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California May Ban "Gay Conversion" Therapy

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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:07 pm

Ovisterra wrote:
Sidhae wrote:You know, it's kind of amusing how seriously people tend to take this kind of trivialities. Seems like the political circles are full of sexually-frustrated sociopaths with a pathological urge to regulate how their fellow citizens use their genitals, one way or another, and they seem to have enough like-minded folk among the masses as well.

I find there are plenty of more important things that could use some regulation than whether it's appropriate or not to try and cure sexual deviants, so I neither condemn nor applaud California's decision, just pity them for failing to address more important issues. But then again, knowing their leftie liberal ways, it's rather unsurprising.


I'm often disappointed when some people on NS generalise sweepingly, but knowing their conservative ways, it's hardly surprising.


Sidhae's a Nazi.
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The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

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Madredia
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Postby Madredia » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:08 pm

Leepaidamba wrote:
Madredia wrote:
Oh really, because if a 35 year old and his sister have sex thats harming children right? And by liberal I'm not referring to political labels (I don't really like political labels) I'm referring to your apparent social and moral views. Lets not even use the word liberal anymore because it has to many different connotations attached to it. I'm not an economic liberal, but I do believe in personal freedoms. It gets confusing.

How then could you possibly advocate for the criminalization of homosexuality, even if as an alternative to a perceived inconsistency.


I don't advocate the illegalization of homosexuality. However I do find it immoral (don't even go into attacking that belief because I'm tired of trying to defend it.)

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:08 pm

Madredia wrote:Anyway I'm back to the main topic, even if these camps don't work people should be allowed to attend. Its not like they're getting govt. funding. If almost everyone who went to fat camp came back still fat would you shut it down? Or better yet, why not first take all those weight loss products that don't work off the market. Or actually you know what, just go ahead and ban tarot card readings and crystal balls while you're at it.


Gay conversion is a shame and solves nothing. In fact it could lead to further problems as a homosexual is being indoctrinated they are sick.

Fat camps (if they are handled right) actually help people.

Tarot cards and crystall balls are a non-sequitur.
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:09 pm

Madredia wrote:
Leepaidamba wrote:How then could you possibly advocate for the criminalization of homosexuality, even if as an alternative to a perceived inconsistency.


I don't advocate the illegalization of homosexuality. However I do find it immoral (don't even go into attacking that belief because I'm tired of trying to defend it.)

If your not able to defend a belief then perhaps you shouldn't have it.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:10 pm

Madredia wrote:Anyway I'm back to the main topic, even if these camps don't work people should be allowed to attend. Its not like they're getting govt. funding. If almost everyone who went to fat camp came back still fat would you shut it down? Or better yet, why not first take all those weight loss products that don't work off the market. Or actually you know what, just go ahead and ban tarot card readings and crystal balls while you're at it.

The difference is that "Gay Conversion" camps inflict real physical and psychological harm on the their prisoners.

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Madredia
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Postby Madredia » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:11 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Madredia wrote:
Oh really, because if a 35 year old and his sister have sex thats harming children right? And by liberal I'm not referring to political labels (I don't really like political labels) I'm referring to your apparent social and moral views. Lets not even use the word liberal anymore because it has to many different connotations attached to it. I'm not an economic liberal, but I do believe in personal freedoms. It gets confusing.

No you don't. You believe in making things that harm noone illegal. You believe in restricting the rights of a minority.


Dude where did you get that idea! I'm not in support homosexual marriage arguments (because giving people a certificate of marriage isn't a right) but I don't believe homosexuals should have any less rights than me.

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:11 pm

Madredia wrote:
Leepaidamba wrote:How then could you possibly advocate for the criminalization of homosexuality, even if as an alternative to a perceived inconsistency.


I don't advocate the illegalization of homosexuality. However I do find it immoral (don't even go into attacking that belief because I'm tired of trying to defend it.)


It's simple really.

Moral codes are only for ourselves. Don't expect others to follow them.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:12 pm

Madredia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:No you don't. You believe in making things that harm noone illegal. You believe in restricting the rights of a minority.


Dude where did you get that idea! I'm not in support homosexual marriage arguments (because giving people a certificate of marriage isn't a right) but I don't believe homosexuals should have any less rights than me.


That's a good start. How about a gay couple kissing in public?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:12 pm

Madredia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:No you don't. You believe in making things that harm noone illegal. You believe in restricting the rights of a minority.


Dude where did you get that idea! I'm not in support homosexual marriage arguments (because giving people a certificate of marriage isn't a right) but I don't believe homosexuals should have any less rights than me.

The fact that you don't see the contradiction in that statement is rather telling.

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Leepaidamba
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Postby Leepaidamba » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:14 pm

Madredia wrote:
Leepaidamba wrote:How then could you possibly advocate for the criminalization of homosexuality, even if as an alternative to a perceived inconsistency.


I don't advocate the illegalization of homosexuality. However I do find it immoral (don't even go into attacking that belief because I'm tired of trying to defend it.)

Have you not said that homosexuality should be illegal? Yes? I thought so.
You advocate for people to be taken away the right to have consensual sex in certain circumstances, therefore you can't say you believe in personal freedoms without adding in qualifiers.
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Madredia
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Postby Madredia » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:15 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Madredia wrote:Anyway I'm back to the main topic, even if these camps don't work people should be allowed to attend. Its not like they're getting govt. funding. If almost everyone who went to fat camp came back still fat would you shut it down? Or better yet, why not first take all those weight loss products that don't work off the market. Or actually you know what, just go ahead and ban tarot card readings and crystal balls while you're at it.

The difference is that "Gay Conversion" camps inflict real physical and psychological harm on the their prisoners.


Listen to yourself. Prisoners? Camps? If a psychologist's patients are reported to have psychological problems, shut his practice down. But don't ban it across the board.

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The House of Petain
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Postby The House of Petain » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:17 pm

Leepaidamba wrote:
Madredia wrote:
I don't advocate the illegalization of homosexuality. However I do find it immoral (don't even go into attacking that belief because I'm tired of trying to defend it.)

Have you not said that homosexuality should be illegal? Yes? I thought so.
You advocate for people to be taken away the right to have consensual sex in certain circumstances, therefore you can't say you believe in personal freedoms without adding in qualifiers.


It could be he views homosexuality as personally immoral, but believes everybody has the right to choice because his views are not everybody else's.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:18 pm

Madredia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:The difference is that "Gay Conversion" camps inflict real physical and psychological harm on the their prisoners.


Listen to yourself. Prisoners? Camps? If a psychologist's patients are reported to have psychological problems, shut his practice down. But don't ban it across the board.


"Gay conversion therapy" has been rejected by every single respectable psychological organization. Banning it makes perfect sense. If it is not hurtful to the individuals that are subjected to it, then it is at the very least fraud.
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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:18 pm

Madredia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:The difference is that "Gay Conversion" camps inflict real physical and psychological harm on the their prisoners.


Listen to yourself. Prisoners? Camps? If a psychologist's patients are reported to have psychological problems, shut his practice down. But don't ban it across the board.


Gay conversion camps bring nothing but harm, and have had no consequences that weren't negative. Shut them all down across the board.
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Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
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Madredia
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Postby Madredia » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:18 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Madredia wrote:
Dude where did you get that idea! I'm not in support homosexual marriage arguments (because giving people a certificate of marriage isn't a right) but I don't believe homosexuals should have any less rights than me.

The fact that you don't see the contradiction in that statement is rather telling.


The govt. can give marriage licenses to who they please. It is not a right to get one.

Leepaidamba wrote:
Madredia wrote:
I don't advocate the illegalization of homosexuality. However I do find it immoral (don't even go into attacking that belief because I'm tired of trying to defend it.)

Have you not said that homosexuality should be illegal? Yes? I thought so.
You advocate for people to be taken away the right to have consensual sex in certain circumstances, therefore you can't say you believe in personal freedoms without adding in qualifiers.


I was merely saying it should be categorized with other sexual acts of the same kind.


The Black Forrest wrote:
Madredia wrote:
Dude where did you get that idea! I'm not in support homosexual marriage arguments (because giving people a certificate of marriage isn't a right) but I don't believe homosexuals should have any less rights than me.


That's a good start. How about a gay couple kissing in public?


Thats fine for them. Personally I would be disgusted, but I don't have to watch.

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Swith Witherward
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Postby Swith Witherward » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:19 pm

It doesn't matter if homosexuality is legal or illegal... the topic was "Gay Conversion" therapy and the possibility of outlawing it.
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Paulmania
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Postby Paulmania » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:19 pm

Israslovakahzerbajan wrote:
Paulmania wrote:
Parents technically force their kids into everything.


Parents are the respective legal guardians of minors. They can do whatever they please to children as long as they don't disrupt their integrity as human beings.


The camps are ineffectual, there is no evidence that they harm people according to the article.

Unless you're abdicating the skepticism that is so loved around here for your politics.

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Leepaidamba
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Postby Leepaidamba » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:19 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Madredia wrote:
I don't advocate the illegalization of homosexuality. However I do find it immoral (don't even go into attacking that belief because I'm tired of trying to defend it.)


It's simple really.

Moral codes are only for ourselves. Don't expect others to follow them.

My moral code reads like this: avoidable harm is immoral. Shouldn't I expect others to follow it? Shouldn't I expect others to avoid harm as much as they can? Shouldn't I expect others to condemn those who do avoidable harm? I do think I should.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:20 pm

Madredia wrote:Thats fine for them. Personally I would be disgusted, but I don't have to watch.


Why be disgusted? Isn't it more "Christian" to be happy two people found love?
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Yumyumsuppertime
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Postby Yumyumsuppertime » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:20 pm

Liriena wrote:"Gay conversion therapy" has been rejected by every single respectable psychological organization. Banning it makes perfect sense. If it is not hurtful to the individuals that are subjected to it, then it is at the very least fraud.


And that's really the thing, now, isn't it?

I mean, let's say for the sake of argument that conversion therapy isn't harmful. Anecdotal evidence would seem to suggest otherwise, but we'll leave that aside for now.

Even then, considering the fact that there has been absolutely no peer-reviewed evidence to support the claim of this therapy's effectiveness, at best it's the equivalent of selling snake oil in order to "cure" a nonexistent disease.

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Zaras
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Postby Zaras » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:21 pm

Paulmania wrote:there is no evidence that they harm people according to the article.


The article's wrong. Every single study has shown that gay conversion camps harm people.
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Zaras wrote:Democratic People's Republic of Glorious Misty Mountain Hop.
The bat in the middle commemmorates their crushing victory in the bloody Battle of Evermore, where the Communists were saved at the last minute by General "Black Dog" Bonham of the Rock 'n Roll Brigade detonating a levee armed with only four sticks and flooding the enemy encampment. He later retired with honours and went to live in California for the rest of his life before ascending to heaven.

Best post I've seen on NS since I've been here. :clap:
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Leepaidamba
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Postby Leepaidamba » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:21 pm

The House of Petain wrote:
Leepaidamba wrote:Have you not said that homosexuality should be illegal? Yes? I thought so.
You advocate for people to be taken away the right to have consensual sex in certain circumstances, therefore you can't say you believe in personal freedoms without adding in qualifiers.


It could be he views homosexuality as personally immoral, but believes everybody has the right to choice because his views are not everybody else's.

I didn't address his morality, so while your point might be valid it's irrelevant.
Factbook
Official name: the Grand Duchy of Leepaidamba
Short name: Amba
AKA: the Grand Duchy
Demonym: Leepaidamban/Amban
HoS: co-Grand Dukes David I and Anna I
HoG: Premier Jaap de Waal
Region: Nederland
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Madredia
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Postby Madredia » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:21 pm

Zaras wrote:
Madredia wrote:
Listen to yourself. Prisoners? Camps? If a psychologist's patients are reported to have psychological problems, shut his practice down. But don't ban it across the board.


Gay conversion camps bring nothing but harm, and have had no consequences that weren't negative. Shut them all down across the board.


Wowwww who's generalizing now? Thats what I meant by inconsitency. Bringing no good (debatable) does not equate bringing nothing but harm. Parents make their kids go to Church too, and some people think THAT brings psychological problems and nothing but harm (I'm not one of them)

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Leepaidamba
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Postby Leepaidamba » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:22 pm

Madredia wrote:
Leepaidamba wrote:Have you not said that homosexuality should be illegal? Yes? I thought so.
You advocate for people to be taken away the right to have consensual sex in certain circumstances, therefore you can't say you believe in personal freedoms without adding in qualifiers.


I was merely saying it should be categorized with other sexual acts of the same kind.

In which case all such sexual acts should be legal as they involve only consenting adults.
Factbook
Official name: the Grand Duchy of Leepaidamba
Short name: Amba
AKA: the Grand Duchy
Demonym: Leepaidamban/Amban
HoS: co-Grand Dukes David I and Anna I
HoG: Premier Jaap de Waal
Region: Nederland
Map by PB
FlagsNational animal: Rabit
National motto: "Paene est non." (Almost is not)
National anthem: " 't Lied der Vrijheid" (the Song of Freedom)
CapitalsCurrency: Amban Florin/Aƒ
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Page
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Postby Page » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:23 pm

I would say, if adults want to participate in such idiocy, let them, but it should definitely be illegal to subject children to.
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