court cannot stop this unless it feels some other factor has been introduced, such as misinformation, or fraud.
but lets go deeper, the dependent twin need not even be mentally handicapped to be terminated, if they are young enough.
the quality of life of the surviving twin out weights the intrinsic value of the dependent twin.

In your jurisdiction maybe, but not in mine, which has a less utilitarian approach to life.

You're saying that your jurisdiction prosecutes doctors for not being able to save both conjoined twins?

[The ivain isles]

Yet the intellectually disabled are wards of the state, are human, and afforded their unalienable right to life, even if they are not fully developed mentally and intellectually.

The intellectually disabled don't live inside of fully developed humans. Fetuses do. Like tumors.

They don't live inside, they develop inside, can the intellectually disabled rent a womb?

[The ivain isles]

In your jurisdiction maybe, but not in mine, which has a less utilitarian approach to life.

How about you tell us what this jurisdiction is, or source this, so we can confirm you're not bullshitting?

Ireland.

[Geilinor]

The intellectually disabled don't live inside of fully developed humans. Fetuses do. Like tumors.

They don't live inside, they develop inside, can the intellectually disabled rent a womb?

The woman can revoke consent to the womb.

[Mavorpen]

1) I never said otherwise and zygotes aren't removed from the body in the normal cases, not like sperm or ova. Exceptions are not the norm.

Wrong. In the vast majority of the cases the zygotes are removed from the body and fail to attack to the uterine wall.

[The ivain isles]

In your jurisdiction maybe, but not in mine, which has a less utilitarian approach to life.

You're saying that your jurisdiction prosecutes doctors for not being able to save both conjoined twins?

There's a difference in being unable to save a life, and knowingly terminating a life. So you agree a doctor should be prosecuted if they knowingly terminating a life?

[Solarys]

1) Not without a fetus forming first inside the said mother.

2) It doesn't make it anything other than human if it is a human fetus. They do not become antelopes.

3) Which is basically the same as killing a human being as you are killing something that can fully form into a adult human. It is no different from killing babies. Sure you can argue the sentience/sapience part, but just that doesn't make something human (A.I for eg) and not having that doesn't make its life any less important either, especially if it can grow up to be an actual human being with those qualities.

1)Ok, wasn't arguing that
2)Ok?
3)So can sperm cells. So can eggs.You can pretty much argue that it isn't sapient or sentient, and it hasn't shown it can perform abstract reasoning.
It looks and quacks like a duck, but it's another type of water fowl.

Part of your 3 contradicts with 2.

Also like i said, zygote yes, but sperm cells and ova need to combine first. Sure a zygote/fetus needs to attach itself to the mother's body, but that is different. How ? Perspective matters.

[Geilinor]

You're saying that your jurisdiction prosecutes doctors for not being able to save both conjoined twins?

So you agree a doctor should be prosecuted if they knowingly terminating a life?

Stop extrapolating my statements beyond reason.

[Solarys]

1) I never said otherwise and zygotes aren't removed from the body in the normal cases, not like sperm or ova. Exceptions are not the norm.

Wrong. In the vast majority of the cases the zygotes are removed from the body and fail to attack to the uterine wall.

I am sure this is going to get another one of your idiotic replies, but there is a reason why i added "not like sperm or ova" in there.

[The ivain isles]

They don't live inside, they develop inside, can the intellectually disabled rent a womb?

The woman can revoke consent to the womb.

So if I evict somebody from my property, I can terminate their life if they don't leave fast enough?

[The ivain isles]

So you agree a doctor should be prosecuted if they knowingly terminating a life?

Stop extrapolating my statements beyond reason.

Stop misquoting me and arguing based on an alternate universe.

[Sociobiology]

and zygotes need to implant in the uterine wall


so are most zygotes


so you can ignore it relevancy because of ignorance, nice cop out.



no most tumors are benign, are you saying people should be forced to keep benign tumors?




neither do extracted fetuses

1) I never said otherwise and zygotes aren't removed from the body in the normal cases,

wrong
most zygotes never make implantation

2) It would be easy for you to just link the source. You brought it into discussion. Are you implying that i should google for sources to figure out what you are talking about now ?

you need a source for what cloning is, fine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloning

3) No tumor or organs grow to a fully formed human being. But fetuses do.

most don't

[Mavorpen]

Wrong. In the vast majority of the cases the zygotes are removed from the body and fail to attack to the uterine wall.

I am sure this is going to get another one of your idiotic replies, but there is a reason why i added "not like sperm or ova" in there.

What? Did you even read my post? You stated that Zygotes AREN'T removed from the body in normal cases while sperm or ova are. I said that Zygotes ARE removed from the body in normal cases.

[ALMF]

*snip*

2) not an antelope an vestigial organ: an appendix or kidney.

3) so a haircut is mass murder (Any cell can potentially become a person.)?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but more than half the time, i don't understand what you are trying to say, which side you are on, or what you are arguing about.

One point reaaly:
One premous the probirth movement is dependent on is a the new Blood liable: the premous of fetal individuality. Therefore, believes (and claims) like "a fetus is a person/a human/a baby," "a fetus has an interest" (witch includes "a fetus has rights"), any use of the word killing/murder/homicide in connection with fetuses, et al. are all equavlant to the statement "all kikes must be killed because they use Cristion babes as sacrifices in there rituals." (I forget the attribution, Gerbils many?)

[Aethrys]

I'm in favor of both.

[New Libertarian States]

1)Ok, wasn't arguing that
2)Ok?
3)So can sperm cells. So can eggs.You can pretty much argue that it isn't sapient or sentient, and it hasn't shown it can perform abstract reasoning.
It looks and quacks like a duck, but it's another type of water fowl.

Part of your 3 contradicts with 2.

Also like i said, zygote yes, but sperm cells and ova need to combine first. Sure a zygote/fetus needs to attach itself to the mother's body, but that is different. How ? Perspective matters.

A zygote is combined, and isnt human, sperm cells and eggs are the second part but not combined.

[Sociobiology]

The woman can revoke consent to the womb.

So if I evict somebody from my property, I can terminate their life if they don't leave fast enough?

no, you can however have them removed by force.

with conjoined twins or mother/fetuses, two sets of rights are in conflict, and the surviving twins rights supersede the rights of the dependent one, just as the woman's rights supersede the fetus' rights.