The Future of Libertarianism

[Luveria]

The Libertarian Party is a libertarian organization.

Nope, laissez-faire capitalism is horribly unfree, for the same reason a society where you are "free" to hold a roomful of people hostage at gunpoint is unfree: it merely shifts the locus of oppression from the state to private actors, rather than actually limiting oppression altogether.

I get that that might not be their intent, but one of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.

I agree laisseze-fair capitalism is horribly unfree for everyone who isn't wealthy. I'm not defending libertarianism, just pointing out the libertarian party is a libertarian organization.

I really don't like the Libertarian party. The only reason they have their "liberal" social views is so that they can be ultra Laissez-Faire economically, but since this is completely antithetical to Liberalism, I just see them as ultra-Republicans.

They are only socially liberal in the way of not specifically legislating social oppression but letting individual states be socially conservative if they want to. Libertarians are ultra-republicans lacking the religiosity of the GOP.

[Bottle]

They don't particularly care if you smoke pot.

Which is actually a pretty big deal, given how many people are in jail for things like that, and how much money taxed marijuana could bring in.

OK, so thus far I've got that libertarians are pro-legalization of drugs, and are indifferent on the subject of criminalizing homosexuality.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice that they oppose the (utterly failed) War on Drugs. But I don't know if that's enough to get my vote, all on its own. Anything else?

[The Truth and Light]

I really don't like the Libertarian party. The only reason they have their "liberal" social views is so that they can be ultra Laissez-Faire economically, but since this is completely antithetical to Liberalism, I just see them as ultra-Republicans.

They are only socially liberal in the way of not specifically legislating social oppression but letting individual states be socially conservative if they want to. Libertarians are ultra-republicans lacking the religiosity of the GOP.

Ah, that's how I meant to articulate it. Except many of their stances give disproportionate rights to religious groups, also not mistakenly a very conservative thing to do.

[Luveria]

They are only socially liberal in the way of not specifically legislating social oppression but letting individual states be socially conservative if they want to. Libertarians are ultra-republicans lacking the religiosity of the GOP.

Ah, that's how I meant to articulate it. Except many of their stances give disproportionate rights to religious groups, also not mistakenly a very conservative thing to do.

A policy of hands off republicanism as opposed to federal republicanism.

[The Truth and Light]

Ah, that's how I meant to articulate it. Except many of their stances give disproportionate rights to religious groups, also not mistakenly a very conservative thing to do.

A policy of hands off republicanism as opposed to federal republicanism.

Very much so.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Nope, laissez-faire capitalism is horribly unfree, for the same reason a society where you are "free" to hold a roomful of people hostage at gunpoint is unfree: it merely shifts the locus of oppression from the state to private actors, rather than actually limiting oppression altogether.

I get that that might not be their intent, but one of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.

I'll just leave it at this: we have very different ideas of what defines "oppression".

Indeed: mine is grounded in reality, yours in pretending things don't have effects beyond their immediate context and intent.

[Luveria]

Which is actually a pretty big deal, given how many people are in jail for things like that, and how much money taxed marijuana could bring in.

OK, so thus far I've got that libertarians are pro-legalization of drugs, and are indifferent on the subject of criminalizing homosexuality.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice that they oppose the (utterly failed) War on Drugs. But I don't know if that's enough to get my vote, all on its own. Anything else?

They really only oppose the war on drugs because of their hatred of federal government since the war on drugs is a federal policy. It's also only marijuana they oppose the illegality of and mainly for economic reasons. They don't care if states make their own anti-drug legislation.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

OK, so thus far I've got that libertarians are pro-legalization of drugs, and are indifferent on the subject of criminalizing homosexuality.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice that they oppose the (utterly failed) War on Drugs. But I don't know if that's enough to get my vote, all on its own. Anything else?

They really only oppose the war on drugs because of their hatred of federal government since the war on drugs is a federal policy. It's also only marijuana they oppose the illegality of and mainly for economic reasons. They don't care if states make their own anti-drug legislation.

Ehh...that depends.

When I was a US-style pseudo-"Libertarian," I was not merely an anti-federalist but indeed held that the states, too, had no legitimate authority to make such laws. As were almost all the others I was aware of, except for a few factions that seemed to me to constitute a minority of the movement.

I mean, there's a lot fucked up about it, which is why I renounced it when I realized it, but let's at least paint an honest picture, ok?

[Constaniana]

And completely sell out on foreign policy.


For many people, the democrats aren't socially liberal enough.

It suck for people like me who are socially to the right of Dems, but left of the GOP.

I know those feels.

[Bottle]

OK, so thus far I've got that libertarians are pro-legalization of drugs, and are indifferent on the subject of criminalizing homosexuality.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice that they oppose the (utterly failed) War on Drugs. But I don't know if that's enough to get my vote, all on its own. Anything else?

They really only oppose the war on drugs because of their hatred of federal government since the war on drugs is a federal policy. It's also only marijuana they oppose the illegality of and mainly for economic reasons. They don't care if states make their own anti-drug legislation.

That's been my impression, too. All the "libertarians" I have been seeing are just in favor of states' rights, which translates to a lot more oppressive and restrictive laws being imposed on the people. I don't consider that very libertarian at all, which is why I put it in scare quotes.

[Bottle]

It suck for people like me who are socially to the right of Dems, but left of the GOP.

I know those feels.

It sucks for people like me, who are to the left of the Dems, too. If only we had actual libertarians in the USA.

[Regnum Dominae]

They really only oppose the war on drugs because of their hatred of federal government since the war on drugs is a federal policy. It's also only marijuana they oppose the illegality of and mainly for economic reasons. They don't care if states make their own anti-drug legislation.

That's been my impression, too. All the "libertarians" I have been seeing are just in favor of states' rights, which translates to a lot more oppressive and restrictive laws being imposed on the people. I don't consider that very libertarian at all, which is why I put it in scare quotes.

I'm federalist on social issues and states rights on economic issues.

[Luveria]

That's been my impression, too. All the "libertarians" I have been seeing are just in favor of states' rights, which translates to a lot more oppressive and restrictive laws being imposed on the people. I don't consider that very libertarian at all, which is why I put it in scare quotes.

I'm federalist on social issues and states rights on economic issues.

That's a lot closer to liberalism than libertarianism.

[Bottle]

That's been my impression, too. All the "libertarians" I have been seeing are just in favor of states' rights, which translates to a lot more oppressive and restrictive laws being imposed on the people. I don't consider that very libertarian at all, which is why I put it in scare quotes.

I'm federalist on social issues and states rights on economic issues.

As a feminist who has personally helped with campaigns for equal pay laws, and to end housing discrimination against gay people, I laugh at the idea that they can be separated.

[The Truth and Light]

I know those feels.

It sucks for people like me, who are to the left of the Dems, too. If only we had actual libertarians in the USA.

I feel like popular culture does a lot to stigmatize leftism, so no one really wants to publicize the fact that America needs to swing that way, even in the face of corporations like Fox which give rightists a shit-ton of airtime.

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

That's been my impression, too. All the "libertarians" I have been seeing are just in favor of states' rights, which translates to a lot more oppressive and restrictive laws being imposed on the people. I don't consider that very libertarian at all, which is why I put it in scare quotes.

I'm federalist on social issues and states rights on economic issues.

Social issues and economic issues are inseparable. They are literally the same damn thing!

[Regnum Dominae]

I'm federalist on social issues and states rights on economic issues.

Social issues and economic issues are inseparable. They are literally the same damn thing!

How does gay adoption relate to tax brackets?

[The Truth and Light]

Social issues and economic issues are inseparable. They are literally the same damn thing!

How does gay adoption relate to tax brackets?

Tax brackets have to do with class, so it's a pretty social issue.

[Bottle]

Social issues and economic issues are inseparable. They are literally the same damn thing!

How does gay adoption relate to tax brackets?

Uh, directly? Same as gay marriage. Marriage and custody of dependents impact tax breaks a lot...

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Part of the problem, too, is people using "social issues" to refer to what are perhaps better termed "cultural issues."

Social issues are issues of hierarchy--that is, social class.

[Luveria]

I'm federalist on social issues and states rights on economic issues.

Social issues and economic issues are inseparable. They are literally the same damn thing!

They can be somewhat separate to a degree but it eventually gets to a point where the economic issues are social issues themselves.

[The Truth and Light]

Part of the problem, too, is people using "social issues" to refer to what are perhaps better termed "cultural issues."

Social issues are issues of hierarchy--that is, social class.

I'm going to ask you to never teach a humanities related course, ever.

[Regnum Dominae]

Part of the problem, too, is people using "social issues" to refer to what are perhaps better termed "cultural issues."

Social issues are issues of hierarchy--that is, social class.

Ok, fine, if you insist, I'm economically states rights and federalist on "cultural" issues.

[Bottle]

Part of the problem, too, is people using "social issues" to refer to what are perhaps better termed "cultural issues."

Social issues are issues of hierarchy--that is, social class.

Yeah, I honestly don't get how on earth people presume to separate economics from social issues. How do they think the exchange of money/resources occurs? Hell, how do they think money is defined?

[Lerodan Chinamerica]

Libertarianism is growing, as seen in the last election where the Libertarian party reached 1% for the first time*.

Except those two clauses in your sentence have nothing to do with one another, since the Libertarian Party is not a libertarian organization. The Libertarian party supports authoritarian reactionary capitalism, and libertarianism is anti-capitalist.

I've never seen a post loaded with more bullshit than that. Capitalism is the most free economic system in the world, it lets people who have nothing make something of themselves even if they have nothing. When unchained, capitalism can lead to oppression, but in this day and age, capitalism is the best we've got. Far better than the illogical rich-oppressing socialism and fantastical communism, which have given us more and more misguided dictators. Including your precious Hugo Chavez. Oh how I'm glad that another Putin-esque tyrant has left the world.