Transhumanism: What's your take on it?

[Esternial]

You underestimate the human brain, padawan.

And you underestimate the potential of technology.

I do, I won't deny that.

[Regnum Dominae]

You underestimate the human brain, padawan.

And you underestimate the potential of technology.

40 years ago, who would have thought that this website could exist...

[Natapoc]

(Image)
Assuming that this trend continues, we will soon have computers that can perfectly simulate the neural networks of a human brain, allowing us to gain a much deeper understanding of how it works.

You underestimate the human brain, padawan.

And overestimate computers. I've written papers, published in peer reviewed journals on the topic of computational and artificial intelligence techniques. I know what the "state of the art" is and it's so pathetically far behind what even a insect can accomplish.

That does not mean we can't learn from simulations. On the contrary we can learn a lot by testing out theoretical models on how cells interact. It just means we're not even close to a perfect simulation of the brain. Not even slightly close.

[Luveria]

1. Technology keeps improving so it's not that far-fetched it can go from giving blind people the ability to partially see, to someday being technology that gives better eyesight than a human eye.
2. It entirely relates to your statement aobut great leaps of imagination that make great SIFI.

Don't we all. Except the anti-transhumanists.

1. Some technology has been improving. There is no guarantee that it will continue to do so nor is there any certainty that the type of world advocated by transhumanists will come to fruition.
2. It does not relate at all. I said transhumanists often make statements and claims that would be great sifi. Where do you get oligarchy out of that?

So you want to one day be an immortal robot cyborg? See that's my issue with trans-humanists. How can I take seriously a movement like that?

1. No there certainly isn't a guarantee.
2. Because in this thread it has been stated multiple times by anti-transhumanists that such technology would give rise a feudal oligarchy. I compare that to your statement about great sifi.

1. Some technology has been improving. There is no guarantee that it will continue to do so nor is there any certainty that the type of world advocated by transhumanists will come to fruition.
2. It does not relate at all. I said transhumanists often make statements and claims that would be great sifi. Where do you get oligarchy out of that?

So you want to one day be an immortal robot cyborg? See that's my issue with trans-humanists. How can I take seriously a movement like that?

I really wasn't being serious.

Neither was I. I mean it sure would be nice to be an immortal robot cyborg but to think such a thing is going to happen is ridiculous.

[The Steel Magnolia]

The same way you can take seriously any other movement.

There are lots of movements I don't take seriously.

Anarchism, libertarianism, communism...

[Trotskylvania]

The transhumanist "movement", if you can call it that, tends to be filled with all manner of science woo.

At this point, most of what transhumanists strive for has just barely crossed the threshold from pure science fiction to "maybe, someday, we could get the basic mechanics down, but don't get your hopes up for major practical implementation."

Mechanical implants, maybe. But geneitc engineering is still advancing.

There is little reason to believe that there will be radical improvements in human capacity through genetic engineering. Sure, there could be definite "quality of life" type improvements (weight management, propensity for cancer and other afflictions that have genetic components), but there is as of yet no real evidence to suggest that through genetic engineering alone we could produce people who are past the current human ability peak in say intelligence, strength, dexterity, etc. We could move the average closer to the peak, but the peaks are not likely to move much.

[Regnum Dominae]

And you underestimate the potential of technology.

I do, I won't deny that.

Whenever you doubt the powerful of technological advancement, just remember this:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"
-Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943

And now there are five devices that could be classed as "computer" inside my living room right now: Laptop, desktop, cell phone, iPod, iPad.

Also, a more modern example: 15 years ago who would have ever thought that we would need 100GB hard drives? Now I have 10TB of hard drives and I have run out of space yet again.

[Natapoc]

And you underestimate the potential of technology.

40 years ago, who would have thought that this website could exist...

Answer: Any person knowledgeable about computers and working in the industry at a product development level who actually understood what they were doing.

[Olivaero]

Naive magical thinking by people who have difficulty coming to terms with their humanity and want to live forever, seeing technology as a type of "eternal life" and having more faith than most religious people in a technical future that's mostly fiction at this point and may or may not materialize.

What in the fuck? I expected the posts from Trollgrad about how it will destroy the human race but what the hell? What makes you think integrating technology with biology is "magical thinking"? The human body is a just a combination of chemicals how can anyone who accepts rational thinking believe we can't interpret how it works and interface with it?

[Esternial]

Mechanical implants, maybe. But geneitc engineering is still advancing.

There is little reason to believe that there will be radical improvements in human capacity through genetic engineering. Sure, there could be definite "quality of life" type improvements (weight management, propensity for cancer and other afflictions that have genetic components), but there is as of yet no real evidence to suggest that through genetic engineering alone we could produce people who are past the current human ability peak in say intelligence, strength, dexterity, etc. We could move the average closer to the peak, but the peaks are not likely to move much.

Strenght doesn't seem unlikely. There's a gene that results in people building up muscle faster. An indirect result would be augmentation of strength through less effort.

[Trollgaard]

I do, I won't deny that.

Whenever you doubt the powerful of technological advancement, just remember this:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"
-Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943

Also, a more modern example: 15 years ago who would have ever thought that we would need 100GB hard drives? Now I have 10TB of hard drives and I have run out of space yet again.

God damn, how much useless shit do you have on your computer?! My god, that's entirely too much stuff...

[Trollgaard]

Naive magical thinking by people who have difficulty coming to terms with their humanity and want to live forever, seeing technology as a type of "eternal life" and having more faith than most religious people in a technical future that's mostly fiction at this point and may or may not materialize.

What in the fuck? I expected the posts from Trollgrad about how it will destroy the human race but what the hell? What makes you think integrating technology with biology is "magical thinking"? The human body is a just a combination of chemicals how can anyone who accepts rational thinking believe we can't interpret how it works and interface with it?

Haha, I was expected!

[Luveria]

Whenever you doubt the powerful of technological advancement, just remember this:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"
-Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943

Also, a more modern example: 15 years ago who would have ever thought that we would need 100GB hard drives? Now I have 10TB of hard drives and I have run out of space yet again.

God damn, how much useless shit do you have on your computer?! My god, that's entirely too much stuff...

Porn can take up quite a lot of space.

[Regnum Dominae]

Whenever you doubt the powerful of technological advancement, just remember this:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"
-Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943

Also, a more modern example: 15 years ago who would have ever thought that we would need 100GB hard drives? Now I have 10TB of hard drives and I have run out of space yet again.

God damn, how much useless shit do you have on your computer?! My god, that's entirely too much stuff...

I'm a hoarder both digitally and in real life. I compulsively cannot delete things, no matter how useless they are. So I still have every single file I have ever had since my first computer in 2001.
Not to mention that as my extended family's unofficial IT person, I have backup files of half a dozen computers on there.

[New Acardia]

EVIL WACKJOBS

[Regnum Dominae]

EVIL WACKJOBS

[Luveria]

EVIL WACKJOBS

The technology haters? I agree.

[The Emerald Legion]

Naive magical thinking by people who have difficulty coming to terms with their humanity and want to live forever, seeing technology as a type of "eternal life" and having more faith than most religious people in a technical future that's mostly fiction at this point and may or may not materialize.

Please explain to me how "The belief that science and technology could be used to improve upon the human bodies design." is magical thinking? If anything it's the opposite. Disagreeing with it requires magical thinking... not agreeing.

[Natapoc]

I do, I won't deny that.

Whenever you doubt the powerful of technological advancement, just remember this:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"
-Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943

And now there are five devices that could be classed as "computer" inside my living room right now: Laptop, desktop, cell phone, iPod, iPad.

Also, a more modern example: 15 years ago who would have ever thought that we would need 100GB hard drives? Now I have 10TB of hard drives and I have run out of space yet again.

So the marketing guy at IBM was talking about his opinions on markets. That has nothing at all to do with the possibilities of the technologies involved and understanding how they could work. That said, there have been incredible advancements since 1943.

[Olivaero]

Whenever you doubt the powerful of technological advancement, just remember this:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"
-Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943

Also, a more modern example: 15 years ago who would have ever thought that we would need 100GB hard drives? Now I have 10TB of hard drives and I have run out of space yet again.

God damn, how much useless shit do you have on your computer?! My god, that's entirely too much stuff...

Try capturing audio visual streams whilst playing games for like 2 hours, you do this often enough and store the files on your computer you'll see the need for 10tb hard drives

EDIT:

What in the fuck? I expected the posts from Trollgrad about how it will destroy the human race but what the hell? What makes you think integrating technology with biology is "magical thinking"? The human body is a just a combination of chemicals how can anyone who accepts rational thinking believe we can't interpret how it works and interface with it?

Haha, I was expected!

Hell I almost have respect for you than Natapoc at least you acknowledge it as a real thing to be against even if you consider it absolutely amoral.

[Napkiraly]

I'm in favour of it. Whether the singularity stuff spouted by Kurweil and his ilk will come about I'm more skeptical about. It would be cool to have some cybernetic augmentations though.

[Esternial]

I do, I won't deny that.

Whenever you doubt the powerful of technological advancement, just remember this:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"
-Thomas J. Watson, Chairman of IBM, 1943

And now there are five devices that could be classed as "computer" inside my living room right now: Laptop, desktop, cell phone, iPod, iPad.

Also, a more modern example: 15 years ago who would have ever thought that we would need 100GB hard drives? Now I have 10TB of hard drives and I have run out of space yet again.

Sure, I just don't believe there would be anything capable of replicating the processes of the human brain in our near future.

Maybe acquire the same processing power, but not the mechanisms that make up it's internal architecture.

[Trollgaard]

God damn, how much useless shit do you have on your computer?! My god, that's entirely too much stuff...

I'm a hoarder both digitally and in real life. I compulsively cannot delete things, no matter how useless they are.
Not to mention that as my extended family's unofficial IT person, I have backup files of half a dozen computers on there.

I have nothing that needs backing up, as I don't use a computer for work, and have hard copies of all my music...100TB, that's...insane.

[Regnum Dominae]

I'm a hoarder both digitally and in real life. I compulsively cannot delete things, no matter how useless they are.
Not to mention that as my extended family's unofficial IT person, I have backup files of half a dozen computers on there.

I have nothing that needs backing up, as I don't use a computer for work, and have hard copies of all my music...100TB, that's...insane.

10. Not 100.
I agree that 100 would be insane right now. In 10 years, not so much.

[Trotskylvania]

Transhumanists' central philosophical problem, which seems to be quite typified by this thread, is the inherent problem of extrapolating future conditions based on present trends.



Absent a serious understanding of the complete mechanics of the speculative technologies they propose, and the long litany of necessary steps needed to reach there, the extrapolation argument amounts to a lot of handwaving.

Moore's Law is a casual observation about the capabilities of integrated circuits in the consumer products market. It is not a scientific law. And the technology it seeks to track has likely already begun reaching diminishing returns. Which is why computing has required an overwhelming turn to parellelization and neural networks to squeeze more juice out of conventional silicon computers. And absent a radical paradigm shift to a different method of computing, silicon will reach fundamental physical limits in the near future, and it will no longer be possible to further miniaturize transistors.