Transhumanism: What's your take on it?

[Tamoi]

I'd be quite happy with this position if it weren't that such large social changes tend to preclude other methods. Look at currency, it's next to impossible to live without it nowadays. The only people I know who have done without it were the monks, who have a legal buffer surrounding them and other people who deal with that for them, and homesteaders who have lived in seclusion on logging land for a couple years, which is illegal. Or take electricity. How many people do you know without electricity? And more and more places are requiring telephone numbers and sometimes even emails to sign up for things like post office boxes and bank accounts. Until the point that the right to self determination and the everyman's right and some sort of plan like Russia's to set asside a certain areas of land for traditional life only have widespread acceptance, then I can't be content with this position.
Right to self determination: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
Everyman's right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everyman%27s_right
Russia's traditional land program: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_ ... source_Use

Most people aren't luddites, unlike you, and we are not going to let luddites determine our future.

In the four-town group in Maine I live in with a population of 800 combined, I personally know twenty families who are homesteaders. Far from a majourity, but still a sizeable number, you'd be surprised how many people live this way. And providing one's own fruits vegetables and meats is standard practice by everyone down here, not just off-gridders.
But regardless, what is the problem with giving people a choice?
Allow people to provide for themselves/be self sufficient in any manner in whole or part without impositional interference, and allow people to modify themselves in any manner in whole or in part, without impositional interference.

[Antares XII]

I think I've bitched about this enough.

I don't even want to get too deeply involved in a discussion, because every time I try the huge majority of transhumanists (why the hell are there so many of you here?) tear me a new one because I would object to having a metal arm and a microchip in my brain.

I would rather be an object having a metal arm and have my brain in a microchip.

Also, consider this: Someone eventually devises both a) foolproof / affordable BCIs and b) sufficiently advanced VR.

1. Upload self into massive computer matrix
2. Create virtual computer highly similar to the one in which self now resides
3. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

With this, time dilation becomes a real observable effect, and we have exponentially more relative time to solve pretty much every problem in the universe ever, including how to get out of the universe, how to reverse entropy, how to extend the lifespan of the universe, and / or how to make a new universe.

Also Greg Bear. <3

[Zyx]

Just because something is natural does not mean it is better. I am all for transhumanism.

[Vetalia]

Then apply your logic to fears of a permanent elite economic class being effectively invulnerable to competition. You've replaced economic socialism with biological socialism.

The difference is that an elite economic class can still be overthrown by their subjects because they're ultimately as human as those over whom they rule. Unchecked transhumanism will create an elite so completely superior to unmodified humans that any possibility of countering their power is negligible, barring the intervention of some sort of unforseen calamity that only affects the enhanced. If "biological socialism" as you describe it at least preserves the possibility of human talent and merit overcoming adversity, then I'm all for it.

[Umbra Ac Silentium]

I think I've bitched about this enough.

I don't even want to get too deeply involved in a discussion, because every time I try the huge majority of transhumanists (why the hell are there so many of you here?) tear me a new one because I would object to having a metal arm and a microchip in my brain.

I would rather be an object having a metal arm and have my brain in a microchip.

Also, consider this: Someone eventually devises both a) foolproof / affordable BCIs and b) sufficiently advanced VR.

1. Upload self into massive computer matrix
2. Create virtual computer highly similar to the one in which self now resides
3. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

With this, time dilation becomes a real observable effect, and we have exponentially more relative time to solve pretty much every problem in the universe ever, including how to get out of the universe, how to reverse entropy, how to extend the lifespan of the universe, and / or how to make a new universe.

Also Greg Bear. <3

Didn't he write a story called Blood Music? That's my favorite story ever :3

[Esternial]

I think I've bitched about this enough.

I don't even want to get too deeply involved in a discussion, because every time I try the huge majority of transhumanists (why the hell are there so many of you here?) tear me a new one because I would object to having a metal arm and a microchip in my brain.

I would rather be an object having a metal arm and have my brain in a microchip.

Also, consider this: Someone eventually devises both a) foolproof / affordable BCIs and b) sufficiently advanced VR.

1. Upload self into massive computer matrix
2. Create virtual computer highly similar to the one in which self now resides
3. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

With this, time dilation becomes a real observable effect, and we have exponentially more relative time to solve pretty much every problem in the universe ever, including how to get out of the universe, how to reverse entropy, how to extend the lifespan of the universe, and / or how to make a new universe.

Also Greg Bear. <3

Of all my organs, I wouldn't replace my brain. It's so intricate and complex that I doubt anything else will be able to contain my entire being as efficiently. I'd rather encase it in a reinforced body.

[Azelkaeth]

What if mental augmentation becomes possible, increasing your cognitive powers to previously unheard of levels. Thus leaving everyone not augmented a drooling moron in comparison. What do you do if people start augmentation their pets, so you have a load of uber cyborg dog parrots about, who are as smart (or moreso) as baseline humans?
That would make a pretty cool setting for a rpg.

[The Emerald Legion]

Then apply your logic to fears of a permanent elite economic class being effectively invulnerable to competition. You've replaced economic socialism with biological socialism.

The difference is that an elite economic class can still be overthrown by their subjects because they're ultimately as human as those over whom they rule. Unchecked transhumanism will create an elite so completely superior to unmodified humans that any possibility of countering their power is negligible, barring the intervention of some sort of unforseen calamity that only affects the enhanced. If "biological socialism" as you describe it at least preserves the possibility of human talent and merit overcoming adversity, then I'm all for it.

... So, you're scared of transhumanism because it would allow the rich to buy talent and merit, because you want to preserve the possibility of talent and Merit overcoming the rich's advantage.

That... I.. what?

[Esternial]

Most people aren't luddites, unlike you, and we are not going to let luddites determine our future.

In the four-town group in Maine I live in with a population of 800 combined, I personally know twenty families who are homesteaders. Far from a majourity, but still a sizeable number, you'd be surprised how many people live this way. And providing one's own fruits vegetables and meats is standard practice by everyone down here, not just off-gridders.
But regardless, what is the problem with giving people a choice?
Allow people to provide for themselves/be self sufficient in any manner in whole or part without impositional interference, and allow people to modify themselves in any manner in whole or in part, without impositional interference.

In our current society everyone has their own speciality, and we exchange services in exchange for currency.

Your idea is primitive and only works to a minor extent. Our society can't run on such crappy, outdated concepts.

[Luveria]

Then apply your logic to fears of a permanent elite economic class being effectively invulnerable to competition. You've replaced economic socialism with biological socialism.

The difference is that an elite economic class can still be overthrown by their subjects because they're ultimately as human as those over whom they rule.

Modifying your body makes you less human? Having a superior ability makes someone less human? Do you hate people naturally smarter than others since no one can ever hope to reach their level of intellect?

Unchecked transhumanism will create an elite so completely superior to unmodified humans that any possibility of countering their power is negligible

Provide a source for why it's guaranteed to lead to that and I don't think anyone here is advocating 'unchecked' transhumanism. You're just against people gaining increased abilities through technological enhancements but you only seem to apply your argument to transhumanism and not any number of other technological benefits.

If "biological socialism" as you describe it at least preserves the possibility of human talent and merit overcoming adversity, then I'm all for it.

And you prove you're no different than a communist trying to force everyone to be 'equally wealthy'. You're all for preserving human weakness and preventing progress.

[Vetalia]

So it's not the technology you're afraid of but it's your belief it will lead to the creation of an oppressive, feudal oligarchy. Do you mean like fears of the increasingly advanced surveillance technology available leading to the world becoming like Orwell's 1984? Apply your irrational fears consistently or not at all.

Well, yes, I'm concerned about that as well...defending privacy rights is important and essential to ensuring these technologies don't become a means for mass control and oppression. Every technology has to be carefully considered regarding its potential consequences and if need be restricted to preserve the rights and freedoms of the people in any society.

You mean like how the rich by virtue of their wealth have an insurmountable edge over the poor?

The wealthy have been overthrown by the poor time and again throughout history because in the end, they were just as human as the people they ruled over...change that by making them insurmountable in terms of ability and they will not be easily defeated, any more than a bunch of pigs can overthrow a farmer.

[Antares XII]

I would rather be an object having a metal arm and have my brain in a microchip.

Also, consider this: Someone eventually devises both a) foolproof / affordable BCIs and b) sufficiently advanced VR.

1. Upload self into massive computer matrix
2. Create virtual computer highly similar to the one in which self now resides
3. Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

With this, time dilation becomes a real observable effect, and we have exponentially more relative time to solve pretty much every problem in the universe ever, including how to get out of the universe, how to reverse entropy, how to extend the lifespan of the universe, and / or how to make a new universe.

Also Greg Bear. <3

Didn't he write a story called Blood Music? That's my favorite story ever :3

I haven't read that one! I was actually referencing Forge of God and Eon. I love the Way series.

[Esternial]

Provide a source for why it's guaranteed to lead to that and I don't think anyone here is advocating 'unchecked' transhumanism. You're just against people gaining increased abilities through technological enhancements but you only seem to apply your argument to transhumanism and not any number of other technological benefits.

Actually, it'll become available to those who can afford it, thus creating an elite - those with money.

Today only those with money can afford gene therapy, artificial insemination and soforth. Why would it be any different for other enhancements/modifications?

[Athylon Prime]

I am definitely for transhumanism, but, alas, there will always be people who are so excruciatingly dim witted, bigoted, and scared of change that they will slow advancement down to a crawl. See Spanish Inquisition and Dark Ages

[Umbra Ac Silentium]

Didn't he write a story called Blood Music? That's my favorite story ever :3

:O I haven't read that one! I was actually referencing Forge of God and Eon. I love the Way series.

Do it, it's an amazing story. I had goosebumps from reading it~

[Luveria]

Provide a source for why it's guaranteed to lead to that and I don't think anyone here is advocating 'unchecked' transhumanism. You're just against people gaining increased abilities through technological enhancements but you only seem to apply your argument to transhumanism and not any number of other technological benefits.

Actually, it'll become available to those who can afford it, thus creating an elite - those with money.

New technology is often expensive and thus limited to those with the wealth to afford it. It doesn't mean the technology is bad or should be restricted. Only the wealthy could afford computers at first and now they are commonly available. Same thing with mobile phones.

Why would it be any different for other enhancements/modifications?

Exactly. Why would it be? Why wouldn't the technology become safer, more affordable, and more commonly in use over time?

[NVADF]

So it's not the technology you're afraid of but it's your belief it will lead to the creation of an oppressive, feudal oligarchy. Do you mean like fears of the increasingly advanced surveillance technology available leading to the world becoming like Orwell's 1984? Apply your irrational fears consistently or not at all.

Well, yes, I'm concerned about that as well...defending privacy rights is important and essential to ensuring these technologies don't become a means for mass control and oppression. Every technology has to be carefully considered regarding its potential consequences and if need be restricted to preserve the rights and freedoms of the people in any society.

You mean like how the rich by virtue of their wealth have an insurmountable edge over the poor?

The wealthy have been overthrown by the poor time and again throughout history because in the end, they were just as human as the people they ruled over...change that by making them insurmountable in terms of ability and they will not be easily defeated, any more than a bunch of pigs can overthrow a farmer.

If transhumanists were to make themselves immesurably more intelligent to normal humans, why would they need humans as slaves? Why couldn't they create machines to answer their every need?

[Trollgaard]

The difference is that an elite economic class can still be overthrown by their subjects because they're ultimately as human as those over whom they rule.

Modifying your body makes you less human? Having a superior ability makes someone less human? Do you hate people naturally smarter than others since no one can ever hope to reach their level of intellect?

Unchecked transhumanism will create an elite so completely superior to unmodified humans that any possibility of countering their power is negligible

Provide a source for why it's guaranteed to lead to that and I don't think anyone here is advocating 'unchecked' transhumanism. You're just against people gaining increased abilities through technological enhancements but you only seem to apply your argument to transhumanism and not any number of other technological benefits.

If "biological socialism" as you describe it at least preserves the possibility of human talent and merit overcoming adversity, then I'm all for it.

And you prove you're no different than a communist trying to force everyone to be 'equally wealthy'. You're all for preserving human weakness and preventing progress.

Oh give me a break. Human weakness? Progress? That's a progress no sane person should want any part of. People are good enough, as is. We number close to 7 billion, and are the apex species of this planet. Transhumanism threatens humans apex status, and its survival. Its one of the most dangerous ideologies ever concieved of. I'd rather the world be taken over by the "Islamo-fascists" of certain people's nightmares than have transhumansim continue like most of you deluded folk want.

[Tamoi]

In the four-town group in Maine I live in with a population of 800 combined, I personally know twenty families who are homesteaders. Far from a majourity, but still a sizeable number, you'd be surprised how many people live this way. And providing one's own fruits vegetables and meats is standard practice by everyone down here, not just off-gridders.
But regardless, what is the problem with giving people a choice?
Allow people to provide for themselves/be self sufficient in any manner in whole or part without impositional interference, and allow people to modify themselves in any manner in whole or in part, without impositional interference.

In our current society everyone has their own speciality, and we exchange services in exchange for currency.

Your idea is primitive and only works to a minor extent. Our society can't run on such crappy, outdated concepts.

It works well in the context it came about in, and that is a context I and my friends and many of my neihbours wish to live in, but there are too many socially and legally imposed restraints to it, despite the fact that each of us is capable of providing all the shelter, food, clothing, and firewood we need from raw resources, and don't impose upon anyone else. It works for us, why must we be forced to participate in another system?
It worked well enough for the past 3.4 million years of human existence (since the use of blades as tools). Clearly a society can run on these concepts, just the present Western one does not. It is primitive, that's the point. That's not a bad thing. Why else would insects be the dominant taxon on the planet? (Or bacteria)

[Luveria]

Modifying your body makes you less human? Having a superior ability makes someone less human? Do you hate people naturally smarter than others since no one can ever hope to reach their level of intellect?


Provide a source for why it's guaranteed to lead to that and I don't think anyone here is advocating 'unchecked' transhumanism. You're just against people gaining increased abilities through technological enhancements but you only seem to apply your argument to transhumanism and not any number of other technological benefits.


And you prove you're no different than a communist trying to force everyone to be 'equally wealthy'. You're all for preserving human weakness and preventing progress.

Oh give me a break. Human weakness? Progress? That's a progress no sane person should want any part of. People are good enough, as is. We number close to 7 billion, and are the apex species of this planet. Transhumanism threatens humans apex status, and its survival. Its one of the most dangerous ideologies ever concieved of. I'd rather the world be taken over by the "Islamo-fascists" of certain people's nightmares than have transhumansim continue like most of you deluded folk want.

I'm not giving you a break. You're scared of technology which could improve lives. Trashumanist progress is progress I hope to be a part of when the technology is available. Why do you hate personal choice?

[NVADF]

Modifying your body makes you less human? Having a superior ability makes someone less human? Do you hate people naturally smarter than others since no one can ever hope to reach their level of intellect?


Provide a source for why it's guaranteed to lead to that and I don't think anyone here is advocating 'unchecked' transhumanism. You're just against people gaining increased abilities through technological enhancements but you only seem to apply your argument to transhumanism and not any number of other technological benefits.


And you prove you're no different than a communist trying to force everyone to be 'equally wealthy'. You're all for preserving human weakness and preventing progress.

Oh give me a break. Human weakness? Progress? That's a progress no sane person should want any part of. People are good enough, as is. We number close to 7 billion, and are the apex species of this planet. Transhumanism threatens humans apex status, and its survival. Its one of the most dangerous ideologies ever concieved of. I'd rather the world be taken over by the "Islamo-fascists" of certain people's nightmares than have transhumansim continue like most of you deluded folk want.

Why would it threaten our position as a species? No one would want to be modified to become inferior.

[Esternial]

Actually, it'll become available to those who can afford it, thus creating an elite - those with money.

New technology is often expensive and thus limited to those with the wealth to afford it. It doesn't mean the technology is bad or should be restricted. Only the wealthy could afford computers at first and now they are commonly available. Same thing with mobile phones.

Why would it be any different for other enhancements/modifications?

Exactly. Why would it be? Why wouldn't the technology become safer, more affordable, and more commonly in use over time?

It is reasonable to expect that the first couple of years - if not decades - will give rise to an elite as prices slowly drop.

We assume they will, but comparing mobile phones to things like genetic therapy isn't that simple. Acquiring products to work with costs a fortune in the biotech industry. For example, you pay 500 euro's for 10 µl of antibodies. The resources needed for things like genetic therapy are very expensive because of a variety of reasons, one being the manual labour required for it. Some processes can't always be done by a machine.

[Trollgaard]

Oh give me a break. Human weakness? Progress? That's a progress no sane person should want any part of. People are good enough, as is. We number close to 7 billion, and are the apex species of this planet. Transhumanism threatens humans apex status, and its survival. Its one of the most dangerous ideologies ever concieved of. I'd rather the world be taken over by the "Islamo-fascists" of certain people's nightmares than have transhumansim continue like most of you deluded folk want.

I'm not giving you a break. You're scared of technology which could improve lives. Trashumanist progress is progress I hope to be a part of when the technology is available. Why do you hate personal choice?

Your choice threatens me, therefore you shouldn't be able to choose it. Life's a fucking bitch, ain't it?

[Umbra Ac Silentium]

I'm not giving you a break. You're scared of technology which could improve lives. Trashumanist progress is progress I hope to be a part of when the technology is available. Why do you hate personal choice?

Your choice threatens me

[citation needed]

[Esternial]

Oh give me a break. Human weakness? Progress? That's a progress no sane person should want any part of. People are good enough, as is. We number close to 7 billion, and are the apex species of this planet. Transhumanism threatens humans apex status, and its survival. Its one of the most dangerous ideologies ever concieved of. I'd rather the world be taken over by the "Islamo-fascists" of certain people's nightmares than have transhumansim continue like most of you deluded folk want.

I'm not giving you a break. You're scared of technology which could improve lives. Trashumanist progress is progress I hope to be a part of when the technology is available. Why do you hate personal choice?

There already IS some of this technology available...

Such as gene therapy, which I've mentioned several times. Can be used to knock out bad genes from unborn children to avoid birth defects, among other things.