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Ron Paul, the Republican Party, and the Feminist Movement

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:17 pm
by Tahar Joblis
The Republican Party has a major problem on this hands. It begins with "Ron" and ends with "-ormfront.org."

In what started as a slow trickle with Strom Thurmond, Nixon's Southern Strategy, Jesse Helms, and Ronald Reagan's Southern Strategy, the Republican Party courted conservative Southern Democrats. It was politically expedient. Some would argue it was necessary for the continued survival of the Republican party; some would argue it was an inevitability following the Roosevelt-Roosevelt chain - Teddy pulled much of the Progressive wing out of the Republican party, and Franklin Deleno firmly planted a Progressive stamp on the Democratic party, and that left the Republicans with too narrow of a base of support to continue without reaching out to social conservatives.

But it happened. The Republicans positioned themselves in a political position where they became attractive to white nationalists; and ever since then, the national Republican party has had to police itself aggressively in order to prevent infiltration of the party machinery by white nationalists.

Five years ago, they faced another challenge: Ron Paul was running for president. Which he has continued to do pretty much to the present day, with a short vacation - three months at a time - during the gaps between the party convention and the general election. And Ron Paul's campaigns, with his background, his dog whistles, and his youth appeal at a time when Republicans desperately need to connect to the next generation, have provided a conduit for white nationalists into the party machinery. I would argue that the Republicans are by and large failing to police themselves; and are in great danger of being in service to white nationalists the way they have been in service to evangelicals.

A passionate minority coming to a larger group that struggles with having as many volunteers as they'd like, and struggles at reaching the larger population as well as they'd like to can come to exercise a disproportionate amount of power.

I've come to realize that the organized feminist movement - feminist lobbying groups, internet feminists, "professional feminists" who make their money producing feminist media for consumption, et cetera - has been having much the same problem. To be feminist does not and never has required that you hate men, or view women as superior to men.

But if you're misandrist, feminism is attractive, for the same reasons that the Republican party is attractive to white nationalists: They may not be fond of your real agenda, but they can advance policies in your interests. They have ideas you like. On the organizational level, feminist groups work for women's perceived interests - and only for women's perceived interests.

Feminists do criticize each other; but they have not effectively policed themselves. Possibly cannot; and even with the most extreme figures, such as Valerie Solanas, it's very difficult to effectively push forward the idea that they are not real feminists. Large numbers of feminists rallied to Solanas's defense, even as other feminists denounced her.

The only time feminists make a real effort to effectively police themselves is against dilution. The sort of policing feminism has done is against people like Warren Farrell - for trying to extend critical examination to the male gender role, and to address directly the harm done to men as men - and people like Sarah Palin, who disagree with key positions widely considered central to feminism by feminists [in particular, abortion rights].

Of the two, of course, it's harder to argue feminists have effectively excluded Palin from being called feminist; her right to identify herself as a feminist gets publicly defended, even as it stirs up controversy with the moment, and the defense is non-trivial even here on NSG. However, I would assert that she exercises very little control over the feminist movement.

The same is not true of the radicals. Robin Morgan led protests in favor of Valerie Solanas; and remained influential before and afterwards, most particular being editor-in-chief of Ms. Magazine [1989-1994]. There is no degree to which someone can be misandrist - not that I have observed - without remaining in the good graces of enough prominent feminists to make you considered "not feminist." The fact that reactionaries characterize any feminist as radical has not helped; it means that the criticism appropriately applied to extremists is one which rank-and-file feminists are used to hearing applied to moderates.

Today, the Republican party is in grave danger of being taken over entirely by radical elements. It perhaps already has been taken over entirely by radical elements; though, arguably, in the last two election cycles, the Republicans fielded the most nearly moderate presidential candidate out of the last four left in the running. [Paul, Huckabee, Romney, and McCain; Romney, Santorum, Gingrich, Paul].

And today, the feminist movement has a problem that few self-identified feminists seem willing to acknowledge. It is not a novel problem; not a strange problem; not a unique problem. But it is a problem nonetheless.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:42 pm
by Forsher
I'll be completely honest, what you're saying could be clearer.

Tahar Joblis wrote:A passionate minority coming to a larger group that struggles with having as many volunteers as they'd like, and struggles at reaching the larger population as well as they'd like to can come to exercise a disproportionate amount of power.

I've come to realize that the organized feminist movement - feminist lobbying groups, internet feminists, "professional feminists" who make their money producing feminist media for consumption, et cetera - has been having much the same problem. To be feminist does not and never has required that you hate men, or view women as superior to men.

But if you're misandrist, feminism is attractive, for the same reasons that the Republican party is attractive to white nationalists: They may not be fond of your real agenda, but they can advance policies in your interests. They have ideas you like. On the organizational level, feminist groups work for women's perceived interests - and only for women's perceived interests.

...

And today, the feminist movement has a problem that few self-identified feminists seem willing to acknowledge. It is not a novel problem; not a strange problem; not a unique problem. But it is a problem nonetheless.


I think I would be correct to say that the main point that you are making is mostly contained in these four paragraphs and that would be "radicalisation" if you will. Because extreme groups (let's call them feminazis) find elements of feminism favourable and because feminism is an established group the feminazis latch on. And if, so the argument goes, feminism uses that support it runs the risk of turning out like your example (the Republican Party).

I would agree if that's the case. Whatever anyone has to say about what should be the case, extreme elements are going to be more memorable and so colour the popular perception. Naturally, that means that extreme elements are more important.

Now, feminism has a further problem. Even if what I called feminazis were categorically rejected, they're probably still going to try and latch on anyway. Call it success by association. Much the same thing happens with "far-right" which tends to make people think of Nazis.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:50 pm
by EnragedMaldivians
I think at this point the feminists really should just collectively apologise for the myriad of ways in which they have constantly failed Tahar Joblis.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:57 pm
by Forsher
EnragedMaldivians wrote:I think at this point the feminists really should just collectively apologise for the myriad of ways in which they have constantly failed Tahar Joblis.


As I say quite often, which feminists under what definition? A dictionary's? (Which dictionary?) Yours? NOW's? (I think that's right.) Ashmoria's? (Linked in the OP.)

There's no single definition which is probably due to the umbrella term feminism being applied to a huge variety of people and organisations.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:02 pm
by EnragedMaldivians
Forsher wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:I think at this point the feminists really should just collectively apologise for the myriad of ways in which they have constantly failed Tahar Joblis.


As I say quite often, which feminists under what definition? A dictionary's? (Which dictionary?) Yours? NOW's? (I think that's right.) Ashmoria's? (Linked in the OP.)

There's no single definition which is probably due to the umbrella term feminism being applied to a huge variety of people and organisations.


Given his constant excoriation of 'the feminists' for not living up to his standards, not having his priorities and not paying attention to the things he thinks they should pay attention to, I would say that all of them, encompassing every definition, whether correct or incorrect, have failed him. Poor guy.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:13 pm
by Neo Art
EnragedMaldivians wrote:I think at this point the feminists really should just collectively apologise for the myriad of ways in which they have constantly failed Tahar Joblis.


Which, from his consistent screeds, the major, and perhaps, definitive way that feminists have failed not just TJ, but humanity in its collective form, is their stubborn and complete unwillingness to have sex with every man who offers to buy them dinner, or tells them they have nice tits.

Though, of course, given his own full admission, the most unforgiveable sin, on behalf of all feminists, and what drove him utterly from the movement, was that one time, like...5 fucking years ago, Bottle was mean to him.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:14 pm
by The Steel Magnolia
You know, I really should have stopped when I saw your avatar.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:18 pm
by Tahar Joblis
EnragedMaldivians wrote:I think at this point the feminists really should just collectively apologise for the myriad of ways in which they have constantly failed Tahar Joblis.

I'm only disappointed in some feminists. Some, I think, are quite positive influences on society today.

And others... well, I never expected anything good at all to come from "feminist" Sarah Palin, so it's really hard for her to disappoint me even if I hold a negative opinion of her.

I am disappointed in the movement as a whole as it appears to be presently behaving; I am certainly disappointed in some of NSG's so-called "feminists" for adopting anti-equality positions. I have used the label of "feminist" for myself, and am fairly self-satisfied.

So. Would you defend people referring to Valerie Solanas as a hero? How about referring to Lorena Bobbit as a hero?

David Duke? Nathaniel Bedford Forrest? Dworkin? There's a certain point where, if you don't want hateful types to affiliate themselves, even heavily influence, your movement, you need to engage in some significant self-policing; you need to reach the point where you can label various figures - current or historical - as not cool, even if they happen to have associated themselves with something resembling your cause.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:21 pm
by Tahar Joblis
Neo Art wrote:[assorted ad hominems]

Neo, do you have anything meaningful to say on the subject of radicalization? Ron Paul, perhaps? David Duke? Valerie Solanas? Femitheist?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:36 pm
by Tahar Joblis
Forsher wrote:I'll be completely honest, what you're saying could be clearer.

Tahar Joblis wrote:A passionate minority coming to a larger group that struggles with having as many volunteers as they'd like, and struggles at reaching the larger population as well as they'd like to can come to exercise a disproportionate amount of power.

I've come to realize that the organized feminist movement - feminist lobbying groups, internet feminists, "professional feminists" who make their money producing feminist media for consumption, et cetera - has been having much the same problem. To be feminist does not and never has required that you hate men, or view women as superior to men.

But if you're misandrist, feminism is attractive, for the same reasons that the Republican party is attractive to white nationalists: They may not be fond of your real agenda, but they can advance policies in your interests. They have ideas you like. On the organizational level, feminist groups work for women's perceived interests - and only for women's perceived interests.

...

And today, the feminist movement has a problem that few self-identified feminists seem willing to acknowledge. It is not a novel problem; not a strange problem; not a unique problem. But it is a problem nonetheless.


I think I would be correct to say that the main point that you are making is mostly contained in these four paragraphs and that would be "radicalisation" if you will. Because extreme groups (let's call them feminazis) find elements of feminism favourable and because feminism is an established group the feminazis latch on. And if, so the argument goes, feminism uses that support it runs the risk of turning out like your example (the Republican Party).

I would agree if that's the case. Whatever anyone has to say about what should be the case, extreme elements are going to be more memorable and so colour the popular perception. Naturally, that means that extreme elements are more important.

Now, feminism has a further problem. Even if what I called feminazis were categorically rejected, they're probably still going to try and latch on anyway. Call it success by association. Much the same thing happens with "far-right" which tends to make people think of Nazis.

Well, the "further problem" is pretty much insoluble in a free society.

Hateful extremists will try to latch onto your organization if it looks like it can be used to further their aims. The tricky part is making sure they don't go anywhere near the reins of power, and making sure people know that your organization disapproves of them.

This is very difficult if you openly invited them in, as with Reagan and evangelicals; but even talking on the informal level, it's not as difficult as it might seem at first. A single formal organization can expel people; feminism can't take away a Feminism Membership Card or anything.

Yet, as I've said, it's been relatively easy for modern feminism to successfully disown Warren Farrell, in spite of some fairly direct ties between Farrell and feminist organizations prior to his divergence from the feminist mainstream into the forbidden realm of asking #whataboutthemenz; and even conservative women who attempt to affiliate themselves as feminist have a great deal of difficulty having that affiliation accepted by the public, because the balance of effort by less controversially self-identified "feminists" is towards excluding them from the label.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:39 pm
by Nadkor
I clicked on this thread thinking "no, this even for him is too much, surely"

Then I saw this, in place of the OP:
This post was made by Tahar Joblis who is currently on your ignore list.


And I lol'd. I actually did.

Turns out it wasn't too much.

Nice to know that no matter how limited you think someone is they will constantly strive to outdo your expectations.

Strive on, TJ, strive on.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:47 pm
by Tahar Joblis
Nadkor wrote:I clicked on this thread thinking "no, this even for him is too much, surely"

Then I saw this, in place of the OP:
This post was made by Tahar Joblis who is currently on your ignore list.


And I lol'd. I actually did.

Turns out it wasn't too much.

Nice to know that no matter how limited you think someone is they will constantly strive to outdo your expectations.

Strive on, TJ, strive on.

So.

Let me ask this question:

Did you log out, in order to read through the OP? Or are you guessing what I've said based on the thread title?

Because I can think of a lot of different threads that could be titled "Ron Paul, the Republican Party, and the Feminist Movement," and it's a pretty piss-poor spin of the roulette wheel to guess which one of those I wrote if you're not actually seeing what I wrote. :eyebrow:

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:53 pm
by Ashmoria
to make your case that the feminist movement has been taken over by extremists you need to show that current feminist leaders are misandrists. a few examples from the past dont show the same progression as the republican party has had.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:57 pm
by Forsher
EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Forsher wrote:
As I say quite often, which feminists under what definition? A dictionary's? (Which dictionary?) Yours? NOW's? (I think that's right.) Ashmoria's? (Linked in the OP.)

There's no single definition which is probably due to the umbrella term feminism being applied to a huge variety of people and organisations.


Given his constant excoriation of 'the feminists' for not living up to his standards, not having his priorities and not paying attention to the things he thinks they should pay attention to, I would say that all of them, encompassing every definition, whether correct or incorrect, have failed him. Poor guy.


The first reference to "the feminists" in this thread was from you. I'd look further into TJ's posts to see if it's actually something he says but Neo Art will just call me a creep so I won't bother. As a result a concede that point. See? This is learning this; this is acknowledging that for some people trying to prove them wrong (that is, engage with their points) is the most horrible of crimes.

Much more interesting is this:

encompassing every definition, whether correct or incorrect


How do you know which ones are correct and which ones aren't? Well...

The Steel Magnolia wrote:You know, I really should have stopped when I saw your avatar.


This would imply it's of something?

Tahar Joblis wrote:
Forsher wrote:I'll be completely honest, what you're saying could be clearer.



I think I would be correct to say that the main point that you are making is mostly contained in these four paragraphs and that would be "radicalisation" if you will. Because extreme groups (let's call them feminazis) find elements of feminism favourable and because feminism is an established group the feminazis latch on. And if, so the argument goes, feminism uses that support it runs the risk of turning out like your example (the Republican Party).

I would agree if that's the case. Whatever anyone has to say about what should be the case, extreme elements are going to be more memorable and so colour the popular perception. Naturally, that means that extreme elements are more important.

Now, feminism has a further problem. Even if what I called feminazis were categorically rejected, they're probably still going to try and latch on anyway. Call it success by association. Much the same thing happens with "far-right" which tends to make people think of Nazis.

Well, the "further problem" is pretty much insoluble in a free society.

Hateful extremists will try to latch onto your organization if it looks like it can be used to further their aims. The tricky part is making sure they don't go anywhere near the reins of power, and making sure people know that your organization disapproves of them.

This is very difficult if you openly invited them in, as with Reagan and evangelicals; but even talking on the informal level, it's not as difficult as it might seem at first. A single formal organization can expel people; feminism can't take away a Feminism Membership Card or anything.

Yet, as I've said, it's been relatively easy for modern feminism to successfully disown Warren Farrell, in spite of some fairly direct ties between Farrell and feminist organizations prior to his divergence from the feminist mainstream into the forbidden realm of asking #whataboutthemenz; and even conservative women who attempt to affiliate themselves as feminist have a great deal of difficulty having that affiliation accepted by the public, because the balance of effort by less controversially self-identified "feminists" is towards excluding them from the label.


I will talk about NSG feminists in the same vein as Neo Art, Enraged Maldivians and Nadkor (who I single out because they're in this thread, apologies to The Steel Magnolia who I am not so familiar with). They categorically reject the idea of the likes of Femitheist Divine as being part of feminism. (I use Femitheist Divine because this is the only feminazi I have actually had the misfortune to read the ideas of.)

However, Femitheist Divine quite clearly tries to associate with feminism (the clue is in the name) and what I've read on the few threads where she was the subject, it works (you get problems along the lines of, "See, this is what's wrong with feminism").

So, that's an inability to unassociate from feminazism by feminists just restricted to the tiny subset of world called NSG. It's worth noting that there are "feminists" on NSG who are rejected by other "feminists".

Nadkor wrote:I clicked on this thread thinking "no, this even for him is too much, surely"

Then I saw this, in place of the OP:
This post was made by Tahar Joblis who is currently on your ignore list.


And I lol'd. I actually did.

Turns out it wasn't too much.

Nice to know that no matter how limited you think someone is they will constantly strive to outdo your expectations.

Strive on, TJ, strive on.


You would be aware that the point, as I've read it, is the difficulty with separating the sane from the insane; or, more accurately, getting rid of the insane from being considered anything like the sane?

Ashmoria wrote:to make your case that the feminist movement has been taken over by extremists you need to show that current feminist leaders are misandrists. a few examples from the past dont show the same progression as the republican party has had.


This is the first actually decent dissenting opinion. Congratulations Ashmoria. Take note other people. This post engages with the points offered in the post instead of trying to attack the points via the author (which isn't cool and, additionally, wouldn't be accepted in an evironment as formal as a school debate).

I agree with this. However, I also think that feminism is being increasingly viewed as more extreme than mainstream feminism actually is (because of the association of what I term feminazis). Would you agree with that?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:06 pm
by Nadkor
Forsher wrote:
Nadkor wrote:I clicked on this thread thinking "no, this even for him is too much, surely"

Then I saw this, in place of the OP:


And I lol'd. I actually did.

Turns out it wasn't too much.

Nice to know that no matter how limited you think someone is they will constantly strive to outdo your expectations.

Strive on, TJ, strive on.


You would be aware that the point, as I've read it, is the difficulty with separating the sane from the insane; or, more accurately, getting rid of the insane from being considered anything like the sane?


For me the point seems to be more like "okay so some feminists might actually be sane (might), but there's so many mental ones and I don't see any of you 'sane' feminists having a go at them so it's entirely your fault if I mix you all up together and address feminism as a whole as if the mental ones spoke for all of you" dressed up as something to do with Ron Paul/Republicans.

Why does it seem like that to me? Because that's what it is.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:06 pm
by Quebec and Atlantic Canada
ASB could write a better post. He could also do it without whining about THE FEMINISTS like he's Kenji Setou.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:07 pm
by Ashmoria
Forsher wrote: I agree with this. However, I also think that feminism is being increasingly viewed as more extreme than mainstream feminism actually is (because of the association of what I term feminazis). Would you agree with that?


2 thoughts:

1) the feminazi thing is used by ....well lets just call them blowhards because i doubt they want to keep women from acheivements...blowhards who use it as a way to discredit the movement as a whole. for example rush limbaugh who, if he did not coin the term himself has at least brought it to public notice, cherry picks a few outrageous quotes from throughout the ages and uses them over and over again to make it seem as if all feminists are extremists.

2) feminism has been so amazingly successful in my lifetime that it is hard to remember where we started 50 years ago. that makes it seem like feminism is only interested in extreme agendas because it cant be as simple as "equal pay for equal work" --everyone is in favor of that.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:11 pm
by EnragedMaldivians
Tahar Joblis wrote:
EnragedMaldivians wrote:I think at this point the feminists really should just collectively apologise for the myriad of ways in which they have constantly failed Tahar Joblis.

I'm only disappointed in some feminists. Some, I think, are quite positive influences on society today.

And others... well, I never expected anything good at all to come from "feminist" Sarah Palin, so it's really hard for her to disappoint me even if I hold a negative opinion of her.

I am disappointed in the movement as a whole as it appears to be presently behaving; I am certainly disappointed in some of NSG's so-called "feminists" for adopting anti-equality positions. I have used the label of "feminist" for myself, and am fairly self-satisfied.


So only a few feminists disappoint you but you think the movement as a whole is 'badly behaved'. K..

So. Would you defend people referring to Valerie Solanas as a hero? How about referring to Lorena Bobbit as a hero?

David Duke? Nathaniel Bedford Forrest? Dworkin? There's a certain point where, if you don't want hateful types to affiliate themselves, even heavily influence, your movement, you need to engage in some significant self-policing; you need to reach the point where you can label various figures - current or historical - as not cool, even if they happen to have associated themselves with something resembling your cause


So to summarise: You note that there are some unsavoury characters that elicit controversy within feminist circles. You found an OP-ed on the LA times and linked to one NSG poster's posts defending Sarah Palin's right to be included as a feminist. You thus assert that there's an epidemic of support, or at the very least, passive acceptance, within the feminist movement for feminist equivalents of figures such as David Duke, who are trying to usurp the movement for the benefit of a misandrist agenda. And here you are valiantly fighting against this sinister trend by warning us to take heed before it's too late.

I don't really know what to say.

Edit

Come to think of it, David Duke. David fucking Duke. Jesus Christ. :palm:

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:17 pm
by Forsher
Nadkor wrote:
Forsher wrote:
You would be aware that the point, as I've read it, is the difficulty with separating the sane from the insane; or, more accurately, getting rid of the insane from being considered anything like the sane?


For me the point seems to be more like "okay so some feminists might actually be sane (might), but there's so many mental ones and I don't see any of you 'sane' feminists having a go at them so it's entirely your fault if I mix you all up together and address feminism as a whole as if the mental ones spoke for all of you" dressed up as something to do with Ron Paul/Republicans.

Why does it seem like that to me? Because that's what it is.


It's reasonably close but you missed this bit:

Tahar Joblis wrote:Feminists do criticize each other; but they have not effectively policed themselves.


Therefore, I would ammend it to:

For me the point seems to be more like "okay so some feminists might actually be sane (might), but there's so many mental ones and I don't see any enough of you 'sane' feminists having a go at them so it's entirely your fault if I mix you all up together and address feminism as a whole as if the mental ones spoke for all of you" dressed up as something to do with Ron Paul/Republicans.


However, I personally feel it's still a little off. If mine makes what he says too reasonable than yours makes it too unreasonable; this would be due to our differing views. You love feminism, I disagree with its approach (I made a thread on that as some of you may recall).

Ashmoria wrote:
Forsher wrote: I agree with this. However, I also think that feminism is being increasingly viewed as more extreme than mainstream feminism actually is (because of the association of what I term feminazis). Would you agree with that?


2 thoughts:

1) the feminazi thing is used by ....well lets just call them blowhards because i doubt they want to keep women from acheivements...blowhards who use it as a way to discredit the movement as a whole. for example rush limbaugh who, if he did not coin the term himself has at least brought it to public notice, cherry picks a few outrageous quotes from throughout the ages and uses them over and over again to make it seem as if all feminists are extremists.


Oh... really? I've been using it like so:

Feminazi, noun, person who dresses misandrist views up as (or mixed in with) feminists positions.

What would you suggest I use instead, misandrists pretending to be feminists?

2) feminism has been so amazingly successful in my lifetime that it is hard to remember where we started 50 years ago. that makes it seem like feminism is only interested in extreme agendas because it cant be as simple as "equal pay for equal work" --everyone is in favor of that.


So, feminism is a victim of its own success? It has now reached a point where it has to really try hard to convince people that what's being discussed is actually an inequality?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:25 pm
by Ashmoria
Forsher wrote:


Ashmoria wrote:
2 thoughts:

1) the feminazi thing is used by ....well lets just call them blowhards because i doubt they want to keep women from acheivements...blowhards who use it as a way to discredit the movement as a whole. for example rush limbaugh who, if he did not coin the term himself has at least brought it to public notice, cherry picks a few outrageous quotes from throughout the ages and uses them over and over again to make it seem as if all feminists are extremists.


Oh... really? I've been using it like so:

Feminazi, noun, person who dresses misandrist views up as (or mixed in with) feminists positions.

What would you suggest I use instead, misandrists pretending to be feminists?

2) feminism has been so amazingly successful in my lifetime that it is hard to remember where we started 50 years ago. that makes it seem like feminism is only interested in extreme agendas because it cant be as simple as "equal pay for equal work" --everyone is in favor of that.


So, feminism is a victim of its own success? It has now reached a point where it has to really try hard to convince people that what's being discussed is actually an inequality?


i dont think you should use "feminazi" at all. it is a meaningless pejorative. if you want to point out that a particular feminist seems to be more interested in dissing men than fighting for equality i think it is a stronger point of you say it that way.

yeah, if you ask the average young woman "are you a feminist" she is likely to say "no". but if you ask her if she thinks that women should decide their own fates, take any job they are qualified for, have children or not as they prefer, etc they will all say "yes"

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:26 pm
by Death Metal
Tahar Joblis wrote:The Republican Party has a major problem on this hands. It begins with "Ron" and ends with "-ormfront.org."


Ronormfront.org?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:29 pm
by Nadkor
Forsher wrote:However, I personally feel it's still a little off. If mine makes what he says too reasonable than yours makes it too unreasonable; this would be due to our differing views. You love feminism, I disagree with its approach (I made a thread on that as some of you may recall).


I love feminism?

Well, yes. Of course I do. Because of feminism I can do crazy things like vote, go to university, get a job....

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:30 pm
by Forsher
Ashmoria wrote:
Forsher wrote:




Oh... really? I've been using it like so:

Feminazi, noun, person who dresses misandrist views up as (or mixed in with) feminists positions.

What would you suggest I use instead, misandrists pretending to be feminists?



So, feminism is a victim of its own success? It has now reached a point where it has to really try hard to convince people that what's being discussed is actually an inequality?


i dont think you should use "feminazi" at all. it is a meaningless pejorative. if you want to point out that a particular feminist seems to be more interested in dissing men than fighting for equality i think it is a stronger point of you say it that way.

yeah, if you ask the average young woman "are you a feminist" she is likely to say "no". but if you ask her if she thinks that women should decide their own fates, take any job they are qualified for, have children or not as they prefer, etc they will all say "yes"


But I want to use it to apply to people masquerading as feminists when they're not? (Which is what I thought it meant.)

Okay. I can agree with that.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:31 pm
by Forsher
Nadkor wrote:
Forsher wrote:However, I personally feel it's still a little off. If mine makes what he says too reasonable than yours makes it too unreasonable; this would be due to our differing views. You love feminism, I disagree with its approach (I made a thread on that as some of you may recall).


I love feminism?

Well, yes. Of course I do. Because of feminism I can do crazy things like vote, go to university, get a job....


What I meant was The Feminist Movement Today insofar as it exists.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:33 pm
by Tsaraine
Death Metal wrote:
Tahar Joblis wrote:The Republican Party has a major problem on this hands. It begins with "Ron" and ends with "-ormfront.org."


Ronormfront.org?


Yes, the Front for Romantic Normality! A terrible scourge, disapproving of the Republican itch to have anonymous gay sex in airport bathrooms.

As for the OP ... "Movements can fail to adequately distinguish themselves from radical fringes, and risk being co-opted by those fringes" is simple enough. I'm not sure if you can accurately claim that the Republican party is in danger of being co-opted by white nationalists; certainly they've demonstrated the ease with which they can be overtaken (by the Tea Party), but I've not heard anything that suggests they're courting or failing to adequately punish racism ... beyond the usual levels expected of a bunch of aging white conservatives. Which is to say there's a base level of simple inattention to matters of race (by virtue of being white and not having to think about such things) that one expects of the Republican gerontocracy; see for example their construction of an ideal 1950s utopia which never existed to hearken back to. The 1950s were less utopian if you were black, or a woman, or gay.

As for the feminist movement, I don't know enough about it to say.