Your thoughts on nationalism

[Shard_Head]

Out of genuine interest, how do you imagine a transition to such a system could be best achieved?

If border controls were removed, people would move around more and gravitate to the places that suited them most.

I was kind of hoping for something that would more address the concerns of those who would see a massive rapid shift of those who have benefited from community investment to areas with already existant superior infrastructure, etc.

[Disserbia]

Nationalism used to have a great liberating influence when it first developed in the form known to us today, in the 19th century. However, like all ideologies, except perhaps pacifism (although I am not 100 % sure on that one...) it can be used to lead people to war, and if it can be used, it will be. So, it would be nice if one day we could do without nationalism, but we have to acknowledge the realities at the moment.

Just because something is a last resort doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Sometimes what one has to give up to leave in "peace" isn't worth it.

[Zottistan]

I don't see the purpose for it. It's irrational.

[L Ron Cupboard]

If border controls were removed, people would move around more and gravitate to the places that suited them most.

I was kind of hoping for something that would more address the concerns of those who would see a massive rapid shift of those who have benefited from community investment to areas with already existant superior infrastructure, etc.

There would inevitably be bad things that would happen, the same as there are now. In the current situation the American car manufacturing declines and the jobs move overseas, but the people can't follow them.

[Shard_Head]

I was kind of hoping for something that would more address the concerns of those who would see a massive rapid shift of those who have benefited from community investment to areas with already existant superior infrastructure, etc.

There would inevitably be bad things that would happen, the same as there are now. In the current situation the American car manufacturing declines and the jobs move overseas, but the people can't follow them.

Fuck it. My curiosity has well and truly died in the face of vagueness.

[Kemalist]

I hate right-wing fascist ethnic nationalists, but I advocate left-wing nationalism which is more about patriotism, fully independentism, popular sovereigntism, anti-imperialism, social equality and territorial nationalism.

The EU is a trade union, not a cultural union.

If it was a cultural union, they'd kick Turkey out.

Why are yo so prejudiced ? Turkish culture is pretty westernized. All of the members of the EU do not share the same culture, there are obvious differences depending on the regional location...

[Yankee Empire]

I don't see the purpose for it. It's irrational.

ON WHAT GROUNDS!?

[Tairoth]

Personally, i hate it with passion as it, along with religion, are the major causes of war. Why would you be proud of where you were born? It is just land. It is not nearly as important as people make it up to be. It is just a tribal instinct. We should try to avoid and try to control this instinct, as it barely has any actual importance, as well as the fact that it is the only way that the world might actually unite itself.

Nothing Is really wrong with Nationalism. It shows your love for the country you live in.


Its Facism you should hate which is an extreme form on Nationalism.

Oh and by the way IT MAY BE A TRBAL INSTINCT BUT THEY MUST OF HAD SOME FORM OF NATIONALISM TO.

And you should be proud of where you were born because of the History and Culture that LAND has.

But i agree with you on Religion, its an Abomination.

asshole!

[Anarcho Syndicalista]

Nobody can decipher my blatant sarcasm. Sad world but to be expected.

[Yorkopolis]

I hate right-wing fascist ethnic nationalists, but I advocate left-wing nationalism which is more about patriotism, fully independentism, popular sovereigntism, anti-imperialism, social equality and territorial nationalism.

This is pretty much where I stand, too.

Nobody can decipher my blatant sarcasm. Sad world but to be expected.

I saw it, but didn't take too much notice. Should warn you that there are people here that are so radically against nationalism that they will seek to hunt you down and piss on you until you give up.

[Yankee Empire]

Nobody can decipher my blatant sarcasm. Sad world but to be expected.

I hate these types of threads to be honest I think i'll stop posting in them.

Self indulgent Narcissistic threads. "What is/are you ____ on/about _____?

Leave an opinion and don't bother to substantiate it in any way..."

[Divair]

It's silly and something that I hope we manage to put behind us.

[Yankee Empire]

Case and point, claims with no explanation of reasoning...

[Vestr-Norig]

I am a nationalist in many ways, I would say. Firstly, I believe my region should be independent (Western Norway), our of economical, geographical, cultural and historical reasons. Secondly, I love my country of all my hearth, it's culture, history, landscape, etcetera. Nationalism is not about believing your own nation is superior to others, but simply love for your nation because of the fact that it is your nation. Just as much as nationalism is about love for your own nation, nationalism is also about respect for other nations, and the belief that every people should have their own nation, where it is their own people who is in charge of no other nation than their own.

[Voerdeland]

I'm OK with progressive nationalism, but I hate reactionary nationalism (you know, the kind aligned to racism and religious bigotry) with passion.

[Fnordgasm 5]

I've no need for it. I don't really understand it. You had no hand in being born there, you didn't contribute to the past accomplishments of individuals and groups who were born there and unless you contributed directly you've had very little to do with your nations present achievements so why be proud? And if you are to be proud why allow your pride to be limited to arbitrary boundaries? Honestly, I find nationalism to be somewhat egotistical. Ultimately, people are proud of their nations not for their achievements or status but for the fact that the nation produced them.

[Yankee Empire]

I've no need for it. I don't really understand it. You had no hand in being born there, you didn't contribute to the past accomplishments of individuals and groups who were born there and unless you contributed directly you've had very little to do with your nations present achievements so why be proud? And if you are to be proud why allow your pride to be limited to arbitrary boundaries? Honestly, I find nationalism to be somewhat egotistical. Ultimately, people are proud of their nations not for their achievements or status but for the fact that the nation produced them.

I'm a nationalist specifically because of my nations achievments, also I've dicovered that Nationalism doesn't need to be opposed to Cosmoplitanism or Internationalism.

[Fnordgasm 5]

I've no need for it. I don't really understand it. You had no hand in being born there, you didn't contribute to the past accomplishments of individuals and groups who were born there and unless you contributed directly you've had very little to do with your nations present achievements so why be proud? And if you are to be proud why allow your pride to be limited to arbitrary boundaries? Honestly, I find nationalism to be somewhat egotistical. Ultimately, people are proud of their nations not for their achievements or status but for the fact that the nation produced them.

I'm a nationalist specifically because of my nations achievments, also I've dicovered that Nationalism doesn't need to be opposed to Cosmoplitanism or Internationalism.

No, it doesn't need to be opposed but there's something within that mindset that certainly encourages such opposition.

Judging by your name I assume you're American? How do you deal with the less than moral acts your country has committed? How do they stack up against it's achievements?

[Yankee Empire]

I'm a nationalist specifically because of my nations achievments, also I've dicovered that Nationalism doesn't need to be opposed to Cosmoplitanism or Internationalism.

No, it doesn't need to be opposed but there's something within that mindset that certainly encourages such opposition.

Judging by your name I assume you're American? How do you deal with the less than moral acts your country has committed? How do they stack up against it's achievements?

I condemn what I see as my nations wrongs and applaud by what I see as it's goods. I would say personally from what i've viewed my nations Vitues and deeds outweigh it Vices and Crimes.

This explains my sentiment accurately,"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."-Carl Schurz

[Jon Island]

It seems much of the debate here revolves around people having a different concept of nationalism. Is it national superiority, or (arguably) healthy patriotism. In either case, for me it only becomes problematic when one views their nation as more significant/entitled than another. I am not a fan of rather us than them attitude - it would be better we work together as a global community to overcome problems as opposed to squabbling over oil, perhaps pool resources into finding a suitable replacement. Anyway, the question really that defines your position in my eyes, are you prouder of being from -your nation- than you are of being a human? Of you're rationality? If the answer somehow is yes, then we're set be fundamentally disagreeing. However I feel most would assert that latter, in this instance then if you believe you're prouder of your humanity - what about your country makes it any better than anyone else's. Examine what you find the answer to be and instead of advocating you're entire country as a value, advocate yourself as a believer in the value itself.

What I mean to say, using an example - and I in no way want to jump on some anti-American bandwagon which is fairly fashionable, yet it does seem to happen the most with some American patriots. They see the word American as synonymous with freedom, yet it is no more 'free' than most of the 'civilised' world'. If you mean democracy, then plenty of countries have it, all across the word. So if you advocate democracy, know why and say so.

As to my own stance, I wouldn't describe myself as either nationalistic, or patriotic if there is indeed much difference. However, I am patriotic to a lesser extent. I must admit being British, a small stupid part of me feels a twinge of pride at knowing once such a tiny Island ruled most of the world. The rational part of me however knows that was due to military might and a lot of exploitation, it's certainly not something I'd want Britain to be known for in the modern era. Also I feel Brit's tend to reserve the right to be self loathing, we love to moan about everything but when someone else insults Britain that's when a flare of patriotism appears within us. A part of me is proud of our sense of humour, our comedies and our panel shows. Which seems odd. I'm also proud of the BBC (sometimes) and the NHS. I guess this is because, I believe in a free healthcare as much as I believe in free education. I also believe in a freedom of information, without political/financial bias. Everyone's entitled to a base level of facilities by right, it's only fair to provide such a platform to make social mobility a possibility. So when I say I'm proud to be British, it's more I'm proud of somethings Britain does, in reality... I'm not all that proud of Britain. I dislike our current government, our anti-EU stance (I am not however an advocate of the Euro and am glad we aren't a part of that). I dislike the football hooliganism culture and the way most the country seems to be, at least on the weekend, drunken, violent morons. I could go on, but the basic point is made better already here;

I've no need for it. I don't really understand it. You had no hand in being born there, you didn't contribute to the past accomplishments of individuals and groups who were born there and unless you contributed directly you've had very little to do with your nations present achievements so why be proud? And if you are to be proud why allow your pride to be limited to arbitrary boundaries? Honestly, I find nationalism to be somewhat egotistical. Ultimately, people are proud of their nations not for their achievements or status but for the fact that the nation produced them.

If you're proud, it should be of something the country currently stands for, or exhibits and of that in itself. It could also be you love the landscape, the culture and all that is fine. Just remember by the nature of something like culture, there is no real 'best'... you may find one preferable to another, heck some may be downright outdated and immoral in your opinion and it's okay to condemn belief if your basis is rational. However, it is entirely possible to have two different, civil and good but utterly distinct cultures and yours is not better by merit of you being born there. That kind of nationalism is purely based in the arbitrary and the selfish.

[Yankee Empire]

Though i'm not of the mind i can certainly see why Superiority may seem like a valide belief and say for instance there's not enough of something vital to go around? Then do you take it via force for the good of "your own" to the expense of others, and if you succeed who is to claim you're not indeed superior?

For example Romans(and Ottomans) saw themselves as superior to those they conquered through virtue of conquest, obviously they were inferior warriors correct? Sense they lost the war?


Of Course you could debate endlessly about intrinsic value.

[Jon Island]

Though i'm not of the mind i can certainly see why Superiority may seem like a valide belief and say for instance theirs not enough of something vital to go around? Then do you take it via force for thegood of "your own" to the expense of others, and if you succeed who is to claim you're not indeed superior?

You would then be 'superior' by right of domination, I would assert you'd also be morally inferior. Essentially a thief or worse, depending on what it is you're taking. That however is not the point, in these instances this 'finite' thing we are fighting over is finite. Eventually it'll run out, it's a short term and stupid thing to hate each other for... especially when we could be working together on providing an alternative for whatever finite thing this hypothetical situation is about. Eventually, I'd like to hope we have a respected set of global laws, legislating things such as morality, but extending to the economy. If we all have the same basis, it's fairer - like global minimum wage laws. It may seem a distant impossibility, yet that's what I'd like to see. The kind of spirit you see at the Olympics where everyone comes together, to simultaneously be proud of their nation and marvel at the spectacle of human achievement, in an environment of fair play and respect. I do not feel we're so fundamentally and hugely different that our 'culture' and our history make this impossible. I hope in time, with education we will leave behind this kind of national memory and combative, us and them spirit. It's a long way off, but you have to start somewhere.

[Yankee Empire]

But what of people who oppose this, inevitably in order to bring this about you would have to deal with them or else the world wouldn't truly be united, this would almost certainly lea to war, and just another time in human history where men lay down their lives for what they believe is right.

That's the root of War I believe, not any specific thing ideology or faith.

Just an inability to live an let live because of the intrinsic incompatability of certain ideals and concepts. This is why it's unavoidable and inevitable. Unless you create a hive mind or something...

And even when you don't have war you have the discontent of those who live within a system they despise, and when that happens, then your just rule in their eyes is oppression.

Nations in a sense are created out of this, along with ability to organize, and transport (or lack of the ability to) people to differant parts of the world.

Yeah some borders are artifical, but many are natural, mountains, rivers, heavy woodlands, Tundra,Deserts etc.

[Fnordgasm 5]

I've no need for it. I don't really understand it. You had no hand in being born there, you didn't contribute to the past accomplishments of individuals and groups who were born there and unless you contributed directly you've had very little to do with your nations present achievements so why be proud? And if you are to be proud why allow your pride to be limited to arbitrary boundaries? Honestly, I find nationalism to be somewhat egotistical. Ultimately, people are proud of their nations not for their achievements or status but for the fact that the nation produced them.

If you're proud, it should be of something the country currently stands for, or exhibits and of that in itself. It could also be you love the landscape, the culture and all that is fine. Just remember by the nature of something like culture, there is no real 'best'... you may find one preferable to another, heck some may be downright outdated and immoral in your opinion and it's okay to condemn belief if your basis is rational. However, it is entirely possible to have two different, civil and good but utterly distinct cultures and yours is not better by merit of you being born there. That kind of nationalism is purely based in the arbitrary and the selfish.

That seems fair enough but how many countries actually live by the values they extol? How many nations are virtuous enough not to drop their values whenever it is convenient to do so?

[Jon Island]

I guess it all depends on how pessimistic you are in regards to human nature and our ability to overcome our baser, natural selfishness. Certainly, currently I believe very few if any nations are virtuous first and self interested second, the leaders are elected to look at for the electorates best interests and need to stay their favour. I'm not an idealist myself, in that I don't think we can ever be perfect and reconciled entirely, but nonetheless I think we should be idealistic in our aspiration even if not in actuality. As such this kind of thing would be a slow globalising process, one of which I think is slowly (or not so slowly) happening. The conflict of culture may well produce war, maybe we're even doomed to repeat this in a cycle forever. However, the case is we simply don't know - to assert that humanity can never live in a better, more unified world I believe detrimental.

Firstly, we're all at a base level the same. We have the same basic needs and biological make up. All the other stuff, culture, political-bias we pick up along the way. I believe it is possible, like as is attempted with the UN and civil rights - to legislate globally and fairly. I think nationalism often opposes our progress as a species. Even natural borders are arbitrary now - we have boats, plains, the internet - we can go anywhere on the globe, they don't limit us anymore. Hopefully the cycle of war, if it can't be replace with debate and compromise - will at least result in a unified Earth. Where of course disagreement will still exist, but it will be on issues, not territory.