The Economist Says Affirmative Action Is Bad Unsurprise

[Restaured France]

I have been talking about it in another topic :

-Remember that racism is an idelogy that says that some people are better than other based on their genetics.

Considering affirmative action, this is simply a word to hide the fact that it's state supported racism. Not only that but it's sheer racism when it's come to the meritocracy system. (Based on actual skills which are evaluated during exams )

"As part of Virginia's waiver to opt out of mandates set out in the No Child Left Behind law, the state has created a controversial new set of education goals that are higher for white and Asian kids than for blacks, Latinos and students with disabilities. ... Here's what the Virginia state board of education actually did. It looked at students' test scores in reading and math and then proposed new passing rates. In math it set an acceptable passing rate at 82 percent for Asian students, 68 percent for whites, 52 percent for Latinos, 45 percent for blacks and 33 percent for kids with disabilities."

http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/11 ... edium=feed


This is pure racism. We consider that depending of your origins, you are more likely to succeed and therefore we tweak the result threshold to make it even. It's considered in this case, that latino and black are disabled when it's come to maths and should be forcefully put to the level of other students by reducing the work they have to provide.
.

Outside those considerations, i can't see how people who pretend to be anti-racist support a form of institutionalization racism. University quota for exemple mean that minority are no better than mentally disable since they can't pass the same exams as everyone.
Also, the affirmative action speech is good for charity events, but in the real life, if a member of a community/suburb/ethnicity/religion is considered as not fitted for certain work. As unfair as it's look, the entrepreneur isn't going to even try.

Unless we do quota in companies too ?

Once a community or a minority has proven its merits, there should be no need for this kind of artificial assistance.

[Farnhamia]

I have been talking about it in another topic :

-Remember that racism is an idelogy that says that some people are better than other based on their genetics.

Considering affirmative action, this is simply a word to hide the fact that it's state supported racism. Not only that but it's sheer racism when it's come to the meritocracy system. (Based on actual skills which are evaluated during exams )

http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/11 ... edium=feed


This is pure racism. We consider that depending of your origins, you are more likely to succeed and therefore we tweak the result threshold to make it even. It's considered in this case, that latino and black are disabled when it's come to maths and should be forcefully put to the level of other students by reducing the work they have to provide.
.

Outside those considerations, i can't see how people who pretend to be anti-racist support a form of institutionalization racism. University quota for exemple mean that minority are no better than mentally disable since they can't pass the same exams as everyone.
Also, the affirmative action speech is good for charity events, but in the real life, if a member of a community/suburb/ethnicity/religion is considered as not fitted for certain work. As unfair as it's look, the entrepreneur isn't going to even try.

Unless we do quota in companies too ?

Once a community or a minority has proven its merits, there should be no need for this kind of artificial assistance.

In the United States, affirmative action refers to equal opportunity employment measures that Federal contractors and subcontractors are legally required to adopt. These measures are intended to prevent discrimination against employees or applicants for employment, on the basis of "color, religion, sex, or national origin".[1][2] Examples of affirmative action offered by the United States Department of Labor include outreach campaigns, targeted recruitment, employee and management development, and employee support programs.[2]

The impetus towards affirmative action is to redress the disadvantages[3][4][5][6][7] associated with overt historical discrimination.[8] Further impetus is a desire to ensure public institutions, such as universities, hospitals and police forces, are more representative of the populations they serve.[9] Affirmative action is a subject of controversy. Some policies adopted as affirmative action, such as racial quotas or gender quotas for collegiate admission, have been criticized as a form of reverse discrimination, and such implementation of affirmative action has been ruled unconstitutional by the majority opinion of Gratz v. Bollinger. Affirmative action as a practice was upheld by the court's decision in Grutter v. Bollinger.[10]

[New Chalcedon]

And I made no claim that they do. They simply prove that equality of opportunity is not present.

Which is why opportunity should be furthered to give equal standing.

Absolutely. On this, we agree.

Except that a white kid is far, far more likely attend a reasonably well-resourced school that can afford to hire and supply teachers to actually teach him, to have parents who are able to hire private tutors to make sure he passes the tests, pay his fees up-front (at least in part), pay for him to take part in the Right Kind of extracurricular activities to make his college applications look better and do a hundred and one other things that make their college application look far shinier with the same amount of effort on the part of the two students.

And yes, speaking as someone who has helped childhood learning for students of multiple races, a large proportion of that is due to race.

That's a problem of access, which could be helped without making race a holistic factor. Resources from the beginning in secondary schools would, theoretically, have the same result.

True, and as I stated, as a medium to long-term remedy, I like the idea of providing genuine equality of opportunity better than I do affirmative action.

Equal quality must still be shown for that step to occur. Remedies to ensure that each race has the opportunity and access to prove that quality is absolutely deemed.


I'm not expressly against programs that merely seeks to ensure equal treatment for those who present themselves with equal quality. It depends on the quality of future performance, or should, in terms of college admission. My problem is the expansion from that point, when it becomes a focus outside of the community and into merely 'structuring' institutions based on racial proportion. I fear that the remedy may take focus away from where it's needed- the 'ultimate' end doesn't necessarily lie with immediate integration if integration isn't self-sustaining.

It's a problem of access for the other students. There are legitimate public universities that can accomodate attendance. The disconnect is empowering minorities through the application process and broadening equality to all factors in all areas, not just in select places where they are underrepresented.

If the problem is access for other students, why not simply resource universities well enough that they can take more applicants? While it's true that integration must ultimately be supported from below (not simply imposed by above), only the government can start the process, because only the government has the capacity to enact a comprehensive program designed to foster inclusion and integration.

Extra resources to minority schools is absolutely a term of opportunity. This separates public schools from universities; busing and other actions in public schools are legitimate in ensuring resources are distributed fairly and to as many students as possible. Without those actions, I'm sure I need not say how segregated many school districts would be (and still are, unfortunately).

Indeed you need not - and to a large extent, de facto segregation still persists.

In universities, qualification becomes the question in terms of the level of access- potential for academic performance.

Don't get on your high horse too fast - this is American higher education. How rich your daddy is is the first question asked.

It's ridiculous that members of races are excluded or more likely to be excluded with the same qualifications, but it doesn't owe to success if race is given as a holistic review that changes that level of qualification merely for the advancement of race.

The opportunity for college indeed exists, but this is an access problem for minorities to their level within the university system. One that should be corrected independent of strict affirmative action remedies.

And here's the problem: while I ultimately agree with you that affirmative action is the "second-best" solution, it's the only one that presently has the groundwork for enactment in place. By all means, develop the groundwork for the optimal (i.e., genuine, organic equality of opportunity and equal distribution of public resources to ensure it) solution - I'll support such a course of action.

But don't remove AA until this equality of opportunity exists in fact, not just in name.

Also, I am not Caninope.

I was tired - consider it a compliment

[Alien Space Bats]

Hmm, Mark Jacobs or JaMarcus Franklin... Well, Mark is a bit easier to say than JaMarcus, I'll just go with him.

So why does "Steve Blagojevich" tend to get the nod over "Latisha Roberts"?

Hint: It's not pronunciation.

[Disserbia]

Socio-economic status is all that should matter. Absolutely nothing else.

Yeah, who cares if people won't hire blacks, women, gays, trans people, foreigners, gypsies, etc? What really matters is poor people getting hired.

In terms of strengthening the economy, yes, that is what matters. I am against bigotry just as I am against affirmative action personally and I will to my best to act against both, because discrimination on the basis of identity will never bring an end to discrimination on the basis of identity.

[Xsyne]

....holy shit

It is harsh and will offend people but no less true, if you only had 2 first names to go on, would you rather hire John or Jafreese? Which do you think rolls off of the tongue better in a business setting?

Jafreese. I probably already have a John, and I'd like to be able to yell "Hey, [employee name]" and get the person I want.

[Freiheit Reich]

Time to scrap affirmative action

ABOVE the entrance to America’s Supreme Court four words are carved: “Equal justice under law”. The court is pondering whether affirmative action breaks that promise. The justices recently accepted a case concerning a vote in Michigan that banned it, and will soon rule on whether the University of Texas’s race-conscious admissions policies are lawful. The question in both cases is as simple as it is divisive: should government be colour-blind?

America is one of many countries where the state gives a leg-up to members of certain racial, ethnic, or other groups by holding them to different standards. The details vary. In some countries, the policy applies only to areas under direct state control, such as public-works contracts or admission to public universities. In others, private firms are also obliged to take account of the race of their employees, contractors and even owners. But the effects are strikingly similar around the world (see article).

Many of these policies were put in place with the best of intentions: to atone for past injustices and ameliorate their legacy. No one can deny that, for example, blacks in America or dalits in India (members of the caste once branded “untouchable”) have suffered grievous wrongs, and continue to suffer discrimination. Favouring members of these groups seems like a quick and effective way of making society fairer.

Most of these groups have made great progress. But establishing how much credit affirmative action can take is hard, when growth also brings progress and some of the good—for example the confidence-boosting effect of creating prominent role models for a benighted group—is intangible. And it is impossible to know how a targeted group would have got on without this special treatment. Malays are three times richer in Singapore, where they do not get preferences, than in next-door Malaysia, where they do. At the same time, the downside of affirmative action has become all too apparent.

(Loads) More Words Etc. Here

So, surprising as this may sound, a journal writen largely for middle class white people says that Affirmative Action is a Bad Thing. I dunno, seems to me like the best way to get people comfortable with the idea of the currently underprivelaged being in certain places, and the usual people who complain about not getting into uni "because of Affirmative Action" are people who are at the shitty end of the intellectual wedge.

But you might have a different opinion, indeed I'm sure many of you will. So let fly with your words like it's about to be argument bukkake on this thread's face, etc.

Yes, any policies favoring one race over another need to be ended. If liberals support pro-black policies that hurt whites than this makes them racist.

There are a few enlightened blacks also against the racist policies of affirmative action. These blacks believe they are capable of succeeding without needing special treatment.

Here is a black economist who grew up in a poor Philadephia neighborhood without a father and he is against affirmative action. You shouldn't assume only whites are against affirmative action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_E._Williams

Williams was critical of were minimum wage and affirmative action laws, stating both practices inhibit liberty and are detrimental to the blacks they are intended to help. He published his results in his 1982 book The State Against Blacks, where he argued that laws regulating economic activity are far greater obstacles to economic progress for blacks than racial bigotry and discrimination.[8]

[Choronzon]

I wonder if some of you folks know that in some situations white men also benefit from affirmative action policies.

[Mavorpen]

Yes, any policies favoring one race over another need to be ended

Which isn't Affirmative Action.

[Phocidaea]

I wonder if some of you folks know that in some situations white men also benefit from affirmative action policies.

What situations? Jobs where there are too many minorities and women already?

[The Steel Magnolia]

I wonder if some of you folks know that in some situations white men also benefit from affirmative action policies.

What situations? Jobs where there are too many minorities and women already?

Yes.

[Coccygia]

I wonder if some of you folks know that in some situations white men also benefit from affirmative action policies.

By getting folks who work cheap?

[Restaured France]

Does this work for poor white ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20898608

[Mavorpen]

Does this work for poor white ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20898608

You do realize you have to APPLY in order to get into a university, right?

[Restaured France]

But we should do affirmative action to get some sort of quota of everything in the university no ?

[Mavorpen]

But we should do affirmative action to get some sort of quota of everything in the university no ?

No. That's illegal.

[Frisivisia]

Hmm, Mark Jacobs or JaMarcus Franklin... Well, Mark is a bit easier to say than JaMarcus, I'll just go with him.

So why does "Steve Blagojevich" tend to get the nod over "Latisha Roberts"?

Hint: It's not pronunciation.

I dunno, Blagojevich sounds pretty Slavic. Everyone knows Slavs aren't even white.

[Evraim]

As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

For college admissions, for instance - as blunt as it sounds, I don't care if you're a half-black half-Mexican female, if you want to get into the same school as me, you should have to do the same fucking stuff. It's not fair that I should be punished for being white or male. It is absolutely reverse discrimination, and no amount of lefty PC lotion can fix that.

We do. It's not like I walked into the university, yelled out, "ACCEPT ME, BITCHES!" and was promptly presented with admittance to the university.

I would try this if I wasn't a middle-class Jewish female already attending university...

I dunno, Blagojevich sounds pretty Slavic. Everyone knows Slavs aren't even white.

I checked with Stormfront. Slavs aren't white. They're evil Commies.

[Choronzon]

What situations? Jobs where there are too many minorities and women already?

Yes.

I like that he said "too many."

It reminds us what this is all about for a lot of people. Being pissed off that they have to work with blacks and women.

[Central Slavia]

Affirmative action is both unjust and bad. News at 11

But a study found that at some American universities, black applicants who scored 450 points (out of 1,600) worse than Asians on entrance tests were equally likely to win a place.

I like how this quite literally makes black university students at that particular place inferior to white or asian ones, simply because they're held under much laxer criteria, thus giving fuel to negative stereotypes. Take that, equality.

As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

Good of you to admit that you're more concerned with having an easy life than the equal treatment of all people in society. Now we can just dismiss everything you say out of hand as the usual "But...but...my privilege!" whining.

Oh, because only blacks and minorities are allowed to be concerned with their own well-being. How brilliantly put, Ifreann. You know, beside the fact that no matter how many times you'll repeat it Goebbels-style, grossly favouring one group over another isn't equal treatment.

One American federal-contracting programme favours businesses owned by “socially and economically disadvantaged” people. Such people can be 87 times richer than the average American family and still be deemed “disadvantaged” if their skin is the right colour.

A characteristic example that shows exactly why it is unfair - and if you begin to tell me that someone with earnings even 4x another person deserves the state to give them a push because they're somehow worse off, you're a weapons-grade bullshitter.


Furthermore, I'm very sure lowered bar must do wonders for the candidates' self-esteem. Because, you know, it automatically sets them off as inferior - even if they achieve the same result as someone else, everyone still knows they were given a leg-up. I know, because that's precisely the reason I didn't apply for DRC to get stuff like extra exam time even though I technically could (Lowered Dex score somewhat (gotten a lot better since i was a kid) due to being born hanged, resulting in fugly handwriting among other).

And third of all , it's shit like this which is actively helping racists , because they can point and show that the whoever is it you're talking about wouldn't be where they are without a government leg up, be it true or false , and the legitimate resentment it stirs among people when someone better off than themselves gets propped up by the big man while they get shit on. Because you know, poor white people exist, in fact there's a fuckton of them.

Even old Roman law had the maxim "The son should not be liable for the deeds of his father".

[Mavorpen]

Affirmative action is both unjust and bad. News at 11

But a study found that at some American universities, black applicants who scored 450 points (out of 1,600) worse than Asians on entrance tests were equally likely to win a place.

I like how this quite literally makes black university students at that particular place inferior to white or asian ones, simply because they're held under much laxer criteria, thus giving fuel to negative stereotypes. Take that, equality.

Good of you to admit that you're more concerned with having an easy life than the equal treatment of all people in society. Now we can just dismiss everything you say out of hand as the usual "But...but...my privilege!" whining.

Oh, because only blacks and minorities are allowed to be concerned with their own well-being. How brilliantly put, Ifreann. You know, beside the fact that no matter how many times you'll repeat it Goebbels-style, grossly favouring one group over another isn't equal treatment.

One American federal-contracting programme favours businesses owned by “socially and economically disadvantaged” people. Such people can be 87 times richer than the average American family and still be deemed “disadvantaged” if their skin is the right colour.

A characteristic example that shows exactly why it is unfair - and if you begin to tell me that someone with earnings even 4x another person deserves the state to give them a push because they're somehow worse off, you're a weapons-grade bullshitter.


Furthermore, I'm very sure lowered bar must do wonders for the candidates' self-esteem. Because, you know, it automatically sets them off as inferior - even if they achieve the same result as someone else, everyone still knows they were given a leg-up. I know, because that's precisely the reason I didn't apply for DRC to get stuff like extra exam time even though I technically could (Lowered Dex score somewhat (gotten a lot better since i was a kid) due to being born hanged, resulting in fugly handwriting among other).

And third of all , it's shit like this which is actively helping racists , because they can point and show that the whoever is it you're talking about wouldn't be where they are without a government leg up, be it true or false , and the legitimate resentment it stirs among people when someone better off than themselves gets propped up by the big man while they get shit on. Because you know, poor white people exist, in fact there's a fuckton of them.

Even old Roman law had the maxim "The son should not be liable for the deeds of his father".

So basically Affirmative Action should exist.

[Central Slavia]

No I won't try and say that racism and sexism is dead. But all affermitve action does is hold minority's hands and telling them that if they don't get the job it's because the company is racist.

And in the same light, because I'm black and support affirmative action, I must be a lazy nigger who wants free stuff, right?

Or, we can just grow the fuck up and not enter into tin foil hat territory.

If you use Ifreann's logic, you are.

As a "middle class white person", I oppose affirmative action partly because it's ideologically questionable, but also - and admittedly much more so - because it actively hurts me as an individual.

Good of you to admit that you're more concerned with having an easy life than the equal treatment of all people in society. Now we can just dismiss everything you say out of hand as the usual "But...but...my privilege!" whining.

Since according to him, the mirror situation on the other side )white, does not want affirmative action) can be dismissed as "lazy whitey wants his 'privilege'".

[Central Slavia]

Affirmative action is both unjust and bad. News at 11


I like how this quite literally makes black university students at that particular place inferior to white or asian ones, simply because they're held under much laxer criteria, thus giving fuel to negative stereotypes. Take that, equality.




Oh, because only blacks and minorities are allowed to be concerned with their own well-being. How brilliantly put, Ifreann. You know, beside the fact that no matter how many times you'll repeat it Goebbels-style, grossly favouring one group over another isn't equal treatment.


A characteristic example that shows exactly why it is unfair - and if you begin to tell me that someone with earnings even 4x another person deserves the state to give them a push because they're somehow worse off, you're a weapons-grade bullshitter.


Furthermore, I'm very sure lowered bar must do wonders for the candidates' self-esteem. Because, you know, it automatically sets them off as inferior - even if they achieve the same result as someone else, everyone still knows they were given a leg-up. I know, because that's precisely the reason I didn't apply for DRC to get stuff like extra exam time even though I technically could (Lowered Dex score somewhat (gotten a lot better since i was a kid) due to being born hanged, resulting in fugly handwriting among other).

And third of all , it's shit like this which is actively helping racists , because they can point and show that the whoever is it you're talking about wouldn't be where they are without a government leg up, be it true or false , and the legitimate resentment it stirs among people when someone better off than themselves gets propped up by the big man while they get shit on. Because you know, poor white people exist, in fact there's a fuckton of them.

Even old Roman law had the maxim "The son should not be liable for the deeds of his father".

So basically Affirmative Action should exist.

So basically, some people can't understand written text.

[Mavorpen]

And in the same light, because I'm black and support affirmative action, I must be a lazy nigger who wants free stuff, right?

Or, we can just grow the fuck up and not enter into tin foil hat territory.

If you use Ifreann's logic, you are.

Good of you to admit that you're more concerned with having an easy life than the equal treatment of all people in society. Now we can just dismiss everything you say out of hand as the usual "But...but...my privilege!" whining.

Since according to him, the mirror situation on the other side )white, does not want affirmative action) can be dismissed as "lazy whitey wants his 'privilege'".

I'm confused. Is there an argument against affirmative action here or simply annoying whining of a statement taken out of context of the entire discussion in the thread?

[Mavorpen]

So basically Affirmative Action should exist.

So basically, some people can't understand written text.

I'm aware you have such a problem.

Why you feel the need to announce it is beyond me.