The Main Cause of School Shootings

[Helgrin]

In 2006, Guns Murdered:

18 in Austria
27 in Australia
59 in England & Wales
60 in Spain
190 in Canada
194 in Germany
10,177 in the United States

God Bless America

HOLY SHIT! I knew it was high, but holy shit!

[Der Teutoniker]

Only 10,000??? I thought it would be more than that. I feel safer now!

Heart attacks/high blood pressure kills more Americans than guns do. Are you saying we should ban McDonalds? That would be considered ludacris. People understand the risks they take when they eat fatty fast foods. It's taking that knowledge and using it properly that will prevent the heart attack. The same goes with guns. Knowing how to use it properly will prevent much more than anyone thinks.

Nope, it's still better to strip us of some of our core rights as Americans (this argument is typically taken up by liberals... and didn't they oppose the Patriot Act because it was considered to remove rights? Totally makes sense to me! )

Seriously though, the right to own guns is worth it's cost... it would be nice if the anti-gun people would be proactive calling for gun safety (realistic) instead of calling for gun bans (unrealistic).

[Crysanthemum Lowlands]

In 2006, Guns Murdered:

18 in Austria
27 in Australia
59 in England & Wales
60 in Spain
190 in Canada
194 in Germany
10,177 in the United States

God Bless America

God Bless Hairless Kitten the 2nd.

As I am from the Netherlands myself, many people will boo me for our drug policy. We are the 5th biggest exporting country in Arms, however small we may be.
However, our number of drug addicts is very low, as marihuana is legal, nobody is really enticed to keep smoking. Thousands of tourists come to the Netherlands to get themselves really stoned.
I have smoked pot myself, but it's no big deal to get it; so not very exciting to do. Gun ownership in the Netherlands are just people with the profession that needs it. Carrying a gun in Holland is forbidden
and you will get arrested for it. Of course there are these wackjobs that own guns through the black market. Holland was shocked in 2008 when a student shot his teacher. This was headline news for weeks. Why? Because
we have never seen this kind of incident before. Therefore I commend Hairless Kitten the 2nd.

As I would like to finish with a quote from Eddie Izzard: "The NRA once said: "Guns don't kill people, people do." Well I think the guns help. Not much use running up to someone saying 'Bang'"

[Helgrin]

Only 10,000??? I thought it would be more than that. I feel safer now!

Heart attacks/high blood pressure kills more Americans than guns do. Are you saying we should ban McDonalds? That would be considered ludacris. People understand the risks they take when they eat fatty fast foods. It's taking that knowledge and using it properly that will prevent the heart attack. The same goes with guns. Knowing how to use it properly will prevent much more than anyone thinks.

Nope, it's still better to strip us of some of our core rights as Americans (this argument is typically taken up by liberals... and didn't they oppose the Patriot Act because it was considered to remove rights? Totally makes sense to me! )

Seriously though, the right to own guns is worth it's cost... it would be nice if the anti-gun people would be proactive calling for gun safety (realistic) instead of calling for gun bans (unrealistic).

How about a little restriction. Seeing how that has worked out everywhere else.

[Hairless Kitten II]

So you read 'Europeans aren't less depressive and aggressive as American' as 'Europe has a different mentality as Americans'?

Faut le fair.

I think that Europeans have more or less the same mentality as Americans. We eat the same shit, watch the same shit on TV, listen to the same shit on the radio, we laugh about the same shit and our religious one listen to the same shit in shitty churches every given Sunday.

First off, I don't do french, you could perhaps translate to German for me? (Or English if you really wnat me to understand it).

So if the mentality of Americans and Europeans are the exact same, how can Europeans be less depressed and aggressive? Such a claim does not make sense.

This is depressing.

I don't think that Americans are more or less depressed or aggressive as Europeans.

While there are differences, in general they are more or less the same.

[Kinstantia]

Nope, it's still better to strip us of some of our core rights as Americans (this argument is typically taken up by liberals... and didn't they oppose the Patriot Act because it was considered to remove rights? Totally makes sense to me! )

Seriously though, the right to own guns is worth it's cost... it would be nice if the anti-gun people would be proactive calling for gun safety (realistic) instead of calling for gun bans (unrealistic).

I am a liberal. Even though I believe the 2nd amendment has a serious comma splice that allowed it open to interpretation other than what it was its original meaning was, guns are legal in the United States. The fact that they are legal means we need people to learn proper and safe storage and use of those guns.

Preventing little Timmy from grabbing his granpa's uzi, AK's and shotguns is something that also needs to be addressed.

EDIT: As a side note, keeping a gun isn't something that I am opposed to, just personally I do not own one and will never own one. I do, however, know how to use one and know how to properly store one.

[Der Teutoniker]

Preventing little Timmy from grabbing his granpa's uzi, AK's and shotguns is something that also needs to be addressed.

Agreed. And this, IMO falls under safety. Part of safety means having such devices safely stored. Sure, a gun cabinet probably won't stop a kid, most of them have glass cases, but it's something, and better then being in the nightstand, or something. I think that there are a lot of helpful approaches to be taken. "Ban all teh gunz!" is not a helpful approach.

[Der Teutoniker]

How about a little restriction. Seeing how that has worked out everywhere else.

Good, I will wait patiently while you compile reports from every country for the last twenty years. I want to see definitive documentation that every single nation in the entire world with more restrictive gun laws than the US necessarily have a drastically reduced death-by-gun rate than the US. In addition to thatm you will need to provide documentation showing that countries with similar restrictions as the US do not have lower death-by-gun rates, as well as documention from all of the countries in the world with less restrictive gun laws than the US, showing that they all have severely increased death-by-gun rates.

This is quite a task, but it is, unfortunately, the cost of your otherwise unbased claim. This will probably take you several weeks, or even months, you may TG me with the results when you are done.

EDIT: Also, America does have "a little" restriction on gun ownership.

[Hairless Kitten II]

Only 10,000??? I thought it would be more than that. I feel safer now!

Heart attacks/high blood pressure kills more Americans than guns do. Are you saying we should ban McDonalds? That would be considered ludacris. People understand the risks they take when they eat fatty fast foods. It's taking that knowledge and using it properly that will prevent the heart attack. The same goes with guns. Knowing how to use it properly will prevent much more than anyone thinks.

I wouldn't be proud about that number and have a celebration.

If USA would have similar gun laws as in Germany, it would have about 724 people murdered by guns.

To help you out, that's 14 times less as present times.

[Der Teutoniker]

I wouldn't be proud about that number and have a celebration.

If USA would have similar gun laws as in Germany, it would have about 724 people murdered by guns.

Proof? Hell, I'll even settle for you providing moderate evidence of what would happen if the US did something. And, as you seem to be a psychic, why not go and win the lottery?

[Barringtonia]

How about a little restriction. Seeing how that has worked out everywhere else.

Good, I will wait patiently while you compile reports from every country for the last twenty years. I want to see definitive documentation that every single nation in the entire world with more restrictive gun laws than the US necessarily have a drastically reduced death-by-gun rate than the US. In addition to thatm you will need to provide documentation showing that countries with similar restrictions as the US do not have lower death-by-gun rates, as well as documention from all of the countries in the world with less restrictive gun laws than the US, showing that they all have severely increased death-by-gun rates.

This is quite a task, but it is, unfortunately, the cost of your otherwise unbased claim. This will probably take you several weeks, or even months, you may TG me with the results when you are done.

I doubt it will correlate - and I think you'll all come to the inescapable conclusion that there is something in the US that means when faced with overwhelming frustration, the gun is, for some reason, seen as a solution whereas it's not in other countries.

That reason is culture, a culture where 'justice' is carried out by a man against the world with nothing but his gun.

It's your history, the image upon which your country is founded and celebrated.

[Kinstantia]

Agreed. And this, IMO falls under safety. Part of safety means having such devices safely stored. Sure, a gun cabinet probably won't stop a kid, most of them have glass cases, but it's something, and better then being in the nightstand, or something. I think that there are a lot of helpful approaches to be taken. "Ban all teh gunz!" is not a helpful approach.

Well, ban all the guns isn't the right approach. Banning certain guns, maybe. I can not find a valid reason to own an AK 47, outside of fighting in the military. That's just my opinion, i could be wrong. But, I am getting off point.

I think that there is a serious lack of acceptance of others in the US. That's a big part of the problem. For whatever reason, some kids feel like they don't belong because they don't fit the social norm.

[Hairless Kitten II]

I wouldn't be proud about that number and have a celebration.

If USA would have similar gun laws as in Germany, it would have about 724 people murdered by guns.

Proof? Hell, I'll even settle for you providing moderate evidence of what would happen if the US did something. And, as you seem to be a psychic, why not go and win the lottery?

Proof? That's easy. Look to the kill rates of ALL other countries that have very strict gun laws. I am sure that even you will see the pattern.

It's easy: many guns = many gun murdered people.

[Der Teutoniker]

I think that there is a serious lack of acceptance of others in the US. That's a big part of the problem. For whatever reason, some kids feel like they don't belong because they don't fit the social norm.

I'm not a fan of a lot of cultural nuances of American society. And I think it adds to a lot of problems... is it the sole cause of school shootings? Unlikely. There are a variety of factors, but it seems like the loudest complaints come from people who only want to impose a topical solution that wouldn't really help the overall situation in America. I believe the children who committed the Columbine shootings had home-made bombs as well... outlawing guns is unlikely to stop people from producing explosives, which can be quite a bit more dangerous, as the evolution of explosive devices has shown.

[Der Teutoniker]

Proof? That's easy. Look to the kill rates of ALL other countries that have very strict gun laws. I am sure that even you will see the pattern.

It's easy: many guns = many gun murdered people.

Show them to me... the death-by gun rates of every country in the entire world.

It is not so easy as that equation. There is no necessary logical connection between the two, and you have failed to provide the evidence to connect the two logical arguments.

Remember, you claim it, you prove, I'm not doing your homework for you.

[Der Teutoniker]

I doubt it will correlate - and I think you'll all come to the inescapable conclusion that there is something in the US that means when faced with overwhelming frustration, the gun is, for some reason, seen as a solution whereas it's not in other countries.

That reason is culture, a culture where 'justice' is carried out by a man against the world with nothing but his gun.

It's your history, the image upon which your country is founded and celebrated.

Right. The problem is more than "ZOMG sum peeplz hav gunnz!". It's more than mental disorders, but rather a variety of factors.

[Barringtonia]

I think that there is a serious lack of acceptance of others in the US. That's a big part of the problem. For whatever reason, some kids feel like they don't belong because they don't fit the social norm.

I'm not a fan of a lot of cultural nuances of American society. And I think it adds to a lot of problems... is it the sole cause of school shootings? Unlikely. There are a variety of factors, but it seems like the loudest complaints come from people who only want to impose a topical solution that wouldn't really help the overall situation in America. I believe the children who committed the Columbine shootings had home-made bombs as well... outlawing guns is unlikely to stop people from producing explosives, which can be quite a bit more dangerous, as the evolution of explosive devices has shown.

Take the Columbine people then - one, they weren't bullied, if anything they were bullies themselves. They weren't ostracised other than ostracising themselves.

They did have mental health problems but, as has been pointed out, people have health problems all over the world - why, in the US, do people automatically see reaching for the gun as the solution.

The answer is that this message is put into them from day one, the revolution was individuals standing up to the man, cowboys, John Wayne, Ron Reagan, the idea that a man can stand up to his oppressors cos he got a gun.

Colt Peacemaker - see the insinuation in that, the guns solves the problem.

[Der Teutoniker]

Take the Columbine people then - one, they weren't bullied, if anything they were bullies themselves. They weren't ostracised other than ostracising themselves.

They did have mental health problems but, as has been pointed out, people have health problems all over the world - why, in the US, do people automatically see reaching for the gun as the solution.

The answer is that this message is put into them from day one, the revolution was individuals standing up to the man, cowboys, John Wayne, Ron Reagan, the idea that a man can stand up to his oppressors cos he got a gun.

Colt Peacemaker - see the insinuation in that, the guns solves the problem.

Exactly, and this has been my point from the beginning.

[Barringtonia]

Take the Columbine people then - one, they weren't bullied, if anything they were bullies themselves. They weren't ostracised other than ostracising themselves.

They did have mental health problems but, as has been pointed out, people have health problems all over the world - why, in the US, do people automatically see reaching for the gun as the solution.

The answer is that this message is put into them from day one, the revolution was individuals standing up to the man, cowboys, John Wayne, Ron Reagan, the idea that a man can stand up to his oppressors cos he got a gun.

Colt Peacemaker - see the insinuation in that, the guns solves the problem.

Exactly, and this has been my point from the beginning.

Sure, but then it doesn't mean that the availability of guns is not a factor, if you see an alcoholic, realising that, say, childhood issues is the root cause, doesn't mean you should leave him in an off-license

[Der Teutoniker]

Sure, but then it doesn't mean that the availability of guns is not a factor, if you see an alcoholic, realising that, say, childhood issues is the root cause, doesn't mean you should leave him in an off-license

Oh, of course the availability of guns is a factor... but it certainly isn't the only factor, and I would say it probably isn't even a leading factor. Things like our view of guns, and us not providing enough safety as a community are bigger issues.

[Hairless Kitten II]

Since some suggest that Americans are more depressive & violent as other people, why not stay in USA...

Let's make a top 5 of the states with the highest gun death rates, and let's make a top 5 with the lowest gun death rates.
Then let's check the household gun ownership of those states.

State......................Household Gun Ownership..............Gun Death Rate per 100,000

1 Louisiana................45.6 %......................................19.58
2 Alabama.................57.2 %......................................16.99
3 Alaska...................60.6 %......................................16.38
4 Mississippi..............54.3 %......................................16.38
5 Nevada..................31.5%.......................................16.25

46 New York..............18.1%........................................5.20
47 Connecticut...........16.2%........................................4.95
48 Rhode Island..........13.3%........................................4.43
49 Massachusetts........12.8%........................................3.28
50 Hawaii.................9.7%.........................................2.58

[Der Teutoniker]

Since some suggest that Americans are more depressive & violent as other people, why not stay in USA...

Let's make a top 5 of the states with the highest gun death rates, and let's make a top 5 with the lowest gun death rates.
Then let's check the household gun ownership of those states.

State.......................Household Gun Ownership...............Gun Death Rate per 100,000

1 Louisiana................45.6 %......................................19.58
2 Alabama.................57.2 %......................................16.99
3 Alaska...................60.6 %......................................16.38
4 Mississippi..............54.3 %......................................16.38
5 Nevada..................31.5%.......................................16.25

46 New York..............18.1%........................................5.20
47 Connecticut...........16.2%........................................4.95
48 Rhode Island..........13.3%........................................4.43
49 Massachusetts........12.8%........................................3.28
50 Hawaii.................9.7%.........................................2.58

Hmm, there does seem to be a little correlation there. But it also seems likely that you only posted 20% of the statistics because the otehr 80% didn't necessarily agree with your pre-formed conclusions.

[The Magic Spirit]

The amount of people that die in Columbine-style school-shootings are negligible anyways, so it is not exactly a solid argument against the right to bear arms.

Every single death that occurs is one too many. The fact you have one, means there's a chance you or someone else uses it. Why do you consider your right to have a deathly weapon more important than the lives of human beings?

Unarmed, helpless victims forbidden the right to defend themselves against aggressors.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here, but if you want to have a gun to protect yourself, all you're doing is feed the negative spiral. Defending yourself from aggressors with a gun makes you an aggressor yourself that other people will want to protect themselves from.

[Kinstantia]

Since some suggest that Americans are more depressive & violent as other people, why not stay in USA...

Let's make a top 5 of the states with the highest gun death rates, and let's make a top 5 with the lowest gun death rates.
Then let's check the household gun ownership of those states.

State......................Household Gun Ownership..............Gun Death Rate per 100,000

1 Louisiana................45.6 %......................................19.58
2 Alabama.................57.2 %......................................16.99
3 Alaska...................60.6 %......................................16.38
4 Mississippi..............54.3 %......................................16.38
5 Nevada..................31.5%.......................................16.25

46 New York..............18.1%........................................5.20
47 Connecticut...........16.2%........................................4.95
48 Rhode Island..........13.3%........................................4.43
49 Massachusetts........12.8%........................................3.28
50 Hawaii.................9.7%.........................................2.58

I see a portion of number, but not the complete set. And, I see that there isn't anything other than the numbers present. What are the laws in each state for owning guns? What constitutes gun violence in each state? Is this just shootings that cause death, or death and injuries? I'm not quite sure what I am looking at.

[Helgrin]

How about a little restriction. Seeing how that has worked out everywhere else.

Good, I will wait patiently while you compile reports from every country for the last twenty years. I want to see definitive documentation that every single nation in the entire world with more restrictive gun laws than the US necessarily have a drastically reduced death-by-gun rate than the US. In addition to thatm you will need to provide documentation showing that countries with similar restrictions as the US do not have lower death-by-gun rates, as well as documention from all of the countries in the world with less restrictive gun laws than the US, showing that they all have severely increased death-by-gun rates.

This is quite a task, but it is, unfortunately, the cost of your otherwise unbased claim. This will probably take you several weeks, or even months, you may TG me with the results when you are done.

EDIT: Also, America does have "a little" restriction on gun ownership.

Curious that you post this just after you post something that agrees with me.

Agreed. And this, IMO falls under safety. Part of safety means having such devices safely stored. Sure, a gun cabinet probably won't stop a kid, most of them have glass cases, but it's something, and better then being in the nightstand, or something. I think that there are a lot of helpful approaches to be taken. "Ban all teh gunz!" is not a helpful approach.

Having laws that demand proper storage would create requirements for owners to meet, which would restrict them to responsible owners.