Language/Language Learning

[Kirrig]

Most of that is racism, as opposed to xenophobia.

Racism is xenophobia.

intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries:

Some of those are xenophobic policies, most are just racist.

[Daistallia 2104]

Racism is xenophobia.

intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries:

Some of those are xenophobic policies, most are just racist.

That is a narrow definition.

As defined by the OED, it can mean a fear of or aversion to, not only people from other countries, but other cultures, subcultures and subsets of belief systems; in short, anyone who meets any list of criteria about their origin, religion, personal beliefs, habits, language, orientations, or any other criteria. While some will state that the "target" group is a set of persons not accepted by the society, in reality only the phobic person need hold the belief that the target group is not (or should not be) accepted by society. While the phobic person is aware of the aversion (even hatred) of the target group, they may not identify it or accept it as a fear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia#Definitions

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Indian languages should be taught at more American schools.

lol! Quite exactly the opposite in most schools here (India). I was *very* lucky my school had a French course.

So I know:
English
Hindi
Tamil
French

A little Japanese
A little Malayalam
And learning German (which is totally and Indian language, lol!) online right now.

That's actually quite impressive. What area do you live in? In my school, they only taught English, no other Western languages.

[Glenn]

I think you should become fluent as possible in Spanish before really spending a lot of time on other languages. In the US, its the next best thing to learn aside from English.

[Arumdaum]

I know English and Korean.

Hate Korean though. I'd like to learn Japanese and Arabic. I know a few basic phrases in Japanese and grammar, as well as both alphabets and a few kanji. Arabic.... well, I know the letter "aleph".

I'd like the schools in my area to teach more than just Spanish though.

[Kirrig]

intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries:

Some of those are xenophobic policies, most are just racist.

That is a narrow definition.

As defined by the OED, it can mean a fear of or aversion to, not only people from other countries, but other cultures, subcultures and subsets of belief systems; in short, anyone who meets any list of criteria about their origin, religion, personal beliefs, habits, language, orientations, or any other criteria. While some will state that the "target" group is a set of persons not accepted by the society, in reality only the phobic person need hold the belief that the target group is not (or should not be) accepted by society. While the phobic person is aware of the aversion (even hatred) of the target group, they may not identify it or accept it as a fear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia#Definitions

Broad definitions are unhelpful. What Wikipedia has done is taken the defiinition from the Dictionary of Psychology and then used the OED to break that definition down. That is rather sneaky.

noun
1.hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture

A useful compromise.

[Wazkyraque]

I know English and Korean.

Hate Korean though. I'd like to learn Japanese and Arabic. I know a few basic phrases in Japanese and grammar, as well as both alphabets and a few kanji. Arabic.... well, I know the letter "aleph".

I'd like the schools in my area to teach more than just Spanish though.

Isn't Korean extremely hard to learn?
I've heard the alphabets easy to get used to though.

[Arumdaum]

I know English and Korean.

Hate Korean though. I'd like to learn Japanese and Arabic. I know a few basic phrases in Japanese and grammar, as well as both alphabets and a few kanji. Arabic.... well, I know the letter "aleph".

I'd like the schools in my area to teach more than just Spanish though.

Isn't Korean extremely hard to learn?
I've heard the alphabets easy to get used to though.

It's pretty easy if you grew up knowing the basics (I spoke Korean before I spoke English). I'm still more used to speaking in Korean to my parents than in English.

I learned the alphabet in kindergarten, and from then on to second grade I attended a Saturday School to learn Korean. I did horribly, and now I take pride in being one of the worst students there.

But randomly moving here to Korea just made it harder, having to randomly adjust from kindergarten level Korean to middle-school level Korean. Everyone at school would also always point out my American accent and stuff, haha.

[Alaje]

Other than my native English, I'm pretty good at Spanish and German and I know alot of Latin vocab so I can figure out the meaning of words from alot of the romance languages. Studying Linguistics, especially the field called Diachronics, helps alot with using one language to decode words and grammatical structures from its relatives.

[Arumdaum]

I think you should become fluent as possible in Spanish before really spending a lot of time on other languages. In the US, its the next best thing to learn aside from English.

It's not that hip though.

French, or an exotic African or Southeast Asian language is much sexier.

[Alaje]

I think you should become fluent as possible in Spanish before really spending a lot of time on other languages. In the US, its the next best thing to learn aside from English.

It's not that hip though.

French, or an exotic African or Southeast Asian language is much sexier.

Spanish is awesome!!!! German is where it's at though.....Deutsch ist Wunderbar!!!!!

[Socialist Sealandia]

I'm an anglophone, and I know a bit of French and German

My high school offers Latin, French, German, and Spanish. French is mandatory for Ontario students from Grade 4 to 9, and some schools start it before 4th Grade. The other languages are offered in 3 levels from Grade 10 to 12, and in that span, French is optional until Grade 12, with Applied/College and Academic/University levels.

I've taken French from Grade 3 to 10, and German in 10 and 11. French is a very unenjoyable language, but I've personally found German extremely interesting. Regardless of whether I've enjoyed the language, I've come out with a much more comprehension of English then I've ever had in all the years I've taken English. You learn what adverbs, adjectives, nouns, and verbs are in English class, but in German, you learn different cases, more extensive types of verbs and their tenses, and etc.

[Fedeledland]

I know Spanish as native language and English as a near-native one. I want to learn German, Italian, and possibly Finnish, Syriac-Aramaic or Russian (to annoy people) or French (which I gave a try but found unenjoyable). Oh, and since I speak Spanish I can kinda understand Portuguese wich I also want to learn.

[Great Malema]

I'm fluent in Afrikaans and English and I know Zulu somewhat. I also learnt Spanish at school but unfortunately, I've forgotten most of it.

[Azarest]

lol! Quite exactly the opposite in most schools here (India). I was *very* lucky my school had a French course.

So I know:
English
Hindi
Tamil
French

A little Japanese
A little Malayalam
And learning German (which is totally and Indian language, lol!) online right now.

That's actually quite impressive. What area do you live in? In my school, they only taught English, no other Western languages.

Tamil Nadu.
And you?

I learned French and Hindi at school. English from books, Tamil at home. And bits of Malayalam from friends.
Went for Japanese classes for a year, and now, with uni, no time to go for German classes.

[Daistallia 2104]

Broad definitions are unhelpful.

However an overly narrow definition is worse when one excludes a fundamental part of the meaning.

What Wikipedia has done is taken the defiinition from the Dictionary of Psychology and then used the OED to break that definition down. That is rather sneaky.

noun
1.hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture

A useful compromise.

Not really. If you look to the root - "ξένος" - and it's meanings, you'll find that the concept is not simply based on superficial nationality, but that of otherness. The xenophobe does not stop fearing or hating when the other gains nationality. Indeed, the xenophobe hates and fears persons who are nominally of their own nationality by birth who display otherness. To the racist, members of of other races are that "other".

Let us look at the cases in question.

In the two cases I listed involving Aboriginals, the English saw Aboriginals as the hated other who were OK to slaughter or as a hated other culture to be destroyed.

White Australia, the Queensland KKK, Pauline Hanson, One Nation, and the Cornulla riots were all directed at hated others. Note that they also fit your narrowed definition of being directed only at foreign nationals.

Even if you don't accept the standard, widely agreed upon definition of xenophobic, and instead replace it with your own narrowed one, the majority of those cases are xenophobic.

[Kirrig]

Broad definitions are unhelpful.

However an overly narrow definition is worse when one excludes a fundamental part of the meaning.

What Wikipedia has done is taken the defiinition from the Dictionary of Psychology and then used the OED to break that definition down. That is rather sneaky.

noun
1.hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture

A useful compromise.

Not really. If you look to the root - "ξένος" - and it's meanings, you'll find that the concept is not simply based on superficial nationality, but that of otherness. The xenophobe does not stop fearing or hating when the other gains nationality. Indeed, the xenophobe hates and fears persons who are nominally of their own nationality by birth who display otherness. To the racist, members of of other races are that "other".

Let us look at the cases in question.

In the two cases I listed involving Aboriginals, the English saw Aboriginals as the hated other who were OK to slaughter or as a hated other culture to be destroyed.

White Australia, the Queensland KKK, Pauline Hanson, One Nation, and the Cornulla riots were all directed at hated others. Note that they also fit your narrowed definition of being directed only at foreign nationals.

Even if you don't accept the standard, widely agreed upon definition of xenophobic, and instead replace it with your own narrowed one, the majority of those cases are xenophobic.

It is not my own definition. I got it from the webbie of the world's most reknowned dictionary. The Collins definition applies to all of your cases. Nationality is a useful measure of foreigness, but looking like you come from a place is used far more frequently.

[Daistallia 2104]

Isn't Korean extremely hard to learn?

For speakers of Indo-European languages, yes. Less so for speakers of other languages. There's quite a bit of discussion amongst linguist on the classification of Korean (as well as Japanese) - whether it's an isolate which is part of the Northeast Asian sprachbund, in a language family with Japanese, or part of the larger Altaic family, along with Finnish and Turkish. I do know that native Japanese speakers find it much easier than native English speakers.

I've heard the alphabets easy to get used to though.

It's engineered to be easy to learn and use. (In an earlier thread on a similar topic, it was suggested that Hangul be used as alphabet for an international auxiliary language, or the basis thereof...)

[Nightkill the Emperor]

That's actually quite impressive. What area do you live in? In my school, they only taught English, no other Western languages.

Tamil Nadu.
And you?

I learned French and Hindi at school. English from books, Tamil at home. And bits of Malayalam from friends.
Went for Japanese classes for a year, and now, with uni, no time to go for German classes.

Lived in Mumbai before moving to the United States. Been all over North India, not so much the South. My definition of South India is anything below Goa.

[Daistallia 2104]

I got it from the webbie of the world's most reknowned dictionary.

You have yet to provide a link to the full OED definition quoted in the wiki. I suggest you consult the unabridged version. (Which you might also consult on the spelling of certain other words...)

The Collins definition applies to all of your cases. Nationality is a useful measure of foreigness, but looking like you come from a place is used far more frequently.

Again, the key is "otherness".

[Kirrig]

I got it from the webbie of the world's most reknowned dictionary.

You have yet to provide a link to the full OED definition quoted in the wiki. I suggest you consult the unabridged version. (Which you might also consult on the spelling of certain other words...)

The Collins definition applies to all of your cases. Nationality is a useful measure of foreigness, but looking like you come from a place is used far more frequently.

Again, the key is "otherness".

The definition from the wiki was for the word 'stranger.' The Dictionary of Psychology gave the definition for xenophobia that necessitated the defining of 'stranger.' And is that a dig at my erratically brilliant spelling?


I doubt that it is possible to provide a link to the unabridged. I can however provide a link to the webbie's definition.

Wait a few minutes and I will grab a definition from Funk and Wagnalls.

Dislike of strangers or foreigners. (International Edition)

[Daistallia 2104]

The definition from the wiki was for the word 'stranger.'

Wow, I leant a new meaning of "stranger" today. Thank you for letting me know that "stranger" means "a fear of or aversion to, not only people from other countries, but other cultures, subcultures and subsets of belief systems; in short, anyone who meets any list of criteria about their origin, religion, personal beliefs, habits, language, orientations, or any other criteria".

The Dictionary of Psychology gave the definition for xenophobia that necessitated the defining of 'stranger.'

Not correct. I also noter that you blatantly ignored the definition given in the wiki that specifically cited race.

(And perhaps the problem is not so much your misunderstanding of the word "xenophobia", but rather of your misunderstanding of the word "race", and it's historical connections to nationality.)

And is that a dig at my erratically brilliant spelling?

Nope. It's a suggestion that you consult a dictionary before attempting to spell words you have difficulty spelling correctly.

I doubt that it is possible to provide a link to the unabridged.

It would require both of us to have subscriptions. Note that what you continue linking to is the very abridged free online version.

Wait a few minutes and I will grab a definition from Funk and Wagnalls.

Dislike of strangers or foreigners. (International Edition)

Yet another definition not in concordance with your insistence upon xenophobia being defined by nationality rather than otherness. You are welcome to keep digging your hole....

[Kirrig]

The definition from the wiki was for the word 'stranger.'

Wow, I leant a new meaning of "stranger" today. Thank you for letting me know that "stranger" means "a fear of or aversion to, not only people from other countries, but other cultures, subcultures and subsets of belief systems; in short, anyone who meets any list of criteria about their origin, religion, personal beliefs, habits, language, orientations, or any other criteria".

The Dictionary of Psychology gave the definition for xenophobia that necessitated the defining of 'stranger.'

Not correct. I also noter that you blatantly ignored the definition given in the wiki that specifically cited race.

(And perhaps the problem is not so much your misunderstanding of the word "xenophobia", but rather of your misunderstanding of the word "race", and it's historical connections to nationality.)

And is that a dig at my erratically brilliant spelling?

Nope. It's a suggestion that you consult a dictionary before attempting to spell words you have difficulty spelling correctly.

I doubt that it is possible to provide a link to the unabridged.

It would require both of us to have subscriptions. Note that what you continue linking to is the very abridged free online version.

Wait a few minutes and I will grab a definition from Funk and Wagnalls.

Dislike of strangers or foreigners. (International Edition)

Yet another definition not in concordance with your insistence upon xenophobia being defined by nationality rather than otherness. You are welcome to keep digging your hole....

To be perfectly honest I only found at that the full version of the OED is online, between our post. And as I am not subscribed it is, for me, impossible.

The structure of the wiki paragraph leaves it ambiguous as to what 'it' is. One conclusion is that 'it' refers to the definition given in the previous sentence. However, it is equally reasonable to assume that 'it' refers to 'xenophobia.' In the former instance, the 'as defined by the OED' refers to the definition provided by the Dictionary of Psychology which relies upon the word stranger. This is a case of using one source to explain another. For most people, that seems silly which is why they would assume the 'it' refers to xenophobia.

And if you want to insult my spelling, please have the good grace to appear qualified to do so. Failing that, please identify my errrors. Yes, I am asking you to analyse my work and pick spelling mistakes.

Webster's is rubbish. I do not believe that is credible in the slightest, for any word.

[Daistallia 2104]

The structure of the wiki paragraph leaves it ambiguous as to what 'it' is. One conclusion is that 'it' refers to the definition given in the previous sentence. However, it is equally reasonable to assume that 'it' refers to 'xenophobia.' In the former instance, the 'as defined by the OED' refers to the definition provided by the Dictionary of Psychology which relies upon the word stranger. This is a case of using one source to explain another. For most people, that seems silly which is why they would assume the 'it' refers to xenophobia.

Actually no, there is no unclarity in the wiki. It is rather quite clear that, in a sentence in a paragraph defininmg athe word "xenophobia, following a sentence in which "it" was clearly refering to the word "xenophobia", "it" refers to "xenophobia". It is not at all reasonable to assume that "it" in this single sentence refers to "stranger", when every other usage in the paragraph clearlty refers to "xenophobia".

And if you want to insult my spelling, please have the good grace to appear qualified to do so.

Having taught English for 18 years is not qualification enough for you?

Failing that, please identify my errrors. Yes, I am asking you to analyse my work and pick spelling mistakes.

I got it from the webbie of the world's most reknowned dictionary.

Webster's is rubbish. I do not believe that is credible in the slightest, for any word.

The more's the loss for you and your argument, when you groundlessly denigrate respected reference material based on unfounded personal biases.

[Kirrig]

The structure of the wiki paragraph leaves it ambiguous as to what 'it' is. One conclusion is that 'it' refers to the definition given in the previous sentence. However, it is equally reasonable to assume that 'it' refers to 'xenophobia.' In the former instance, the 'as defined by the OED' refers to the definition provided by the Dictionary of Psychology which relies upon the word stranger. This is a case of using one source to explain another. For most people, that seems silly which is why they would assume the 'it' refers to xenophobia.

Actually no, there is no unclarity in the wiki. It is rather quite clear that, in a sentence in a paragraph defininmg athe word "xenophobia, following a sentence in which "it" was clearly refering to the word "xenophobia", "it" refers to "xenophobia". It is not at all reasonable to assume that "it" in this single sentence refers to "stranger", when every other usage in the paragraph clearlty refers to "xenophobia".

And if you want to insult my spelling, please have the good grace to appear qualified to do so.

Having taught English for 18 years is not qualification enough for you?

Failing that, please identify my errrors. Yes, I am asking you to analyse my work and pick spelling mistakes.

I got it from the webbie of the world's most reknowned dictionary.

Webster's is rubbish. I do not believe that is credible in the slightest, for any word.

The more's the loss for you and your argument, when you groundlessly denigrate respected reference material based on unfounded personal biases.

No. I find the English profession despicable. That said, I'm sure you are very good at your job. Thank you for finding that error.

Webster's may be respected, but I won't respect them until they can spell. Sounds hypocritical? I don't care, it just means I'm more qualified to know.

I find the leading paragraph quite difficult to understand. I'm fairly certain that 'defininmg' is 'defining' but a lot of the other errors are more complicated. That said, it is reasonable to assume that the 'it' does not refer to xenophobia given that it has been used twice with no break to introduce what 'it' is again.