Collective Guilt and Pride(And their inappropriate usage)

[Volnotova]

It annoys me so much.

"We won WWII"

"We suffered greatly!"

What a load of bollocks, most of the people on NS weren't even born back then(more then 99%).

So why is it that so many people keep referring to themselves as "we" as if they were somehow part of the war effort.

Not just that, the same can be said about inventions, discoveries, etc.

"I am an American therefore I am entitled to claim I participated in and won WWII" what a load of bollocks and what a filthy and utterly disgusting insult to all the war vetarans that actually fought during those wars.

Sometimes I wonder whether such people actually realise how incredibly stupid they sound when they say such things, same goes for the people that go, "WE INVENTED <insertinventiontheydidn'tcontributeto>!" or "THIS MAKES ME SO PROUD TO BE BRITISH/ROMANIAN/AMERICAN/RUSSIAN/Insertothernationality".

So what do you think NSG, do you too believe it is utterly ridiculous to say such things, to claim to be entitled to victories, discoveries, wars, battles and other defeats and triumphs that you never even contributed to, let alone were born when they occured?

Well, speak your mind NSG.

EDIT(From page 3): ...does everyone simply agree that you cannot take responsiblity for things you did not contribute to and that you cannot take responsibility for certain things simply because you share ethnicity/ideology/religion/class/profession/nationality/skin colour and that the only way you can take credit and/or responsiblity for things is if you are actually responsible for the said things?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

[Conserative Morality]

Is it really so terrible that people feel connected with the history of their country? And those people never claimed that they personally won the war.

[Vetalia]

We= the United States of America (or whoever), i.e. a collective reference to the nation itself. They're not taking personal credit for it...this should be obvious. If I say "we suffered greatly during the Depression", it's not because I took part in that period but because it's a true statement about the experience of the American people of the time.

[Conserative Morality]

We= the United States of America (or whoever), i.e. a collective reference to the nation itself. They're not taking personal credit for it...this should be obvious.

Not when you're trying to make a pedantic distinction in order to paint people who are proud of their country's accomplishments in a negative light.

[Tosmaldevo]

The usage of "we" in this context indicates the individual's identification as x, meaning that he believes that x contributed significantly to y event.

Is it really so terrible that people feel connected with the history of their country? And those people never claimed that they personally won the war.

The remainder of what must be said.

[Volnotova]

Is it really so terrible that people feel connected with the history of their country? And those people never claimed that they personally won the war.

I am a Jew, am I entitled to claim that I(or better said, We the Jews) came up with the Theories of General and Special Relativity.

It is ridiculous, it is laughable.

Connected to the history of your country? You weren't even born, thus you cannot claim you won the war, or that you invented <insertsomethinginventedordiscoveredbyAmericans>.

Those people do claim they personally won the war, because they identify themselves with millions of war veterans by saying "We won the war".

Bollocks, they weren't even around to see the end of the war, let alone having been able to participate in it.

[Vetalia]

[
I am a Jew, am I entitled to claim that I(or better said, We the Jews) came up with the Theories of General and Special Relativity.

Nope, that's a pretty ridiculous fallacy. You didn't collectively invent those theories, an individual did, so you can't take credit for them solely on the basis of shared ethnic or national background. However, the American *people* as a whole played a central role in winning WWII so we as a collective group can take pride in our country's accomplishments.

[Conserative Morality]

I am a Jew, am I entitled to claim that I(or better said, We the Jews) came up with the Theories of General and Special Relativity.

It is ridiculous, it is laughable.

Good thing people aren't claiming the achievements of specific American individuals, and instead the output of the American State and American culture and society, huh?

Connected to the history of your country? You weren't even born, thus you cannot claim you won the war, or that you invented <insertsomethinginventedordiscoveredbyAmericans>.

Because people are claiming that they personally won the war, durr hurr.

Those people do claim they personally won the war, because they identify themselves with millions of war veterans by saying "We won the war".

"Identifying with" /=/ "Claiming the credit for personally"

Seriously, this is basic English.

Bollocks, they weren't even around to see the end of the war, let alone having been able to participate in it.

See mockery and criticism above.

[Vetalia]

Not when you're trying to make a pedantic distinction in order to paint people who are proud of their country's accomplishments in a negative light.

Good point.

[Revolutopia]

Do you think that WW2 vets are offended by the use of people saying "We won WW2", because I am guessing that the vast majority are not as they realize the we is being used in the national sense which they probably appreciate.

[Tosmaldevo]

Is it really so terrible that people feel connected with the history of their country? And those people never claimed that they personally won the war.

I am a Jew, am I entitled to claim that I(or better said, We the Jews) came up with the Theories of General and Special Relativity.

It is ridiculous, it is laughable.

Connected to the history of your country? You weren't even born, thus you cannot claim you won the war, or that you invented <insertsomethinginventedordiscoveredbyAmericans>.

Those people do claim they personally won the war, because they identify themselves with millions of war veterans by saying "We won the war".

Bollocks, they weren't even around to see the end of the war, let alone having been able to participate in it.

We, in this context, indicates the individual's identification as a member of x group (i.e. "We [the populace of the victorious states in y war], won the war"). I am assuming you are referring to the Allied Powers during WWII, in which all major members were, or became, involved in 'total war' and hence adopted a war economy - therefore, the entire employed populace of x state contributed to the war effort, meaning the individual is identifying himself as a member of the populace of x and relating himself to the historical populaces who participated in the war economy.

When saying "We the Jews did a," you are identifying yourself as a Jew, a group that has done a. Whether you can claim sole credit for a is debatable.

[Vetalia]

Do you think that WW2 vets are offended by the use of people saying "We won WW2", because I am guessing that the vast majority are not as they realize the we is being used in the national sense which they probably appreciate.

WW2 veterans are probably the most respected and admired group of veterans, or even people in general, in the United States so I think they're quite fine with it.

[Volnotova]

We= the United States of America (or whoever), i.e. a collective reference to the nation itself. They're not taking personal credit for it...this should be obvious. If I say "we suffered greatly during the Depression", it's not because I took part in that period but because it's a true statement about the experience of the American people of the time.

Yes you are, if you say "We invented the automobile" that means you are part of a group/team that invented the automobile.

If you want to be correct then say "The United States won WWII together with its allies".

"We won the war" only applies if you participated in it(Be it that you signed the peace treaty, were in the army or participated in any way in the war effort).

I have seen so many times the constant bullshit about people going "WE BEAT YOU IN WWII!!!" "WE INVENTED <insertinvention> AND YOU DIDN'T THUS THAT MAKES US BETTER!"

The amount of collective idiocy makes me want to sew the palm of my hand to my face.

Also note that this rarely happens with events perceived as negative/bad/immoral.

Have you ever seen an American citizen going "We commited mass murder on innocent Vietnamese citizens", "We bombed the Al-Shifa Pharmaceutical Factory", "We tortured innocent citizens in Guantánamo Bay" or "We Germans feel guilty for we commited the holocaust" or "We British razed Dresden to the ground, killing tenthousands of innocent civilians"?

No, bullshit.

The entire collective We-Speak nonsense really pisses me off. Be a hero, if you claim to be entitled to all the good things of your country then have the balls to claim to have been part of the bad things to.

Be a hero and say to my face that you commited the holocaust.
Say it to my face you bombed and razed an import German cultural city to the ground.
Say it to my face that you dropped 2 nuclear bombs and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

What an utter load of bollocks, such hypocrites do not have my respect.

[Tosmaldevo]

Yes you are, if you say "We invented the automobile" that means you are part of a group/team that invented the automobile.

You may have joined this team at a later date, hence you can say "We invented the automobile" with the unsaid clause you were not a part of the team at this time; however, the team still invented and you are a member of this team, and as "we" refers to the team and yourself, you are justified in saying so.

Also note that this rarely happens with events perceived as negative/bad/immoral.

Presumably few people will take pride in participation in events they perceive as immoral.

Have you ever seen an American citizen going "We commited mass murder on innocent Vietnamese citizens", "We bombed the Al-Shifa Pharmaceutical Factory", "We tortured innocent citizens in Guantánamo Bay", "We Germans feel guilty for we commited the holocaust" or "We British razed Dresden to the ground, destroying killing tenthousands of innocent civilians"?

All of these are debatable as to whether the intention of each event was purely psychosis.

[Volnotova]

[
I am a Jew, am I entitled to claim that I(or better said, We the Jews) came up with the Theories of General and Special Relativity.

Nope, that's a pretty ridiculous fallacy. You didn't collectively invent those theories, an individual did, so you can't take credit for them solely on the basis of shared ethnic or national background. However, the American *people* as a whole played a central role in winning WWII so we as a collective group can take pride in our country's accomplishments.

You weren't part of those American people. The American nation of that time was different and you weren't part of it.

And collective group? look at your self. Have you even fired a rifle or been on a battle field? Have you fought in Normandy or on the beaches of Iwo Jima?

No, you didn't, you are by no means entitled to claim you contributed to those things.



What some here are claiming is that saying you contributed to the Theories of Special and General Relativity because you are a Jew is wrong, but saying you won WWII and invented I-Don't-Know-What is ok because you are American, even if you don't know those people, have never seen a battle field in your entire life and have no freaking idea of what you are talking about.

It falls in the same category as the utterly idiotic concept of collective guilt(Assuming all Germans commmited the Holocaust and/or were Nazis) or being sinful because you are human(See Catholicism).

Hypocricy all along: If your enemies did something good - the work of individuals, if they did something bad - collective guilt.

If the country you are a citizen of did something good - Collective Pride, if something bad happens(genocide, bombing innocent civilians, mass murder, exploitation, etc.) - The work of individuals.

Utterly pathetic if you ask me.

[Anti-Obamaland]

It annoys me so much.

"We won WWII"

"We suffered greatly!"

What a load of bollocks, most of the people on NS weren't even born back then(more then 99%).

So why is it that so many people keep referring to themselves as "we" as if they were somehow part of the war effort.

Not just that, the same can be said about inventions, discoveries, etc.

"I am an American therefore I am entitled to claim I participated in and won WWII" what a load of bollocks and what a filthy and utterly disgusting insult to all the war vetarans that actually fought during those wars.

Sometimes I wonder whether such people actually realise how incredibly stupid they sound when they say such things, same goes for the people that go, "WE INVENTED <insertinventiontheydidn'tcontributeto>!" or "THIS MAKES ME SO PROUD TO BE BRITISH/ROMANIAN/AMERICAN/RUSSIAN/Insertothernationality".

So what do you think NSG, do you too believe it is utterly ridiculous to say such things, to claim to be entitled to victories, discoveries, wars, battles and other defeats and triumphs that you never even contributed to, let alone were born when they occured?

Well, speak your mind NSG.

I think it is utterly asinine that you can't understand the use of the English language.

[Foster]

Well America as a whole didn't bomb Japan, a man in a plane did. Yet we get blamed for that aswell. People don't understand that even if it's not specificly you, your group of people did and there fore you take the blame along with the glory. Everyone wants to keep there glory and get rid of there blame, but everyone also wants to push there blame on others, we all have blame to hold and we must accept that.

[Tosmaldevo]

Volnotova, your evidently large resource of butthurt is preventing me from fully understanding what your argument is in the last post. Do you plan to actually respond to my arguments?

[Vetalia]

Yes you are, if you say "We invented the automobile" that means you are part of a group/team that invented the automobile.

Why would I say that? The United States didn't collectively invent the automobile. I could maybe say the Model T was an American invention in the sense that it was an American who developed it, but I don't use "we" when referring to it...let alone the automobile itself, which IIRC was first developed in Germany.

If you want to be correct then say "The United States won WWII together with its allies".

"We won the war" only applies if you participated in it(Be it that you signed the peace treaty, were in the army or participated in any way in the war effort).

That's pedantic and pointless. "We" refers just as collectively to the Allied powers as it does to any individual nation.

I have seen so many times the constant bullshit about people going "WE BEAT YOU IN WWII!!!" "WE INVENTED <insertinvention> AND YOU DIDN'T THUS THAT MAKES US BETTER!"

I don't see that very often, but I can *guarantee* you it happens everywhere...regardless, even so, claiming "we" invented something or other is in reference to the conditions that allowed that innovation to occur, namely the government and society that enabled innovative individuals to reach their full potential and contribute to society.

Have you ever seen an American citizen going "We commited mass murder on innocent Vietnamese citizens", "We bombed the Al-Shifa Pharmaceutical Factory", "We tortured innocent citizens in Guantánamo Bay" or "We Germans feel guilty for we commited the holocaust" or "We British razed Dresden to the ground, killing tenthousands of innocent civilians"?

Well, no, because Americans don't condone those actions. That being said, the Germans DO feel guilty for committing the Holocaust, hence the extensive reparation payments, the Nuremberg trials, de-Nazification after the war and the ongoing bans on the Nazi swastika and other imagery.

Be a hero and say to my face that you commited the holocaust.
Say it to my face you bombed and razed an import German cultural city to the ground.
Say it to my face that you dropped 2 nuclear bombs and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

What an utter load of bollocks, such hypocrites do not have my respect.

I didn't commit the Holocaust, seeing as how I would have either been living in the United States or killed as one of its victims by virtue of being a subhuman Slav.

The bombing of Dresden, while a terrible crime by today's standards...it wasn't the same back then. It was precisely because of things like that that we moved to develop international institutions and international laws after the war. The Allies weren't completely innocent by a long shot, and nobody disputes that. And don't pretend for a second that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were wrong given the facts and circumstances; as it stood in 1945 the alternative would have been a bloody, devastating invasion of Japan that would have consumed far more lives than those bombs did. Like it nor not, they along with the Soviet invasion of Manchuria ended the war far more quickly than it would have ended without them.

Are these things moral or ethical? I'd say that if we knew what we do now we wouldn't have committed them...but times change. Hindsight is always 20/20, but when you've been fighting a bitter war against determined, and quite frankly barbaric enemies for 6 years it's a lot different.

[Northwest Slobovia]

It annoys me so much.

"We won WWII"

"We suffered greatly!"

What a load of bollocks, most of the people on NS weren't even born back then(more then 99%).

I was there three thousand years ago. I was there the day the strength of Men failed.

[Volnotova]

You may have joined this team at a later date, hence you can say "We invented the automobile" with the unsaid clause you were not a part of the team at this time; however, the team still invented and you are a member of this team, and as "we" refers to the team and yourself, you are justified in saying so.

Only if you helped contribute in inventing the automobile.

Just because you are part of a familly that of which 1 or more members won a a noble prize does not mean you are entitled to claim you won the noble prize.

Just because you are a part of a team of which some of its members were part of a team that invented the automobile does not mean you are entitled to claim you invented to automobile(you weren't there, you didn't contribute to it).

Presumably few people will take pride in participation in events they perceive as immoral.

Which is absolutely hypocrite beyond words, see my previous post.

So lets say if the American president does something good or some group that is American then you experience colective pride.

But if not it is simply the work of individuals? Pathetic and pretty cowardly if you ask me.

Why do you claim to have won wars you never participated in yet alone were there to see them and claim you invented things when you don't even know what they are but do not have the courage to claim responsibility for genocides, human rights violations, acts of war rape ande etc.?

All of these are debatable as to whether the intention of each event was purely psychosis.

Red herring. Do not come to me and claim to be part of all the "good" things of your country and what its citizens have accomplished in the past but then go claim that the bad things are merely the work of individuals.

If you claim Collective Pride but not Collective Guilt then that simply makes you a coward and a hypocrite.

You take personal responsibility for the good stuff, but when the fecal matter collides with the ventilator you blame others.

[Great Nepal]

Yes you are, if you say "We invented the automobile" that means you are part of a group/team that invented the automobile.
If you want to be correct then say "The United States won WWII together with its allies".
"We won the war" only applies if you participated in it(Be it that you signed the peace treaty, were in the army or participated in any way in the war effort).
I have seen so many times the constant bullshit about people going "WE BEAT YOU IN WWII!!!" "WE INVENTED <insertinvention> AND YOU DIDN'T THUS THAT MAKES US BETTER!"

Because, populace of US did win the war against populace of axis (along with other allied nations). And, an American person is a member of populace of USA.

The amount of collective idiocy makes me want to sew the palm of my hand to my face.

Feeling is mutual...

Also note that this rarely happens with events perceived as negative/bad/immoral.
Have you ever seen an American citizen going "We commited mass murder on innocent Vietnamese citizens", "We bombed the Al-Shifa Pharmaceutical Factory", "We tortured innocent citizens in Guantánamo Bay" or "We Germans feel guilty for we commited the holocaust" or "We British razed Dresden to the ground, killing tenthousands of innocent civilians"?
No, bullshit.
The entire collective We-Speak nonsense really pisses me off. Be a hero, if you claim to be entitled to all the good things of your country then have the balls to claim to have been part of the bad things to.
Be a hero and say to my face that you commited the holocaust.
Say it to my face you bombed and razed an import German cultural city to the ground.
Say it to my face that you dropped 2 nuclear bombs and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.
What an utter load of bollocks, such hypocrites do not have my respect.

Because...
When you do something good you go and scream about it.
When you do something bad, you dont go out and scream about it.

Example:-
If my friend, who I met few times decades ago, wins a noble prize, I will go and say that my close friend won a noble prize however, if my cousin gets nicked for drug smuggling, I will pretend I never known him.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Also note that this rarely happens with events perceived as negative/bad/immoral.

Have you ever seen an American citizen going "We commited mass murder on innocent Vietnamese citizens", "We bombed the Al-Shifa Pharmaceutical Factory", "We tortured innocent citizens in Guantánamo Bay" or "We Germans feel guilty for we commited the holocaust" or "We British razed Dresden to the ground, killing tenthousands of innocent civilians"?

"Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan." --JFK, another great American.

[Vetalia]

Only if you helped contribute in inventing the automobile.

Just because you are part of a familly that of which 1 or more members won a a noble prize does not mean you are entitled to claim you won the noble prize.

See, that's where you're just not getting it. You keep bringing up individual examples rather than collective ones where the use of "we" would apply. Now, if the American people collectively won the Nobel prize, then you could say "we won the Nobel prize" and it would be appropriate. That being said, context is really, really important here...everyone knows you don't mean you literally won the prize, it's a collective "we" referring to the continuous history of the group.

And you've still failed to address my comments on the nature of that "we". Using "we" to refer to a group isn't the same as the collective "we" implied here.

[Demonatrix]

This seems to originate with the OP posting on another thread objecting to somebody saying that their family annals indicated that "we" (ie the family whose members served in world war one) didn't know why their country was fighting on the side it did.

I posted a reply there, but I'll ask here too, does the OP never refer to their family as "we", as in "we" celebrate christmass with a turkey, or "we" went on holiday to spain, or "we" moved to a new house?

The OP might also have missed the poster stating that they have been in the military, and come from a military family, on other threads where that question was asked.

This thread is pretentious angst.