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Some questions to the LGBT community

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Flaming Soul Forces
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Some questions to the LGBT community

Postby Flaming Soul Forces » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:10 am

Hello there.
Recently I realised my bisexual identity and I want to pose some questions to the LGBT community.
I know you might find these questions stupid or annoying but bare with me :)

The coalition
The LGBT community includes homosexuals, bisexuals and transexuals.
The first two groups have to do with sexual orientation while the latter is about gender identity, something quite different.
1.Why the two issues are put together? I think there should be different organisations for trans people
Moreover, bisexuals are just as different from homosexuals as from heterosexuals
2.Why should bisexuals and gays belong to the same community and organisation?

Symbols
I know that bisexuals, gays and trans have their own flags.
3.What is the point of having flags.Heterosexuals don't have flags.Why should we have flags?
4.And if flags are needed for some reasons, the current flags were not democratically chosen in a contest but rather just 'prevailed'.So shouldn't there be a new contest with more choices?

Pride and parades
I believe that no person, straight or LGBT, should be neither proud nor ashamed of its sexual orientation or gender.It's just who they are
5. What is the purpose of pride parades? It seems to me that the pride parade is something like a carnival, giving the chance to straight people to make fun of LGBT people.

So? what do you think?
Last edited by Flaming Soul Forces on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jormengand
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Postby Jormengand » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:18 am

I don't know, I didn't invent flags, pride parades or the LGBT definition - It's just a few people who do that, and they are pretty much "radicals." I believe most of us want little to do with it.
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Iuuvic
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Postby Iuuvic » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:19 am

1-2.) The LGBT is more about your sexual & personal identity then it is your orientation.

3 & 5.) We display our pride openly to instill confidence, very important since homosexuals have been, and still are, barraged with constant negativity. In a world where so many people tell you that what you are is wrong and sinful sometimes it’s nice to see that there are large portions of society who love and accept you for who you are.

4.) The rainbow represents unity despite difference, in my opinion. Also there is are more gay pride symbols then just a rainbow.
Last edited by Iuuvic on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:27 am

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:Hello there.
Recently I realised my bisexual identity and I want to pose some questions to the LGBT community.
I know you might find these questions stupid or annoying but bare with me :)

The coalition
The LGBT community includes homosexuals, bisexuals and transexuals.
The first two groups have to do with sexual orientation while the latter is about gender identity, something quite different.
1.Why the two issues are put together? I think there should be different organisations for trans people
Moreover, bisexuals are just as different from homosexuals as from heterosexuals
2.Why should bissexuals and gays belong to the same community and organisation?

Because they're all discriminated against on the same grounds, i.e. not being a traditional cisgendered heterosexual.

Symbols
I know that bisexuals, gays and trans have their own flags.
3.What is the point of having flags.Heterosexuals don't have flags.Why should we have flags?

Presumably to have something to wave during parades or protests. *shrug*
4.And if flags are needed for some reasons, the current flags were not democratically chosen in a contest but rather just 'prevailed'.So shouldn't there be a new contest with more choices?

I don't really see why. They're just flags.

Pride and parades
I believe that no person, straight or LGBT, should be neither proud nor ashamed of its sexual orientation or gender.It's just who they are
5. What is the purpose of pride parades? It seems to me that the pride parade is something like a carnival, giving the chance to straight people to make fun of LGBT people.

The point is to counter and defy the shame LGBT individuals are told they should feel because they aren't cisgendered heterosexuals. They are told that they are sick, broken, evil, and that they should hide their differences away and never speak of them or act on them. And with pride parades they respond "No, fuck you, there's nothing sick, broken or evil about us and we won't hide away because you say so, you shitstain on the underwear of humanity".
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Ovisterra
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Postby Ovisterra » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:28 am

Ifreann wrote:The point is to counter and defy the shame LGBT individuals are told they should feel because they aren't cisgendered heterosexuals. They are told that they are sick, broken, evil, and that they should hide their differences away and never speak of them or act on them. And with pride parades they respond "No, fuck you, there's nothing sick, broken or evil about us and we won't hide away because you say so, you shitstain on the underwear of humanity".


Can I sig that?
Last edited by Ovisterra on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:33 am

Ovisterra wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The point is to counter and defy the shame LGBT individuals are told they should feel because they aren't cisgendered heterosexuals. They are told that they are sick, broken, evil, and that they should hide their differences away and never speak of them or act on them. And with pride parades they respond "No, fuck you, there's nothing sick, broken or evil about us and we won't hide away because you say so, you shitstain on the underwear of humanity".


Can I sig that?

Go for it. :)
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Alyakia
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Postby Alyakia » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:10 am

I don't know, why are people suddenly openly "proud" to be something that they've been told to be ashmed of and forced to hide?

Maybe we should get a Royal Commission going.
Last edited by Alyakia on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Alyakia
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Postby Alyakia » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:10 am

if it makes you feel better the LGB part usualy treats the T part like shit and ignores their issues anyway
Grammar is a tool of the bourgeoisie and most attempts to police it by self-professed "grammar nazis" are little more than thinly veiled drops of pseudo-intellectualism mired in the sentiments of classism and racism designed to marginalize and hand-wave the opinions of groups that lack the ability to or refuse to express themselves in a nice little pre-approved format or were born into an area or socio-economic/racial/cultural group who are, along with their dialect, considered to be "unintelligent" and not worthy of proper respect. Such attempts to bully said groups out of expressing themselves are intolerable and therefore, to that extent, I have decided to make my posts the vanguard for the liberation of language from elitism.

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Faolinn
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Postby Faolinn » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:21 am

I have to agree with the line about this idea of "pride". Maybe if it were overcoming adversity pride or something of that nature it would make more sense. It seems foolish to have pride in things that merely are.
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Page
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Postby Page » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:26 am

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:Hello there.
Recently I realised my bisexual identity and I want to pose some questions to the LGBT community.
I know you might find these questions stupid or annoying but bare with me :)

The coalition
The LGBT community includes homosexuals, bisexuals and transexuals.
The first two groups have to do with sexual orientation while the latter is about gender identity, something quite different.
1.Why the two issues are put together? I think there should be different organisations for trans people
Moreover, bisexuals are just as different from homosexuals as from heterosexuals
2.Why should bissexuals and gays belong to the same community and organisation?

Symbols
I know that bisexuals, gays and trans have their own flags.
3.What is the point of having flags.Heterosexuals don't have flags.Why should we have flags?
4.And if flags are needed for some reasons, the current flags were not democratically chosen in a contest but rather just 'prevailed'.So shouldn't there be a new contest with more choices?

Pride and parades
I believe that no person, straight or LGBT, should be neither proud nor ashamed of its sexual orientation or gender.It's just who they are
5. What is the purpose of pride parades? It seems to me that the pride parade is something like a carnival, giving the chance to straight people to make fun of LGBT people.

So? what do you think?


The answer to your first set of questions is incredibly obvious - because we are all in this fight against bigotry together. Admittedely I've known a few gay people who detest bisexuals, and I've known some LGB's who do not want their struggle to be associated with transpeople.

But the vast majority of us recognize the value of unity.
Sex, gender, and orientation are three distinct things. But the fight for freedom and equality involves all of them.
Why should trans people be isolated any further? Why divide ourselves based on differences at all? Heterosexual allies are as much welcome as anyone else too, the LGBT movement is a banner for anyone against sexual bigotry.

As for symbols. Prevalence is de facto democracy. Rainbow flags, double sex symbols in a ring, things like that are popular and recognizable. Symbols aren't a matter of contest, they are a matter of consensus. There are some Christians might not like the cross as a symbol, some radical leftists who reject the sickle and hammer. But what is mainstream just is. I don't really see any point in dwelling on it.

And pride is an assertion of autonomy and a love of self. Yes, in an ideal world, every type of sexuality would be accepted. In a utopia, bigotry against LGBT people would not even be an understandable concept in the human mind. But lots of things would be different if we have a utopia, and the fact is, we don't.

To a large extent, homophobia is the reason and LGBT culture formed. There is nothing wrong with a counterculture. Most of the major religions of the world formed as a counterculture in their earliest days. And yes, gay pride parades are like carnivals. They are over the top, they are attention seeking, so are all types of human festivals and celebrations. Why can't we have fun? That doesn't take away from the fact that our movement is serious, and that we have faced grave struggles. No one should live their entire life so seriously. Pride parades are fun and that's we they exist.
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Postby Genivaria » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:28 am

Ifreann wrote:The point is to counter and defy the shame LGBT individuals are told they should feel because they aren't cisgendered heterosexuals. They are told that they are sick, broken, evil, and that they should hide their differences away and never speak of them or act on them. And with pride parades they respond "No, fuck you, there's nothing sick, broken or evil about us and we won't hide away because you say so, you shitstain on the underwear of humanity".

:bow: :bow: :clap: :clap:
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Postby Euroslavia » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:30 am

Page pretty much summed up everything I was going to say. Very awesome post. I just wanted to add that there are transgender communities and organizations that one can participate in. http://www.transgendermichigan.org/ Just being one example of the multiple ones in Michigan alone.
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Hardened Pyrokinetics
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Postby Hardened Pyrokinetics » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:34 am

I'm sorry, but I find it somewhat hilarious that this was made by someone with "Flaming" in their name. Does that make me a bad person?
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Postby Metanih » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:39 am

I read the first part, and gave up. You really think bisexual refers to sexual identity, and not orientation?
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Postby Iuuvic » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:42 am

Metanih wrote:I read the first part, and gave up. You really think bisexual refers to sexual identity, and not orientation?


Your orientation is, for many people, an aspect of your sexual and personal identity.
Last edited by Iuuvic on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ceannairceach » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:10 pm

1.Why the two issues are put together? I think there should be different organisations for trans people
Moreover, bisexuals are just as different from homosexuals as from heterosexuals

Because of strength in numbers, and it is more of an alliance uniting those who are considered estranged from the heteronormative culture that has been established by society for the past centuries.
2.Why should bissexuals and gays belong to the same community and organisation?

Because they both fall under the blanket of "alternative sexualities". Like I said above, it is a campaign to end discrimination against those who do not subscribe to heteronormativity, and nothing else. Specialized groups do exist.
3.What is the point of having flags.Heterosexuals don't have flags.Why should we have flags?

Because they are used as symbols for our rights movement. The flags and symbols themselves are unimportant. It is the message it conveys when showing one that matters.
4.And if flags are needed for some reasons, the current flags were not democratically chosen in a contest but rather just 'prevailed'.So shouldn't there be a new contest with more choices?

What has become popular is really not important. Our symbol could be a sandwich for all I care; So long as it is used to convey support for our movement, it doesn't matter.
5. What is the purpose of pride parades? It seems to me that the pride parade is something like a carnival, giving the chance to straight people to make fun of LGBT people.

It is supposed to show a feeling of self assurance in one's sexual identity, and nothing else. The word "pride", I feel, is a misnomer. It is, also, used as a way to demonstrate in favor of homosexual rights locally and worldwide.

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Bottle
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Postby Bottle » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:16 pm

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:Hello there.
Recently I realised my bisexual identity and I want to pose some questions to the LGBT community.
I know you might find these questions stupid or annoying but bare with me :)

The coalition
The LGBT community includes homosexuals, bisexuals and transexuals.
The first two groups have to do with sexual orientation while the latter is about gender identity, something quite different.
1.Why the two issues are put together? I think there should be different organisations for trans people
Moreover, bisexuals are just as different from homosexuals as from heterosexuals
2.Why should bissexuals and gays belong to the same community and organisation?

Symbols
I know that bisexuals, gays and trans have their own flags.
3.What is the point of having flags.Heterosexuals don't have flags.Why should we have flags?
4.And if flags are needed for some reasons, the current flags were not democratically chosen in a contest but rather just 'prevailed'.So shouldn't there be a new contest with more choices?

Pride and parades
I believe that no person, straight or LGBT, should be neither proud nor ashamed of its sexual orientation or gender.It's just who they are
5. What is the purpose of pride parades? It seems to me that the pride parade is something like a carnival, giving the chance to straight people to make fun of LGBT people.

So? what do you think?

First up, you are actually asking some pretty fundamental questions. Yes, they are simple, but simple doesn't mean easy, eh?

1) In a word, intersectionality. Plenty of people are both trans AND gay, after all. More importantly, a ton of people in society don't make a distinction between trans people and "fags," even though plenty of trans people are straight...the fact that trans people get a lot of the same bigotry as cis gay people means that they are natural allies.

2) Why not? I'm bisexual, and when I've been in relationships with women I've been confronted with all the standard homophobia that lesbians probably encounter. The fact that I have the privilege of not experiencing that treatment when I'm in a relationship with a man doesn't change the fact that homophobia mucks up my life.

3) Movements have symbols. Heterosexuals aren't a movement; they are the dominant majority. It's like how we have a Black History Month because the sad reality is that "regular" history is actually white history. Minorities often have to become loud, identifiable movements just to secure their rights.

4) Go for it...queers love art contests (see: Bravo network).

5) I'm not proud that I happened to be born queer, but you're damn right I'm proud of being out...being out is hard goddamn work. Because I am out as queer, I get threats. I get harassment. I get told that I don't get to have basic civil and human rights. I have to put up with a ton of bullshit for being queer, and I'm proud of my ability to deal with all that bullshit, just like I'd be proud of any other pile of hard work that I took care of.
Last edited by Bottle on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jormengand » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:46 pm

Alyakia wrote:if it makes you feel better the LGB part usualy treats the T part like shit and ignores their issues anyway

*not true*

Thank you. Now you've finished pulling rubbish out of a hat, can we continue?
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Postby 1000 Cats » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:52 pm

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:Hello there.
Recently I realised my bisexual identity and I want to pose some questions to the LGBT community.
I know you might find these questions stupid or annoying but bare with me :)

The coalition
The LGBT community includes homosexuals, bisexuals and transexuals.
The first two groups have to do with sexual orientation while the latter is about gender identity, something quite different.
1.Why the two issues are put together? I think there should be different organisations for trans people
Moreover, bisexuals are just as different from homosexuals as from heterosexuals
2.Why should bissexuals and gays belong to the same community and organisation?

The community is more for sexual minorities in general - people who are discriminated against by the majority for reasons pertaining to their sexuality, or their gender. Yes, trans is a little loose in there, but homosexuality and bisexuality both fit in that category. Honestly, the more sheltered heteros of the world really don't see the difference between the two.

Symbols
I know that bisexuals, gays and trans have their own flags.
3.What is the point of having flags.Heterosexuals don't have flags.Why should we have flags?
4.And if flags are needed for some reasons, the current flags were not democratically chosen in a contest but rather just 'prevailed'.So shouldn't there be a new contest with more choices?

Flags and symbols in general exist to represent an organization, cause, community, movement, etc. This applies to LGBT rights groups.

Pride and parades
I believe that no person, straight or LGBT, should be neither proud nor ashamed of its sexual orientation or gender.It's just who they are
5. What is the purpose of pride parades? It seems to me that the pride parade is something like a carnival, giving the chance to straight people to make fun of LGBT people.

I used to think this way too, but I casually mentioned it once and the response was, "Well, I think they're more celebrating their bravery at coming out of the closet, and being allowed to love without persecution." That shut me right up, and to this day I think she's right.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:54 pm

Um, when you use the shower room at the local gym, is that like Christmas morning to you people?

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Postby Neo Arcad » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:58 pm

Hardened Pyrokinetics wrote:I'm sorry, but I find it somewhat hilarious that this was made by someone with "Flaming" in their name. Does that make me a bad person?


And I find it hilarious that you technically have "flaming" in your name.
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Transeden
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Postby Transeden » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:06 pm

LGBT communities fly the rainbow flag as a way to show pride in their sexual orientation and pride in themselves and their fight against people who want to take away their human rights and destroy their image with slanderous lies about their orientation.
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Alyakia
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Postby Alyakia » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:10 pm

Jormengand wrote:
Alyakia wrote:if it makes you feel better the LGB part usualy treats the T part like shit and ignores their issues anyway

*not true*

Thank you. Now you've finished pulling rubbish out of a hat, can we continue?

*true*

If I'm pulling rubbish out a hat I'd love to know where yours is coming from.

e: i wish i waited 30 seconds longer before posting this but fuck it
Last edited by Alyakia on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Grammar is a tool of the bourgeoisie and most attempts to police it by self-professed "grammar nazis" are little more than thinly veiled drops of pseudo-intellectualism mired in the sentiments of classism and racism designed to marginalize and hand-wave the opinions of groups that lack the ability to or refuse to express themselves in a nice little pre-approved format or were born into an area or socio-economic/racial/cultural group who are, along with their dialect, considered to be "unintelligent" and not worthy of proper respect. Such attempts to bully said groups out of expressing themselves are intolerable and therefore, to that extent, I have decided to make my posts the vanguard for the liberation of language from elitism.

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Page
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5444
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Page » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:10 pm

Jormengand wrote:
Alyakia wrote:if it makes you feel better the LGB part usualy treats the T part like shit and ignores their issues anyway

*not true*

Thank you. Now you've finished pulling rubbish out of a hat, can we continue?


No I must admit, much of the bi/gay community has ignored transgender people and what they go through. I used to be one of those people, who didn't think it was on equal level, who saw it as a psychological disorder. But I changed for the better, I understand now that transgender people do not have anything wrong in their head, they were just born into the wrong body.

I had to overcome the transphobia indoctrinated into me by a large part of society, and so do many people, including some in the gay community.
Wisdom:
Scomagia wrote:What's really cute is how the authoritarian types get hard over invasive and brutal police powers, yet never consider that they might find a jackboot on their neck. It's like they all secretly see themselves in positions of authority, rather than being beaten and black-bagged with everyone else.

United States of The One Percent wrote:Dogs rule. Humans should be banned. Arf.

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Eggy216
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Posts: 172
Founded: Jan 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Eggy216 » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:13 pm

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:1.Why the two issues are put together? I think there should be different organisations for trans people
Moreover, bisexuals are just as different from homosexuals as from heterosexuals


I think they're put together because there's strength in numbers - even with lgbtqa etc. all together, heterosexuals are still by far the majority. I also wish to raise issue with your latter statement - Bisexuals are not necessary quite different from homosexuals. I myself identify as bi, but I feel closer with homosexuals than heterosexuals. I don't know why, but I just do.

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:2.Why should bisexuals and gays belong to the same community and organisation?


I think this again goes to the same reason - strength in numbers.

At the same time, I wish to add that bisexuals are often discriminated against by hetero and homosexuals. Dan Savage for example (creator of the "It Gets Better Project") is well known for his outbursts of hatred towards bisexuals. One of my gay friends who I liked a lot was uncomfortable with the fact that I was bisexual for whatever reason. So they don't necessarily belong to the same community as much as it may seem like that - but in my opinion they should if for no other reason than support.

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:3.What is the point of having flags.Heterosexuals don't have flags.Why should we have flags?


NECESSARY ANSWER: Pride.

My answer: I have absolutely no clue. I find it absolutely stupid.

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:4.And if flags are needed for some reasons, the current flags were not democratically chosen in a contest but rather just 'prevailed'.So shouldn't there be a new contest with more choices?


If society wants one flag, that flag will be the one adopted - if a majority want a different flag, then a different flag will arise.

Flaming Soul Forces wrote:5. What is the purpose of pride parades? It seems to me that the pride parade is something like a carnival, giving the chance to straight people to make fun of LGBT people.


I personally do not and would not ever take part in a pride parade. I find it to be unnecessarily flaunting your sexuality in such a way to say "look at me! I'm not like you, so go ahead and take a shot at me so I can use this against you!"

Kind of like what the Westboro Baptist Church does - goes and cries "THIS SOLDIER DIED BECAUSE GOD HATES GAYS" at a poor man's funeral, and then when people strike out at them they sue. It's just wrong and I don't like either.

Hope what I said helps!
Political Compass:

Economic: Left/Right: -9.12
Social: Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.95

Bisexual and proud.

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