Rape and Death Threats: What MRAs Really Look Like

[Gideus]

Apathy does nothing. It offers no solace, no reinforcement, no condemnation.

"Don't react to bullies" is a fucking stupid concept.

You also require no solace, no reinforcement, etc. Pride doesn't condemn either. You can condemn seperately by saying they clearly give a shit about the inconsequential, etc.

It isn't "Don't react to bullies."

It's "Don't let them get to you."
You can react all you like.

So you advocate for a form of retaliation? That can worsen any situation.

[New Conway]

here's a shocker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3JInPCnhyM

WE can cherry pick too!

[The Steel Magnolia]

Apathy does nothing. It offers no solace, no reinforcement, no condemnation.

"Don't react to bullies" is a fucking stupid concept.

You also require no solace, no reinforcement, etc.

Untrue.

Pride doesn't condemn either. You can condemn seperately by saying they clearly give a shit about the inconsequential, etc.

Untrue.
Pride is saying "Hey, you have no right to criticize me for this."

It isn't "Don't react to bullies."

It's "Don't let them get to you."
You can react all you like.

So you can react, you just can't react.

[Ostroeuropa]

Thats why I used the faith analogy.
"Moderate" religious people directly validate "faith" as a valid way of thinking about things, and directly contribute to religious extremism.

Except, of course, faith is a perfectly valid way of thinking about things.

For those who believe that is.

See I, unlike you, believe in freedom of thought, and that means people are free to believe however the fuck they like.

Because I don't accept the insane notion that an elderly priest who gives to the poor validates the WBC.

Faith isn't a valid way to think about things. It's antithetical to critical thinking. I believe in freedom of thought too. Nothing about that implies I have to say everyones thoughts are equally valid.
You are free to think, and indeed to claim, that 2+2=5.
You'd just be an idiot if you do.

[Gideus]

Moving the goalposts much?

I could care less if I devalue pride.

I have the freedom to be prideful in whatever I goddamn want. I think some forms of pride are silly, absolutely, because I see pride as primarily a tool against discrimination. Pride can be used for negative things, no doubt. See: White Supremacy.

But that doesn't mean it can't be used for good things either.

If you are making a fool of yourself by being silly and creating a culture where pride in ones factory settings is seen as normal, you are actively assisting in oppression by validating the white supremacists and such and the methods/language they use.
That isn't using it for a good thing. You can accomplish the same results of defence against bigotry with apathy.

Thats why I used the faith analogy.
"Moderate" religious people directly validate "faith" as a valid way of thinking about things, and directly contribute to religious extremism.

Except that "moderate" religious people do not directly contribute to religious extremism. Oftentimes "moderate" religious individuals directly oppose extremism and denounce it; it is a case of the common syndrome of the vocal minority overshadowing the quiet majority.

[Ostroeuropa]

You also require no solace, no reinforcement, etc. Pride doesn't condemn either. You can condemn seperately by saying they clearly give a shit about the inconsequential, etc.

It isn't "Don't react to bullies."

It's "Don't let them get to you."
You can react all you like.

So you advocate for a form of retaliation? That can worsen any situation.

I don't advocate it. I don't prohibit it either. Normally what I do in my personal situation is ignore it and chuckle to myself about the inbred fucks, then worry about education spending.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Except, of course, faith is a perfectly valid way of thinking about things.

For those who believe that is.

See I, unlike you, believe in freedom of thought, and that means people are free to believe however the fuck they like.

Because I don't accept the insane notion that an elderly priest who gives to the poor validates the WBC.

Faith isn't a valid way to think about things. It's antithetical to critical thinking. I believe in freedom of thought too. Nothing about that implies I have to say everyones thoughts are equally valid.
You are free to think, and indeed to claim, that 2+2=5.
You'd just be an idiot if you do.

Which is still incomparable, because gender and race as social constructs objectively exist.

The fact that you argue against them is proof enough.

[The Steel Magnolia]

So you advocate for a form of retaliation? That can worsen any situation.

I don't advocate it. I don't prohibit it either. Normally what I do in my personal situation is ignore it and chuckle to myself about the inbred fucks, then worry about education spending.

Which is great for you.

Not for everyone else.

[Ostroeuropa]

Faith isn't a valid way to think about things. It's antithetical to critical thinking. I believe in freedom of thought too. Nothing about that implies I have to say everyones thoughts are equally valid.
You are free to think, and indeed to claim, that 2+2=5.
You'd just be an idiot if you do.

Which is still incomparable, because gender and race as social constructs objectively exist.

The fact that you argue against them is proof enough.

Yes, i'm arguing that they need to be largely sidelined.
Blood types also objectively exist. What of it?

[Gideus]

here's a shocker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3JInPCnhyM

WE can cherry pick too!

She is being shameful to her movement. At the same time, anyone who cherry-picks events done by feminists or radical feminist beliefs is being shameful to themselves or their own movement.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't advocate it. I don't prohibit it either. Normally what I do in my personal situation is ignore it and chuckle to myself about the inbred fucks, then worry about education spending.

Which is great for you.

Not for everyone else.

Just like nobody giving two shits about blood type is just great for most of the world, but doesn't work for those communities who think it's a massive deal.
Sorry, I simply don't see how you can argue that. It's a fundamental disconnect between us.
Those people who think it's a massive deal are wrong. Theres no other way to look at it. It isn't a huge deal, it's completely inconsequential to someones character.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Which is still incomparable, because gender and race as social constructs objectively exist.

The fact that you argue against them is proof enough.

Yes, i'm arguing that they need to be largely sidelined.
Blood types also objectively exist. What of it?

And such 'sidelining' is an unacceptable restriction in freedom.

[Gideus]

So you advocate for a form of retaliation? That can worsen any situation.

I don't advocate it. I don't prohibit it either. Normally what I do in my personal situation is ignore it and chuckle to myself about the inbred fucks, then worry about education spending.

That is "Don't react to bullies."

[Ostroeuropa]

Yes, i'm arguing that they need to be largely sidelined.
Blood types also objectively exist. What of it?

And such 'sidelining' is an unacceptable restriction in freedom.

How so.
I'm not arguing we force anyone to think this way. I'm arguing they should think this way.
I see no restriction to freedom.

[The Steel Magnolia]

And such 'sidelining' is an unacceptable restriction in freedom.

How so.
I'm not arguing we force anyone to think this way. I'm arguing they should think this way.
I see no restriction to freedom.

Sure.

By denigrating them and calling them fools and idiots.

[New Conway]

She is being shameful to her movement. At the same time, anyone who cherry-picks events done by feminists or radical feminist beliefs is being shameful to themselves or their own movement.

how about people who cherry pick examples of MRA like the OP did? Is it not exactly the same case? The reality is that MRA started on sites that were plagued by a lot of trolls and people of much less politically correct ideologies who decided to take things too far, some out of ignorance, some because they thought it would be funny to troll both movements (MRA and Feminists) at the same time.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I'm afraid I don't understand.

White supremacists feel they are resisting oppression as well. Black Panthers do as well. One side clearly has a more sympathetic case (Black Panthers, in case that isn't glaringly obvious) but they're both basing it off the same flawed vision of resisting oppression from the outside group X (whatever that outside group is).

Those are the attitudes which create problems. Are they justified in some cases? For sure. But they're still the breeding ground for racism and oppression. Creating "Us" versus "Them" mentalities ineviteably ends in opposing groups that dislike or actively oppress one another.

I could very well be misunderstanding your point however.

I'm arguing a vaguely different point.

I think some types of pride are silly, namely those that are not resisting oppression. I.E. White supremacists.

I also think Black Panthers are extremists who just reverse the cycle of hatred. The modern ones certainly are.

That doesn't invalidate pride in identity, and pride in resistance.

But being proud of standing firm in the wake of prejudice doesn't have to cause any "Us" vs "Them" sort of shenanigans.

Moreover, sometimes those shenanigans need to happen to accomplish change.

I dunnow. Pride in identity seems like too nebulous a concept to speak about in blanket terms (as this whole debate seems to be centered around ) and pride in resistance really only works as a concept depending on what the resistance is to (the civil rights movement of the 60s would have a legitimate claim to pride in resistance, but the aforementioned white supremacists obviously do not).

Certainly 'standing firm in the wake of prejudice' doesn't necessarily mean "us" vs. "them" feelings, but it seems like it's very easy for it to veer into such a situation due to members reversing the prejudice (as occurred with the Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam or the IRA or any other number of resistance movements throughout history).

Don't know how I like the idea of such radicalization being needed in groups to cause change. Seems depressing, but looking at the examples we've got handy it sure seems to be true.

I dunnow. Whoever sent the rape/death threats is/are terrible people.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't advocate it. I don't prohibit it either. Normally what I do in my personal situation is ignore it and chuckle to myself about the inbred fucks, then worry about education spending.

That is "Don't react to bullies."

Yeh, I don't react. People can if they want. They just shouldn't let what the bully says get to them.

[Ostroeuropa]

How so.
I'm not arguing we force anyone to think this way. I'm arguing they should think this way.
I see no restriction to freedom.

Sure.

By denigrating them and calling them fools and idiots.

Insults restrict freedom now? Since when. Not only that, but by pointing out they have no reason to be proud of these things.
They have no influence on them. It's like being proud of your neighbors car.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I dunnow. Pride in identity seems like too nebulous a concept to speak about in blanket terms (as this whole debate seems to be centered around ) and pride in resistance really only works as a concept depending on what the resistance is to (the civil rights movement of the 60s would have a legitimate claim to pride in resistance, but the aforementioned white supremacists obviously do not).

Certainly 'standing firm in the wake of prejudice' doesn't necessarily mean "us" vs. "them" feelings, but it seems like it's very easy for it to veer into such a situation due to members reversing the prejudice (as occurred with the Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam or the IRA or any other number of resistance movements throughout history).

Don't know how I like the idea of such radicalization being needed in groups to cause change. Seems depressing, but looking at the examples we've got handy it sure seems to be true.

I dunnow. Whoever sent the rape/death threats is/are terrible people.

I broadly agree with everything you said. I don't see making our differences meaningless as a good thing, as Ostro does, but besides that I can agree with all of what you said.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Sure.

By denigrating them and calling them fools and idiots.

Insults restrict freedom now? Since when. Not only that, but by pointing out they have no reason to be proud of these things.
They have no influence on them.

Words don't have influence and power. Insults and denigrations and prejudice are not important?

Being denied your intrinsic sense of self and humanity is somehow meaningless?

Your skin may be so deep you reflect all that comes towards, good and ill alike.

The rest of us are not quite so "lucky."

[The Steel Magnolia]

That is "Don't react to bullies."

Yeh, I don't react. People can if they want. They just shouldn't let what the bully says get to them.

Pride is reacting.

[Ostroeuropa]

Insults restrict freedom now? Since when. Not only that, but by pointing out they have no reason to be proud of these things.
They have no influence on them.

Words don't have influence and power. Insults and denigrations and prejudice are not important?

Being denied your intrinsic sense of self and humanity is somehow meaningless?

Your skin may be so deep you reflect all that comes towards, good and ill alike.

The rest of us are not quite so "lucky."

It isn't prejudice to regard those who believe foolish things as fools.
I could meet a homosexual and the only thing I know about them is that they fuck men. If they then go on to say they are PROUD of being a homosexual, it isn't PREJUDICIAL to take that remark and judge it. It's judicial.

Insults are not important. You are right. Not unless you care about the opinion of the person issueing them, in which case the proper response is to question why they issued the insult. Maybe you really are being a fool.

Noone is denying your sense of self to you. They are saying you are basing your sense of self on silly things.

It isn't luck. It's effort. Anyone can train themselves to not give a shit.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I dunnow. Pride in identity seems like too nebulous a concept to speak about in blanket terms (as this whole debate seems to be centered around ) and pride in resistance really only works as a concept depending on what the resistance is to (the civil rights movement of the 60s would have a legitimate claim to pride in resistance, but the aforementioned white supremacists obviously do not).

Certainly 'standing firm in the wake of prejudice' doesn't necessarily mean "us" vs. "them" feelings, but it seems like it's very easy for it to veer into such a situation due to members reversing the prejudice (as occurred with the Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam or the IRA or any other number of resistance movements throughout history).

Don't know how I like the idea of such radicalization being needed in groups to cause change. Seems depressing, but looking at the examples we've got handy it sure seems to be true.

I dunnow. Whoever sent the rape/death threats is/are terrible people.

I broadly agree with everything you said. I don't see making our differences meaningless as a good thing, as Ostro does, but besides that I can agree with all of what you said.

Agreement?
On the Internet?
In a thread about Men's Rights Associations?
That's three horsemen. One more and there goes the world.

[Ostroeuropa]

Yeh, I don't react. People can if they want. They just shouldn't let what the bully says get to them.

Pride is reacting.

So if someone insults me for the result of a coin flip and I react by saying "Thats completely stupid and you're a bigot for saying it." am I suddenly proud of the coin flip result, or am I pointing out that someone else is placing WAYYYYYYY too much stock in the result of a coin flip.