Do you consider yourself to be a feminist, and why?

[Neo Art]

Aye, I'm sitting here frothing at the mouth because of something on the internet.

But then, it wouldn't be like a woman to keep calm and rational in a debate. Of course.

Oh now you're just being hysterical.

[The Emerald Dawn]

This feeds further into my point that your statement seems "Accept what I call Feminism or you are wrong". So, basically, you're deciding that only your interests have any pull.

You see, what you're doing there is twisting.

What I'm saying is "don't cater to people making their support for feminism conditional on the fulfilment of their demands for what feminism should be"

It's really quite different.

You say that this fictional person we're discussing is only interested in what they can get out of the situation.

I'm saying that someone who makes their support for a movement conditional on that movement doing what they want is more interested in getting what they can than in the movement succeeding, yes.

I'm not sure why you're finding this so difficult.

Which, strangely, is also what many self-described Feminists want. They being human and all, this is only to be expected.

Yes, you see you're missing basically all of the points there.

You're twisting things around in anger (yes, you mad) and then trying to pigeon-hole me into an opinion I don't hold so you can soap-box. Which is fine, to a point, but it isn't helpful.

Aye, I'm sitting here frothing at the mouth because of something on the internet.

But then, it wouldn't be like a woman to keep calm and rational in a debate. Of course.

I can only see what you type. If you mean something, say that. Don't say one thing and mean another, it's not only confusing, it's pointless.

Also, if you wish to imply that I feel you're angry because you're a woman, you'll have to point out where I said that. Because otherwise, you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Nadkor]

there's a better line than ridicule for dealing with those you consider uneducated.

It's not a matter of education, it's a matter of worldview. Some of the most educated people I've known have held what I consider to be repugnant views, while some of the least educated people I know have been the exact opposite.

It's a matter of worldview. And I'm yet to see a reason why anything other than ridicule isn't a waste of time.

[The Emerald Dawn]

there's a better line than ridicule for dealing with those you consider uneducated.

It's not a matter of education, it's a matter of worldview. Some of the most educated people I've known have held what I consider to be repugnant views, while some of the least educated people I know have been the exact opposite.

It's a matter of worldview. And I'm yet to see a reason why anything other than ridicule isn't a waste of time.

Then I can only hope to never end up as jaded as that.

[Falcania]

Feminism has a pretty serious problem with being taken seriously. I think jeering doesn't help that.

No it doesn't. It has a serious problem being taken seriously amongst people who aren't interested in equality between men and women.

I have no desire to waste breath convincing those people.

I think you do make a good point.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Sure, and that's great. I'm genuinely glad. But people who won't be convinced through "wow, your position is sexist garbage" also won't be convinced through "gosh, I don't agree with you, but that's okay." People who are actually open to changing their positions don't refuse to do so for stupid reasons. No one who really supports the equality of the genders refuses to call himself a feminist because "it has 'fem' right in the name and that makes it sound like I support icky GIRLS!" No one who really opposes racism gets pissed off because "how come black people get to use the n-word and I don't?" No one honestly thinks, "Well, I would support the equal treatment of women, but someone called me a misogynist, so I think women should get paid less than men for the same work now, so there!" If one is committed to bigotry, all the politeness in the world won't sway them, and if one is committed to equality, all the brusqueness in the world won't derail them. If someone refuses to support equality because a feminist (or a LGBT rights activist, or a civil rights activist, etc.) wasn't sufficiently deferential to them, they were never going to be on our side in the first place.

Yes, that's a very pretty tautology you have there, but I'm not sure what you intend to demonstrate by it. The fact is, the point is dead on. If someone makes their support for equality contingent upon the less privlidged class kissing their boot, then this person wasn't an ally to begin with and never will be.

Civil rights activists learned that lesson long ago. And that attitude is alive and well today. Hell, I had a guy on NSG less than two months ago state, repeatedly, that I should try being NICER to him if I wanted to convince him to care about women's rights.

He continued saying this long after I told him I wasn't particularly interested in that, and the equality movement would be better of simply waiting for him to die, than try and meet whatever conditions were required to gain his hollow token of support.

I'm just suggesting that a good way to make feminism look sensible probably isn't namecalling. Feminism is better than that.

Naah, there are decent folks who didn't know much about feminism who've learnt a lot from observing these debates, myself among them, and sometimes (this might seem like an odd thing to say) I've learnt the most from reading posts that treated the opposition's bigoted, misogynistic views with the contempt they deserved. Especially about why, in fact, it is important to treat bigoted, misogynistic opinions with they contempt that they deserve.

[Nadkor]

I can only see what you type

Apparently you can't, no.

Also, if you wish to imply that I feel you're angry because you're a woman, you'll have to point out where I said that. Because otherwise, you're barking up the wrong tree.

If in a discussion on feminism you declare that a woman who disagrees with you is 'angry' or "mad" (complete with all the inherent connotations of irrationality and hysteria that were widely attributed to women attempting to engage in debate with men in the past - and still are occasionally explicitly stated or alluded to) then you're being at best foolhardy.

[The Steel Magnolia]

Naah, there are decent folks who didn't know much about feminism who've learnt a lot from observing these debates, myself among them, and sometimes (this might seem like an odd thing to say) I've learnt the most from reading posts that treated the opposition's bigoted, misogynistic views with the contempt they deserved. Especially about why, in fact, it is important to treat bigoted, misogynistic opinions with they contempt that they deserve.

See this is why I actually debate on the internet, and actually read all the discussions I'm interested in, whether I participate or not. Even seeing these sorts of arguments can be incredibly educational, regardless of whether or not you succeed in convincing whoever you're arguing with, because that almost never actually happens. You're convincing people on the sidelines no matter what you do, and that's why these sorts of things are valuable. Because like it or not, they do convince and educate a lot of people, and that's important.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I can only see what you type

Apparently you can't, no.

Also, if you wish to imply that I feel you're angry because you're a woman, you'll have to point out where I said that. Because otherwise, you're barking up the wrong tree.

If in a discussion on feminism you declare that a woman who disagrees with you is 'angry' or "mad" (complete with all the inherent connotations of irrationality and hysteria that were widely attributed to women attempting to engage in debate with men in the past - and still are occasionally explicitly stated or alluded to) then you're being at best foolhardy.

No, I'm treating you as I would anyone else. I have, at best, faith that you are actually female. I take you at your word. As far as I'm concerned, you're all bots until proven otherwise. I'm not going to dance the dance of politically charged language with someone who has shown no need to regard politeness with anything more than a passing nod, and especially not when that same person would expect me to handicap myself in linguistic uses simply because of statements they pre-charge me with making.

[Nadkor]

Apparently you can't, no.



If in a discussion on feminism you declare that a woman who disagrees with you is 'angry' or "mad" (complete with all the inherent connotations of irrationality and hysteria that were widely attributed to women attempting to engage in debate with men in the past - and still are occasionally explicitly stated or alluded to) then you're being at best foolhardy.

No, I'm treating you as I would anyone else. I have, at best, faith that you are actually female. I take you at your word. As far as I'm concerned, you're all bots until proven otherwise. I'm not going to dance the dance of politically charged language with someone who has shown no need to regard politeness with anything more than a passing nod, and especially not when that same person would expect me to handicap myself in linguistic uses simply because of statements they pre-charge me with making.

Right enough, words that historically have been used in a circumstance to convey something in particular definitely don't carry any baggage when used in similar or the same circumstances.

My mistake.

[Rentarium]

I believe I am. I believe women have surpassed only being homemakers. That job lies with the State to assure proper education.

[Gravlen]

She's a witch!

Untrue. I definitely weigh more than any duck I've ever met.

Obviously you haven't met the Great Duck of Worthinghamshire. (Not to be confused with the Grand Duck of Whackingham.)

Also, hi, happy new year!

[Ifreann]

People who'll judge feminism by what two people say on the internet aren't really worth bothering about. Odds are they'll just buy into whatever stereotype of feminism gets presented to them first. Conversely, people who'll insist on getting an accurate view of feminism before deciding what they think of it aren't going to be put off by the odd bit of snark from random internet feminists.

In today's world, a lot of people get all their information from the interwebs. I'm not saying it's good, I think it is terrifying, but it is. Many, many very vocal self-ascribed Feminists on the internet are full of piss and vinegar, and while I agree with Neo Art in saying that Liberals don't need to be sponges, and can actually display vertebrate tendencies, there's a better line than ridicule for dealing with those you consider uneducated.

Likely a difference of opinion, and a study in personality archetypes, but in the same vein I'm pretty confident that I change a lot of people's minds by being kinder to them than I do by pulling out the NCO-tier sarcasm.

It's nothing to do with considering some people to be uneducated and everything to do with acknowledging that some people just aren't going to stop and think that hey, maybe Neo Art isn't representative of all feminists, maybe Nadkor wasn't appointed their internet spokes-man -woman -person by popular vote, maybe Nailed to the Perch isn't the chosen prophet and avatar of the Great Vagina Goddess(blessed be Her Holy Labia). Some people are going to think "Well that guy's a dick, fuck this feminism shit" and there's no realistic reaction to that except to shrug and leave them to it until and unless they disabuse themselves of the notion that political movements can be judged by a few posts on NSG. Maybe have a laugh or two at their expense. There's nothing to be gained by fretting over people who'll jump ship when someone is sarcastic at them.

[The Emerald Dawn]

In today's world, a lot of people get all their information from the interwebs. I'm not saying it's good, I think it is terrifying, but it is. Many, many very vocal self-ascribed Feminists on the internet are full of piss and vinegar, and while I agree with Neo Art in saying that Liberals don't need to be sponges, and can actually display vertebrate tendencies, there's a better line than ridicule for dealing with those you consider uneducated.

Likely a difference of opinion, and a study in personality archetypes, but in the same vein I'm pretty confident that I change a lot of people's minds by being kinder to them than I do by pulling out the NCO-tier sarcasm.

It's nothing to do with considering some people to be uneducated and everything to do with acknowledging that some people just aren't going to stop and think that hey, maybe Neo Art isn't representative of all feminists, maybe Nadkor wasn't appointed their internet spokes-man -woman -person by popular vote, maybe Nailed to the Perch isn't the chosen prophet and avatar of the Great Vagina Goddess(blessed be Her Holy Labia). Some people are going to think "Well that guy's a dick, fuck this feminism shit" and there's no realistic reaction to that except to shrug and leave them to it until and unless they disabuse themselves of the notion that political movements can be judged by a few posts on NSG. Maybe have a laugh or two at their expense. There's nothing to be gained by fretting over people who'll jump ship when someone is sarcastic at them.

If taken as ones and twos, sure. But if their experience is filled mostly with people like NA, NttP, or even me because honestly I'm not the best rep for egalitarianism, then they are going to experience only the bad, the angry, the jaded. I'm not saying that we all MUST be wonderful and cheerful, and spreading rose petals and friendship and understanding and beauty. I'm just saying that it is to be expected that a lot of people are going to say: "Man, this lady was a bitch to me when I said how I felt". Which is going to lead to "YOU CALLED ME A BITCH?" Which is going to lead to, "YES. Because you were being a fucking bitch!" and then everyone is throwing recriminations and pre-charging people with malicious intent before anyone hits the "Calm the fuck down" button and everyone reverts to civility.

[Neo Art]

But if their experience is filled mostly with people like NA

NA was on the Harvard Law School student committe that wrote the amicus brief in Goodridge. NA has been an advising attorney for GLAD for half a decade. NA was involved in helping draft the memoranda submitted in the first circuit's successful challenge of DOMA, which is now headed to the Supreme Court.

NA has done far more for the general progressive causes than merely snark on a message board. That's just what NA does for fun.

[Neo Art]

maybe Nailed to the Perch isn't the chosen prophet and avatar of the Great Vagina Goddess(blessed be Her Holy Labia).

...not sure what to make of this...do you spend a lot of time thinking about her vagina?

[Ifreann]

But if their experience is filled mostly with people like NA

NA was on the Harvard Law School student committe that wrote the amicus brief in Goodridge. NA has been an advising attorney for GLAD for half a decade. NA was involved in helping draft the memoranda submitted in the first circuit's successful challenge of DOMA, which is now headed to the Supreme Court.

NA has done far more for the general progressive causes than merely snark on a message board. That's just what NA does for fun.

Also, I hear he's Batman.

[Neo Art]

NA was on the Harvard Law School student committe that wrote the amicus brief in Goodridge. NA has been an advising attorney for GLAD for half a decade. NA was involved in helping draft the memoranda submitted in the first circuit's successful challenge of DOMA, which is now headed to the Supreme Court.

NA has done far more for the general progressive causes than merely snark on a message board. That's just what NA does for fun.

Also, I hear he's Batman.

Also something he does for fun.

[The Emerald Dawn]

But if their experience is filled mostly with people like NA

NA was on the Harvard Law School student committe that wrote the amicus brief in Goodridge. NA has been an advising attorney for GLAD for half a decade. NA was involved in helping draft the memoranda submitted in the first circuit's successful challenge of DOMA, which is now headed to the Supreme Court.

NA has done far more for the general progressive causes than merely snark on a message board. That's just what NA does for fun.

And that's good. But if they only experience the snark on the boards, how do they see the non-snark?

I was an active member, and eventually NCOIC, of the joint MEO-sexual assault/harrassment program in Washington D.C. that helped force the recent high-priority attention that brought a retired general to bear on the AFA, because that college is flat-fucked.

I volunteered for it, and worked at least five hours a night on it, in addition to my normal details. I'm glad you are active in something you have concerns over, I wish more people would be.

[Neo Art]

And that's good. But if they only experience the snark on the boards, how do they see the non-snark?

That presumes that the bulk of the people I interact with are from NSG. That's a strange presumption to make. This isn't activism. This is not "the good fight". This is fucking around to kill time.

It's like people who try to be all clever when accusing me of making bad arguments by saying "I thought you were a lawyer!" Yeah, I am. I get paid to be. When I was in the private sector my time was billed out at $350 an hour. You want me to put on my lawyer pants and make an argument putting forth all my intellect, education and training?

Write me a fucking check.

[The Emerald Dawn]

And that's good. But if they only experience the snark on the boards, how do they see the non-snark?

That presumes that the bulk of the people I interact with are from NSG. That's a strange presumption to make. This isn't activism. This is not "the good fight". This is fucking around to kill time.

It's like people who try to be all clever when accusing me of making bad arguments by saying "I thought you were a lawyer!" Yeah, I am. I get paid to be. When I was in the private sector my time was billed out at $350 an hour. You want me to put on my lawyer pants and make an argument putting forth all my intellect, education and training?

Write me a fucking check.

You have lawyer pants?

....is it part of a suit?

(Shoots self for pun.)

[Gravlen]

That presumes that the bulk of the people I interact with are from NSG. That's a strange presumption to make. This isn't activism. This is not "the good fight". This is fucking around to kill time.

It's like people who try to be all clever when accusing me of making bad arguments by saying "I thought you were a lawyer!" Yeah, I am. I get paid to be. When I was in the private sector my time was billed out at $350 an hour. You want me to put on my lawyer pants and make an argument putting forth all my intellect, education and training?

Write me a fucking check.

You have lawyer pants?

....is it part of a suit?

(Shoots self for pun.)

It's a suit made of cats. *nod*

[Neo Art]

You have lawyer pants?

....is it part of a suit?

(Shoots self for pun.)

It's a suit made of cats. *nod*

I hate every single fucking one of you.

[The Emerald Dawn]

It's a suit made of cats. *nod*

I hate every single fucking one of you.

Isn't that a requirement for passing the board?

[Nailed to the Perch]

Untrue. I definitely weigh more than any duck I've ever met.

Obviously you haven't met the Great Duck of Worthinghamshire. (Not to be confused with the Grand Duck of Whackingham.)

Also, hi, happy new year!

True, I haven't encountered His Eminent Quackiness in person - but given the sheer volume of Christmas food I've consumed in the last couple of weeks, I think I may still have the Great Duck beat.

Happy new year to you, too.