The Main Cause of School Shootings

[Hairless Kitten II]

Europe is having far fewer shooting accidents as USA. Can you tell me why?

Yeah, but have you seen how Europeans drive? I'd rather get hit by a bullet than a Paresian driving around a roundabout!

How many Parisians are using their cars as a weapon to kill their buddies at school?

Heroin is forbidden in most countries, for obvious reasons.
However, more people kill themselves by slipping in the bathroom than by an OD from heroin.

Will we now forbid bathrooms and allow heroin?

[Robarya]

Bullying combined with an aggressive personality and depression in the victim, when it comes to the Columbine-style school shootings, which I assume you are referring to. I don't think that Korean kid was bullied, though, but I'm not sure. His life seems to have sucked either way, since he was a severe Autist that had been alone for his entire life basically.

[Helgrin]

Have there ever been cases of murderous rampages without guns?

[Kinstantia]

How many Parisians are using their cars as a weapon to kill their buddies at school?

Heroin is forbidden in most countries, for obvious reasons.
However, more people kill themselves by slipping in the bathroom than by an OD from heroin.

Will we now forbid bathrooms and allow heroin?

Well, outside of my subtle attempt a humor, I was just making a point that guns don't kill people, people kill people. I say we outlaw people and keep guns legal.

Let's get serious here, it is acceptance that people most want. That's the driving force behind gangs. Sometime people crave it so much that something snaps inside their heads and they believe that people "have to pay for their transgressions."

Outlawing guns isn't going to solve the problem. I can get a gun in the UK, or any other country. Wherever there is a black market, someone can get a gun. Banning guns wouldn't solve the underlying problem. It would just treat the symptom.

If you start banning things because people can use them as weapons to inflict harm and/or kill their fellow human beings, then there wouldn't be much in this big ol world, would there? Cars, guns, knives, forks, lighters, bats, hockey sticks, ice skates, you name it... all weapons if used improperly.

IMPROPERLY! That's it! Maybe if grandpa kept his arsenal locked up correctly, the kid couldn't get his AK 47 and blow away his classmates. Maybe if, somehow, society could teach acceptance, the kid wouldn't want to blow away his classmates in the first place. Maybe instead of trying to protect people from harm, we need to start trying to teach acceptance.

[Hairless Kitten II]

Bullying combined with an aggressive personality and depression in the victim, when it comes to the Columbine-style school shootings, which I assume you are referring to. I don't think that Korean kid was bullied, though, but I'm not sure. His life seems to have sucked either way, since he was a severe Autist that had been alone for his entire life basically.

Less Columbine-style shootings would occur if the gun laws in USA would be similar as in Europe.

Europeans aren't less depressive and aggressive as Americans.

[Hairless Kitten II]

Have there ever been cases of murderous rampages without guns?

Yes. But they are very rare.

[Secristan]

I really disagree with the majority here that this is caused by bullying. Bullying can cause depression and certainly cause low self-esteem and loner-type traits, but does it cause someone to get a gun and shoot up the school? No. Can it be a contributing factor in some cases? Sure. But you're asking for the "main cause" here.

The main cause, in my opinion, is mental illness, and with that unidentified mental illnesses caused by lax/inattentive parenting. There are many parents out there who do want to believe that there child may have a mental handicap, because they are obsessed with that thought and belief that their kid "must be normal". I work with the disabled every day, I see this. I see many parents who have taken the proper steps for their troubled kids, and have talked with them. Through that, we all shared stories of other parents we have seen, the ones that refuse to believe that something could be wrong.

Instead for these kids, the ones that have parents that refuse to believe that there could be a mental illness, they are being told AT HOME that they are not normal or that they need to change their behavior. They then go to schools and demonstrate traits that make them feel as though they do not belong and that everyone is out to get them. These behaviors can also make them easy pickings for the bullies in school. Being told both at home and in school that they are "no good", these kids will probably more likely commit suicide then shoot up the school, but if those feelings then turn to anger they may be the ones to want to make a statement, and doing it at school is a great way to do so, in their minds. Bullying then can play a part, but the main cause, it is not. The main cause boils down to that unidentified or ignored mental illness at home.

Kids who are not mentally ill, but bullied in school are likely to know there is more out there, and can get past the bullying much better. It is highly doubtful to get to the point of shooting up the school if they have the security blanket at home from their parents.

[Robarya]

Bullying combined with an aggressive personality and depression in the victim, when it comes to the Columbine-style school shootings, which I assume you are referring to. I don't think that Korean kid was bullied, though, but I'm not sure. His life seems to have sucked either way, since he was a severe Autist that had been alone for his entire life basically.

Less Columbine-style shootings would occur if the gun laws in USA would be similar as in Europe.

Europeans aren't less depressive and aggressive as Americans.

The amount of people that die in Columbine-style school-shootings are negligible anyways, so it is not exactly a solid argument against the right to bear arms.

[Hairless Kitten II]

How many Parisians are using their cars as a weapon to kill their buddies at school?

Heroin is forbidden in most countries, for obvious reasons.
However, more people kill themselves by slipping in the bathroom than by an OD from heroin.

Will we now forbid bathrooms and allow heroin?

Well, outside of my subtle attempt a humor, I was just making a point that guns don't kill people, people kill people. I say we outlaw people and keep guns legal.

Let's get serious here, it is acceptance that people most want. That's the driving force behind gangs. Sometime people crave it so much that something snaps inside their heads and they believe that people "have to pay for their transgressions."

Outlawing guns isn't going to solve the problem. I can get a gun in the UK, or any other country. Wherever there is a black market, someone can get a gun. Banning guns wouldn't solve the underlying problem. It would just treat the symptom.

If you start banning things because people can use them as weapons to inflict harm and/or kill their fellow human beings, then there wouldn't be much in this big ol world, would there? Cars, guns, knives, forks, lighters, bats, hockey sticks, ice skates, you name it... all weapons if used improperly.

IMPROPERLY! That's it! Maybe if grandpa kept his arsenal locked up correctly, the kid couldn't get his AK 47 and blow away his classmates. Maybe is, somehow, society could team acceptance, the kid wouldn't want to blow away his classmates in the first place. Maybe instead of trying to protect people from harm, we need to start trying to teach acceptance.

Guns aren't illegal in most European countries. You really can buy them legal.
And of course there's a black market too.

However, since it isn't that easy to get a gun, less people have a gun and less shootings occur.

Some people in this thread suggest that 'depression' is the important cause. Well, Belgium is one of the leading countries in depressed people and correlated suicides. However, mass shooting, while they occur, are very very rare.

[Kinstantia]

I am not saying that mental illness doesn't play a part in it, but most of these kids seem to be lacking in friends, for the most part. They seem to be loners, people who don't seem to belong. Maybe the mental illness is part of it, but that's the responsibility of the parents and the schools to identify that.

Sometimes it's not mental illness. Nowadays we diagnose someone with a disease or illness and throw pills at them to regulate their behavior. Maybe the person doesn't fit in because their style and tastes do not fit the social normals that most people do. Maybe they feel alone and rejected because they aren't a mainstream sociological group. Maybe, just maybe, sometimes they just need someone to make them feel that they are liked.

Yeah, sometimes mommy didn't hug them enough as a kid. Yeah, sometimes a bolt snapped in their brain and cause a mental disorder that caused them to turn their classmates into swiss cheese. In that same vein, sometimes kids are just that cruel. Sometimes it is as simple as "no one understands me, no one gets me." Sometimes it just takes a little acceptance, or at least tolerance. Maybe? Or am I just missing the point.

[Kinstantia]

Guns aren't illegal in most European countries. You really can buy them legal.
And of course there's a black market too.

However, since it isn't that easy to get a gun, less people have a gun and less shootings occur.

Some people in this thread suggest that 'depression' is the important cause. Well, Belgium is one of the leading countries in depressed people and correlated suicides. However, mass shooting, while they occur, are very very rare.

Now the debate on waiting periods, background checks and their accuracy, mental stability checks, and that sort of gun control I am in favor of. Making it harder to get a gun would help. However, guns are so prevelant in the United States that there would be a more serious black market than there already is.

I think I would be depressed too if I had to eat brussel sprouts every day. However, Belgium Waffles rock. (ok, bad jokes aside)

I still believe that taking away the mental illness aspect, and the bullying aspect, you still have a large problem with most of these school shooters as being someone who didn't seem to fit into society. That seems to be a recurrent theme. And no one seems to be convincing me otherwise. The argument seems to come back to gun control or gun banning. They tried that with alcohol and that didn't work at all.

[Der Teutoniker]

I think that far more people lost their life due a mass murderer that used a gun compared to a mass murderer that used a car.

How many mass murderers have personally killed all of their victims? Lets say, 100 murders qualifies someone as a mass murderer... how many people in that group have themselves, personally used guns to kill their 100+ people?

Then again, I think when you say "mass murderer" you mean anyone who uses a gun violently, based on your wacky context.

And still the issue that in the US death by gun rate is not exacly leading the list of CoD's (Causes of Death).

[Secristan]

Maybe the mental illness is part of it, but that's the responsibility of the parents.

Exactly. And because it is not happening, the kid is not getting necessary support AT HOME (which is the big point I making here). With that absent, the kid cannot see past the bullying. With it present, the kid knows there is more out there then what happens in school. Therefore that bullied kid isn't (as likely) to shoot up the school. The one that doesn't have the support at home either, is more likely. This stuff has to start at home, with the parents. Bullying is a factor, but not the main cause. There issues at home not being treated properly, is.

[Der Teutoniker]

Bullying combined with an aggressive personality and depression in the victim, when it comes to the Columbine-style school shootings, which I assume you are referring to. I don't think that Korean kid was bullied, though, but I'm not sure. His life seems to have sucked either way, since he was a severe Autist that had been alone for his entire life basically.

Less Columbine-style shootings would occur if the gun laws in USA would be similar as in Europe.

Europeans aren't less depressive and aggressive as Americans.

The Italicized section runs counter to your point. What you are saying is that Europe has a different mentality than Americans, rather than that the gun law differences are the reason, which you seem to normally propogate. So which is it? Or is it both?

[Kinstantia]

Exactly. And because it is not happening, the kid is not getting necessary support AT HOME (which is the big point I making here). With that absent, the kid cannot see past the bullying. With it present, the kid knows there is more out there then what happens in school. Therefore that bullied kid isn't (as likely) to shoot up the school. The one that doesn't have the support at home either, is more likely. This stuff has to start at home, with the parents. Bullying is a factor, but not the main cause. There issues at home not being treated properly, is.

I'm not using bullying in my argument. I am using the cruelty of children in not accepting those that are different than themselves or the "social norm."

[Hairless Kitten II]

Bullying combined with an aggressive personality and depression in the victim, when it comes to the Columbine-style school shootings, which I assume you are referring to. I don't think that Korean kid was bullied, though, but I'm not sure. His life seems to have sucked either way, since he was a severe Autist that had been alone for his entire life basically.

Less Columbine-style shootings would occur if the gun laws in USA would be similar as in Europe.

Europeans aren't less depressive and aggressive as Americans.

The amount of people that die in Columbine-style school-shootings are negligible anyways, so it is not exactly a solid argument against the right to bear arms.

Sure, but there's more too:

* Accidental shootings between kids (but adults too)
* As a tool to 'finish' family fights between partners
* Increase of the kind of criminality where you need a gun. If access to guns is easier, such kind of criminality will occur more too.
* The people that were killed by an gun-armed burglar
* It's easier to commit suicide
* It's enhancing the fear, like having a need for metal detectors in schools
* More shootings by the police, since their suspects are probably carrying and using guns
* Etc...

[Hairless Kitten II]

In 2006, Guns Murdered:

18 in Austria
27 in Australia
59 in England & Wales
60 in Spain
190 in Canada
194 in Germany
10,177 in the United States

God Bless America

[Der Teutoniker]

Sure, but there's more too:

* Accidental shootings between kids (but adults too)
* As a tool to 'finish' family fights between partners
* Increase of the kind of criminality where you need a gun. If access to guns is easier, such kind of criminality will occur more too.
* The people that were killed by an gun-armed burglar
* It's easier to commit suicide
* It's enhancing the fear, like having a need for metal detectors in schools
* More shootings by the police, since their suspects are probably carrying and using guns
* Etc...

I actually think that American society's artificial fear of guns is a bigger issue than legitimate fears based on legalization of gun ownership. If the wackos accepted that guns =|= satan then I think conditions could vastly improve. Instead of whining that no one anywhere should ever have guns, perhaps try teaching your children gun safety even if you don't believe in gun ownership, you owe your children, and your community that much at the very least.

[Secristan]

Exactly. And because it is not happening, the kid is not getting necessary support AT HOME (which is the big point I making here). With that absent, the kid cannot see past the bullying. With it present, the kid knows there is more out there then what happens in school. Therefore that bullied kid isn't (as likely) to shoot up the school. The one that doesn't have the support at home either, is more likely. This stuff has to start at home, with the parents. Bullying is a factor, but not the main cause. There issues at home not being treated properly, is.

I'm not using bullying in my argument. I am using the cruelty of children in not accepting those that are different than themselves or the "social norm."

That is usually what leads to someone being a target of bullying, though.
Talking just about that factor that you mention, however, I would have to rate that ahead of bullying but something much more difficult to control.

[Der Teutoniker]

snip

And countries that are not able to have widespread automotives have far fewer death-by-auto rates than a country like America. Additionally, America has a larger population than all of those countries, correct?

[Robarya]

Sure, but there's more too:

* Accidental shootings between kids (but adults too)
* As a tool to 'finish' family fights between partners
* Increase of the kind of criminality where you need a gun. If access to guns is easier, such kind of criminality will occur more too.
* The people that were killed by an gun-armed burglar
* It's easier to commit suicide
* It's enhancing the fear, like having a need for metal detectors in schools
* More shootings by the police, since their suspects are probably carrying and using guns
* Etc...

Accidents, family fights and suicides involving guns are unfortunate, but still not any real problem. When it comes to criminality, criminals don't use legal guns because they can be traced easily by law enforcement. It is however possible that a criminal uses a legal gun that he has stolen, but there are laws to have adequate lockers for the weapons to prevent that from happening.

[Hairless Kitten II]

Bullying combined with an aggressive personality and depression in the victim, when it comes to the Columbine-style school shootings, which I assume you are referring to. I don't think that Korean kid was bullied, though, but I'm not sure. His life seems to have sucked either way, since he was a severe Autist that had been alone for his entire life basically.

Less Columbine-style shootings would occur if the gun laws in USA would be similar as in Europe.

Europeans aren't less depressive and aggressive as Americans.

The Italicized section runs counter to your point. What you are saying is that Europe has a different mentality than Americans, rather than that the gun law differences are the reason, which you seem to normally propogate. So which is it? Or is it both?

So you read 'Europeans aren't less depressive and aggressive as American' as 'Europe has a different mentality as Americans'?

Faut le fair.

I think that Europeans have more or less the same mentality as Americans. We eat the same shit, watch the same shit on TV, listen to the same shit on the radio, we laugh about the same shit and our religious one listen to the same shit in shitty churches every given Sunday.

[Kinstantia]

Only 10,000??? I thought it would be more than that. I feel safer now!

Heart attacks/high blood pressure kills more Americans than guns do. Are you saying we should ban McDonalds? That would be considered ludacris. People understand the risks they take when they eat fatty fast foods. It's taking that knowledge and using it properly that will prevent the heart attack. The same goes with guns. Knowing how to use it properly will prevent much more than anyone thinks.

[Der Teutoniker]

So you read 'Europeans aren't less depressive and aggressive as American' as 'Europe has a different mentality as Americans'?

Faut le fair.

I think that Europeans have more or less the same mentality as Americans. We eat the same shit, watch the same shit on TV, listen to the same shit on the radio, we laugh about the same shit and our religious one listen to the same shit in shitty churches every given Sunday.

First off, I don't do french, you could perhaps translate to German for me? (Or English if you really wnat me to understand it).

So if the mentality of Americans and Europeans are the exact same, how can Europeans be less depressed and aggressive? Such a claim does not make sense.

[Hairless Kitten II]

snip

And countries that are not able to have widespread automotives have far fewer death-by-auto rates than a country like America. Additionally, America has a larger population than all of those countries, correct?

Sure.

Take Germany 82,329,758 people, 194 murdered by guns in 1996

Let's look to USA...

USA is having 307,212,123 people, 10,177 murdered by guns in 1996

I'm sure you can do the maths on your own...