Replacing "Feminism"

[Sarkhaan]

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ ... ymore.html

Between years of debating around here and in the real world, I have always been entertained, if unsurprised, by the misunderstandings about the goals of feminism: due to the fact that it includes "fem", it has often been assumed to be pro-women, anti-man. At times in its history, this has been true (including, at times, anti-transgender women). Increasingly, however, the movement is fighting for gender equality and a break down of patriarch. Feminism succeeded in teaching little girls that they could do anything they wanted, but has thus far struggled to teach little boys and little queers that they, too, can do anything.

Feminism was successful in getting females in the media to more accurately display what a woman might actually think, feel, do, and say, but has not had the strength to break men out of their patriarchal roles (either as the "man of the house" in the 50's and 60's, or as the bumbling, lovable, overweight fool as with today).

Feminism as a concept (3rd wave, gender equality version) is still important, but it seems that the term is getting in the way of its own progress. Be it from poor marketing and explanation, or from resistance on the part of the majority, the term "feminism" conjures up images of female superiority. Is it time to abandon the term? Is there a more effective term we could use? Should feminism merge with other sexual and gender rights movements? Other social and civil rights groups?

I'd like to see a unified sexual and gender movement...one focused on equal treatment and protection regardless of gender identity, gender presentation, sex, sexual orientation, or the perception of these. I lack a good term for it, but would also eventually like to see it meld with groups supporting other minority rights.

[Ashmoria]

no reason not to have an umbrella term of "civil rights" and let those who work on specific issues decide for themselves what they want to call what they do.

[Faolinn]

*bashes his head against the wall violently*Oh my freaking God how many times do I have to remind people that feminism IS ABOUT EQUALITY!

[Cannot think of a name]

Is it that I'm just now noticing or has there been an increased trend in deciding that what's really the problem with these social issues is 'semantics'?

[Urumgard]

Is it that I'm just now noticing or has there been an increased trend in deciding that what's really the problem with these social issues is 'semantics'?

This... Feminism should remain being called feminism and if people do not educate themselves about what the vast majority of the movement stands for (namely, equality) then that is their problem, not that of feminism.

[Toronina]

*bashes his head against the wall violently*Oh my freaking God how many times do I have to remind people that feminism IS ABOUT EQUALITY!

Then why don't they rise up in countries like United Arab Emirates, they might get killed but then they are maytyrs now, an image to help other feminists. Instead you see them in countries like Australia and America where Equality is about 75% of the way there, there are Feminazis out in the world you

[Cannot think of a name]

*bashes his head against the wall violently*Oh my freaking God how many times do I have to remind people that feminism IS ABOUT EQUALITY!

Then why don't they rise up in countries like United Arab Emirates, they might get killed but then they are maytyrs now, an image to help other feminists. Instead you see them in countries like Australia and America where Equality is about 75% of the way there, there are Feminazis out in the world you

So...they shouldn't work to improve conditions in the countries they live in because they're almost fair, because some other country they don't live in has it worse?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Let's see. Radical feminists gave us the wonderful "trannies are invading our spaces, symbolically raping female bodies, deluded agents for the patriarchy" narrative and are still a powerful force in the feminist grassroots despite being pretty much destroyed in mainstream academic circles. "Modern" feminists usually mean well but repeatedly make infuriating statements denying and silencing trans experiences by spewing ill-thought out gender-abolitionist rhetoric or at least imply that we wouldn't exist if super duper feminism got to reform society.

Sure, there's overlap and individuals can bridge the two, but merging the trans* struggle with feminism? Nah, mate, no thanks.

[Ashmoria]

Is it that I'm just now noticing or has there been an increased trend in deciding that what's really the problem with these social issues is 'semantics'?

its annoying enough when people inside the various movements fight over semantics. we shouldn't have to put up with outsiders telling insiders what words they should use.

[Toronina]

Then why don't they rise up in countries like United Arab Emirates, they might get killed but then they are maytyrs now, an image to help other feminists. Instead you see them in countries like Australia and America where Equality is about 75% of the way there, there are Feminazis out in the world you

So...they shouldn't work to improve conditions in the countries they live in because they're almost fair, because some other country they don't live in has it worse?

Equality is almost there in places Like Aus and the US, shoudl they not try to rise up against those who are worse, I mean they complain about those places but do you see any feminists in Islamic Countries?

[Cannot think of a name]

So...they shouldn't work to improve conditions in the countries they live in because they're almost fair, because some other country they don't live in has it worse?

Equality is almost there in places Like Aus and the US, shoudl they not try to rise up against those who are worse, I mean they complain about those places but do you see any feminists in Islamic Countries?

You literally just restated your post again.

[Nailed to the Perch]

So...they shouldn't work to improve conditions in the countries they live in because they're almost fair, because some other country they don't live in has it worse?

Equality is almost there in places Like Aus and the US, shoudl they not try to rise up against those who are worse, I mean they complain about those places but do you see any feminists in Islamic Countries?

Yes. Many. One quite young one rather famously got shot in the head for her feminism last year. It is not anyone else's fault if you can't be bothered to read the news.

[Cannot think of a name]

Is it that I'm just now noticing or has there been an increased trend in deciding that what's really the problem with these social issues is 'semantics'?

its annoying enough when people inside the various movements fight over semantics. we shouldn't have to put up with outsiders telling insiders what words they should use.

It's a hard one to take seriously. "I'd be with you if it just wasn't called feminism...I'd be all about gays reacting positively about themselves in the face of a society that tells them they are dirty if they just didn't call it 'pride'..."

It all seems a bit...made up.

[Faolinn]

Let's see. Radical feminists gave us the wonderful "trannies are invading our spaces, symbolically raping female bodies, deluded agents for the patriarchy" narrative and are still a powerful force in the feminist grassroots despite being pretty much destroyed in mainstream academic circles. "Modern" feminists usually mean well but repeatedly make infuriating statements denying and silencing trans experiences by spewing ill-thought out gender-abolitionist rhetoric and imply that we wouldn't exist if super duper feminism got to reform society.

Sure, there's overlap and individuals can bridge the two, but merging the trans* struggle with feminism? Nah, mate, no thanks.

Those are not even 99% of them.I could throw a rock and it would have to by some miraculous occurrence fly halfway around the world to actually hit even one that thought that way.

[L Ron Cupboard]

Is it that I'm just now noticing or has there been an increased trend in deciding that what's really the problem with these social issues is 'semantics'?

Sewomantics

[Dumb Ideologies]

Let's see. Radical feminists gave us the wonderful "trannies are invading our spaces, symbolically raping female bodies, deluded agents for the patriarchy" narrative and are still a powerful force in the feminist grassroots despite being pretty much destroyed in mainstream academic circles. "Modern" feminists usually mean well but repeatedly make infuriating statements denying and silencing trans experiences by spewing ill-thought out gender-abolitionist rhetoric and imply that we wouldn't exist if super duper feminism got to reform society.

Sure, there's overlap and individuals can bridge the two, but merging the trans* struggle with feminism? Nah, mate, no thanks.

Those are not even 99% of them.I could throw a rock and it would have to by some miraculous occurrence fly halfway around the world to actually hit even one that thought that way.

Transphobic radical feminists are not exactly a thing of the past. And the amounts of crap I've heard from even "good" cuddly-wuddly liberal feminists which starts supportive and then slips off into about how in a more enlightened world trans* wouldn't be necessary - yeah. it's pretty damn tiresome. It's pretty annoying when "right-on" poorly-informed outsiders appropriate your struggles whilst not actually listening to what you say about yourselves.

[Faolinn]

Those are not even 99% of them.I could throw a rock and it would have to by some miraculous occurrence fly halfway around the world to actually hit even one that thought that way.

Transphobic radical feminists are not exactly a thing of the past. And the amounts of crap I've heard from even "good" cuddly-wuddly liberal feminists which starts supportive and then slips off into about how in a more enlightened world trans* wouldn't be necessary - yeah. it's pretty damn tiresome. It's pretty annoying when "right-on" poorly-informed outsiders appropriate your struggles whilst not actually listening to what you say about yourselves.

Well I can't say I've ever read, seen, or let alone heard anything of that sort from a feminist. However I must ask if you've ever considered that transwomen cannot be considered the exact same as one born a woman in mind and body? Not saying they shouldn't exist. They would not if they were not truly meant to be. They must serve some manner of function. Unless some manner of anomaly occurs they will be here long after any of us are dead.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Transphobic radical feminists are not exactly a thing of the past. And the amounts of crap I've heard from even "good" cuddly-wuddly liberal feminists which starts supportive and then slips off into about how in a more enlightened world trans* wouldn't be necessary - yeah. it's pretty damn tiresome. It's pretty annoying when "right-on" poorly-informed outsiders appropriate your struggles whilst not actually listening to what you say about yourselves.

Well I can't say I've ever read, seen, or let alone heard anything of that sort from a feminist. However I must ask if you've ever considered that transwomen cannot be considered the exact same as one born a woman in mind and body? Not saying they shouldn't exist. They would not if they were not truly meant to be. They must serve some manner of function. Unless some manner of anomaly occurs they will be here long after any of us are dead.

Tell me about how all other women are exactly the same.

[Faolinn]

Well I can't say I've ever read, seen, or let alone heard anything of that sort from a feminist. However I must ask if you've ever considered that transwomen cannot be considered the exact same as one born a woman in mind and body? Not saying they shouldn't exist. They would not if they were not truly meant to be. They must serve some manner of function. Unless some manner of anomaly occurs they will be here long after any of us are dead.

Tell me about how all other women are exactly the same.

If we're talking about individuals then I can drone on forever.I am not talking about specific people. I'm speaking in generalities and there can be differences between generalities.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Those are not even 99% of them.I could throw a rock and it would have to by some miraculous occurrence fly halfway around the world to actually hit even one that thought that way.

Transphobic radical feminists are not exactly a thing of the past. And the amounts of crap I've heard from even "good" cuddly-wuddly liberal feminists which starts supportive and then slips off into about how in a more enlightened world trans* wouldn't be necessary - yeah. it's pretty damn tiresome. It's pretty annoying when "right-on" poorly-informed outsiders appropriate your struggles whilst not actually listening to what you say about yourselves.

I can definitely see how that would be frustrating.

That said, I do think there's a difference between "if we were more enlightened, there wouldn't be trans* people!" and "in a world where no one gave a damn about gender, it's possible that people wouldn't identify as trans* or cis, but that world is so completely different from the one we actually live in that it's not exactly a relevant discussion to actual trans* people in the here and now." I think the latter is reasonable, but the former is...unhelpful, at best.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Tell me about how all other women are exactly the same.

If we're talking about individuals then I can drone on forever.I am not talking about specific people. I'm speaking in generalities and there can be differences between generalities.

Yeah, but the thing with generalizations is, they're generally crap. Trans women have exactly one way in which they universally differ from cis women: being trans. Which means no less and no more than what it says on the tin. They're not "less real" or "less feminine" (or "more real" or "more feminine"). They're just women.

Also, I am so weirded out by the idea that a group of people must "serve some manner of function" in order to exist. Exactly whom are they meant to be "serving functions" for? (Are trans women all caterers now? )

[Faolinn]

If we're talking about individuals then I can drone on forever.I am not talking about specific people. I'm speaking in generalities and there can be differences between generalities.

Yeah, but the thing with generalizations is, they're generally crap. Trans women have exactly one way in which they universally differ from cis women: being trans. Which means no less and no more than what it says on the tin. They're not "less real" or "less feminine" (or "more real" or "more feminine"). They're just women.

Also, I am so weirded out by the idea that a group of people must "serve some manner of function" in order to exist. Exactly whom are they meant to be "serving functions" for? (Are trans women all caterers now? )

Every individual has a purpose and all things that exist have a reason for being. Nothing in this world comes to be without a reason to be. We have overarching purposes which are general and then there are individual purposes which are diverse.I'd love to describe the rest of my philosophy but this is not a thread for metaphysical discourse.I cannot truly explain my beliefs in full without explaining all parts of it.They are interconnected as are all things.

[Dooom35796821595]

*bashes his head against the wall violently*Oh my freaking God how many times do I have to remind people that feminism IS ABOUT EQUALITY!

if it was about equality, it woulden't be FEMinism.

[Faolinn]

*bashes his head against the wall violently*Oh my freaking God how many times do I have to remind people that feminism IS ABOUT EQUALITY!

if it was about equality, it woulden't be FEMinism.

Men don't need an equivalent movement so it is a movement that crusades for women for they do need it.

[Dooom35796821595]

if it was about equality, it woulden't be FEMinism.

Men don't need an equivalent movement so it is a movement that crusades for women for they do need it.

this brings up the question of is equality good?
in a realistic way, not an excuse to discriminate, but men and women are biologically suited to preform predesigned tasks.
beside, often the best way to achieve equality is not to demand it, but earn it, for example Margaret thatcher was a massive waypoint in equality, yet didn't believe in feminism.