On Abortions, "We accept all sorts."

[Forsher]

Okay, a long time ago, before I used this nation there was a thread on paper abortions, it was recognised as one of NSG's greatest threads.It was so great it was archived.

Paper abortions are, essentially, abortions for men. That is to say they abort the paper trail. Basically it severs the legal connection between father and children. If a man does not want to be a father no-one can force him to be. Personally, they should be possible up until the 28 week mark. (Unless, the man can prove a lack of awareness after that point.)

Normal abortions are the same, but for women and involve aborting foetuses. They are highly controversial but most people accept that they should be a basic legal right. Since 1973, apparently. Personally I think they should only be performed after 28 weeks for serious medical reasons and I couldn't care less about them otherwise.

Today this post was made.

This is NOT aimed at Tahar Joblis, as I don't recall his stance on abortion, but just in general: there are a number of males on this forum who call for paper abortions -- absolving male parents of any responsibility to a child born against their wishes whom they have contributed genetic material to create. I wonder how many support, and how many oppose, actual abortion.

This is really the main question here. Do you support paper abortions and abortions? I do, it is in the name of fairness and equality after all.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I don't much like either but they should both be legal and open to people. Though I think there should be notification of the other party concerning what one's decision was (IE: The father should know if the mother will get/wants to get an abortion and the mother should know if the father will get/wants to get a paper abortion.

Edit: Except in cases where this would be problematic (incest, rape, etc.)

[Vousielle]

I don't much like either but they should both be legal and open to people. Though I think there should be notification of the other party concerning what one's decision was (IE: The father should know if the mother will get/wants to get an abortion and the mother should know if the father will get/wants to get a paper abortion.

Edit: Except in cases where this would be problematic (incest, rape, etc.)

Pretty much my views on the matter

[Helertia]

Hmm. Difficult. A lot relies on the circumstances and how one defines the concept of the partner getting pregnant against the males will but, in theory and under certain conditions, I suppose it's largely acceptable, if morally indistinct.

[1000 Cats]

My main concern may be based on ignorance, and I apologize if that is the case, but could not a paper abortion be allowed in the case that a father who didn't suit up doesn't want to pay child support? The child is still there, and the paper abortion in that case just means he's not only still there to a potentially unwilling parent but he's there to a potentially unwilling parent who is significantly poorer. For now, because of that, I'm only in favor of physical abortions.

[Yootwopia]

Actual abortions only, please. Paper abortions are a means of frittering away responsibility and nothing else. They do not ensure that, rather than a child being given a tumultuous upbringing from one of the parents not being interested, they simply have no upbringing.

[Wamitoria]

Actual abortions only, please. Paper abortions are a means of frittering away responsibility and nothing else. They do not ensure that, rather than a child being given a tumultuous upbringing from one of the parents not being interested, they simply have no upbringing.

^This.

[Helertia]

Actual abortions only, please. Paper abortions are a means of frittering away responsibility and nothing else. They do not ensure that, rather than a child being given a tumultuous upbringing from one of the parents not being interested, they simply have no upbringing.

What about in the exceedingly rare and unusal cases when the man impregnates the woman "accidentally" - lying about birth control, sabotage of condom or something like that? Or is there some sort of mechanism already extant in these cases?

[Occupied Deutschland]

My main concern may be based on ignorance, and I apologize if that is the case, but could not a paper abortion be allowed in the case that a father who didn't suit up doesn't want to pay child support? The child is still there, and the paper abortion in that case just means he's not only still there to a potentially unwilling parent but he's there to a potentially unwilling parent who is significantly poorer. For now, because of that, I'm only in favor of physical abortions.

I would presume that there would be some liability issues in such circumstances (as there are now? I dunnow.) where the father is required to pay child support because of irresponsibility/et.al, though that too might be me being optimistic about what "paper abortions" would entail and how they would be handled.

[Yootwopia]

Actual abortions only, please. Paper abortions are a means of frittering away responsibility and nothing else. They do not ensure that, rather than a child being given a tumultuous upbringing from one of the parents not being interested, they simply have no upbringing.

What about in the exceedingly rare and unusal cases when the man impregnates the woman "accidentally" - lying about birth control, sabotage of condom or something like that? Or is there some sort of mechanism already extant in these cases?

If you've got doubts, don't stick it in.

[Distruzio]

I support neither.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Okay, here's my question on the topic:
As it stands now, does the father have any say in an abortion? Obviously yes he does, but I mean legally. I assume it is all on the woman because it's her body, but that hardly seems fair as the father IS more than or equally responsible (maybe in some cases less, but I digress) for the woman being pregnant as the woman is, so I don't see the reasoning behind only one being legal beyond "Oh, men would just run off.". Maybe they would, but that seems like weak reasoning to base such laws off of and if one were in a inflammatory mood they could compare such reasoning to the older reasoning that kept women out of the professional sector and from equality for so long.

[Yootwopia]

Okay, here's my question on the topic:
As it stands now, does the father have any say in an abortion? Obviously yes he does, but I mean legally.

No. Because they're not carrying a foetus to term.

[Occupied Deutschland]

What about in the exceedingly rare and unusal cases when the man impregnates the woman "accidentally" - lying about birth control, sabotage of condom or something like that? Or is there some sort of mechanism already extant in these cases?

If you've got doubts, don't stick it in.

Not quite a useful mechanism after it has already been stuck in, is it?

[Helertia]

What about in the exceedingly rare and unusal cases when the man impregnates the woman "accidentally" - lying about birth control, sabotage of condom or something like that? Or is there some sort of mechanism already extant in these cases?

If you've got doubts, don't stick it in.

That doesn't really answer my question.

[Millerainia]

I will give my opinion on male aboritons. I'm a guy, and if I got a girl pregnant, I would definitely be surprised. But you can't go back on what you did. How can you put that baby in there, and then turn around and say 'See you never." I don't care if you don't want to see the baby or be with the mother, but giving up all legal rights is bullshit. No matter how you look at it, the kid is yours so you should have to pay child support and your name should be on the birth certificate. You should be responsible for what you did. I don't care if you don't want to be a daddy yet. Sorry, you messed up, your fault. As for female, I don't think it should be allowed unless it is really essential, or ordered by a court of law why the pregnancy should be a terminated, it should be a good ass reason. Not the "im not ready" crap. Again, if you weren't ready to have a kid, don't have sex at all. Or at least use protection. Come on people. They sell them everyone. And people should stop acting like buying condoms is a bad thing. It is a wonderful thing and should be applauded than shamed. If they are seeking out protection, they are being smart. Something these teen-moms don't get yet. If it wasn't so easy to get an abortion, then they might think twice about having unprotected sex in the first place.

[Yootwopia]

If you've got doubts, don't stick it in.

Not quite a useful mechanism after it has already been stuck in, is it?

This is why you should perhaps do more of the thinking and less of the chasing to get your end away.

[Forsher]

My main concern may be based on ignorance, and I apologize if that is the case, but could not a paper abortion be allowed in the case that a father who didn't suit up doesn't want to pay child support? The child is still there, and the paper abortion in that case just means he's not only still there to a potentially unwilling parent but he's there to a potentially unwilling parent who is significantly poorer. For now, because of that, I'm only in favor of physical abortions.

Well, the way I propose it is implemented the only way she could be any worse off is if he decides to paper abort at the last moment which means she can't have an abortion. (So, I think a week's leeway is in order for the physical, maybe paper too if she did the same thing which is unlikely.) Any other way nothing changes. If she decides that it is time to contact the previously unwitting father and get some cash off him and he doesn't want the child in the first place and gets a paper abortion using the unwitting clause in my proposition she isn't left poorer. It has to be made clear that how I, at any rate, imagine it he has no right to see the child, ever, if he gets a paper abortion. No exceptions for changes of heart.

Actual abortions only, please. Paper abortions are a means of frittering away responsibility and nothing else. They do not ensure that, rather than a child being given a tumultuous upbringing from one of the parents not being interested, they simply have no upbringing.

An interesting viewpoint. Without paper abortions, or something with the same effect, he could end up paying for a child he does not want. In essence he is being forced to do something, which is, ironically enough, one of the reasons for normal abortions.

I suppose a mother could also have a paper abortion if only the father wants the child on birth, as well.

[Yootwopia]

An interesting viewpoint. Without paper abortions, or something with the same effect, he could end up paying for a child he does not want. In essence he is being forced to do something, which is, ironically enough, one of the reasons for normal abortions.

Yes...

I suppose a mother could also have a paper abortion if only the father wants the child on birth, as well.

No, that would be just as wrongheaded.

[Forsher]

What about in the exceedingly rare and unusal cases when the man impregnates the woman "accidentally" - lying about birth control, sabotage of condom or something like that? Or is there some sort of mechanism already extant in these cases?

If you've got doubts, don't stick it in.

What about the maxim, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy? Although, pregnancy would need changing to fatherhood, obviously.

I support neither.

An oversight on my part with regards to the poll. Apologoies to those who have already voted.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Not quite a useful mechanism after it has already been stuck in, is it?

This is why you should perhaps do more of the thinking and less of the chasing to get your end away.

Ah, I see. Men should have to deal with the consequences and bear the responsibility of their actions but women's right-to-choose is sacrosanct...Wait'a'minnit what is this, some kinda irony demonstration or something? Do you see what you did there, because I did and it bugs me. Please elucidate me as to your reasoning.

[Forsher]

An interesting viewpoint. Without paper abortions, or something with the same effect, he could end up paying for a child he does not want. In essence he is being forced to do something, which is, ironically enough, one of the reasons for normal abortions.

Yes...

I suppose a mother could also have a paper abortion if only the father wants the child on birth, as well.

No, that would be just as wrongheaded.

Well, at least hypocrisy isn't an issue.

[Yootwopia]

This is why you should perhaps do more of the thinking and less of the chasing to get your end away.

Ah, I see. Men should have to deal with the consequences and bear the responsibility of their actions but women's right-to-choose is sacrosanct.

Yes. Because they are the ones bearing a foetus to term, or not. This is not a thing men do.

[AETEN II]

Where's the paper abortions for both genders? And while only women can get the actual abortion, if I ever get a future girlfriend/wife in the future, I will DEMAND that baby is aborted as I don't want to curse some poor offspring the burden of my DNA.

[Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia]

I support no form of abortion whatsoever physically, however the paper option is, more or less acceptable, so long as the "paper aborted" child is provided care by someone else in a full manner that a parent normally has of responsibility.