Jesus died for you.

[Four-sided Triangles]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

[The Warrior Hearted]

cue christian extremists and wrathful atheists in 3....2....1....

[Conserative Morality]

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

Yes.

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

Because he chooses to. Because gray is the product of human morality.

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

Actually, considering the idea that someone must be punished in equal measure in order to remove the wrong from the world... It does, in God's eyes.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

Surely making it easy would defeat the purpose?

[Rupudska]

Mister Four-Sided-Triangles, I must congratulate you. Never before have I seen a more perfect thread to launch an apocalyptic flamewar between fundie Christians and militant atheists.

[Ceannairceach]

1,2,3,4: Its a fairytale. Expect convoluted plots to be plentiful to get half-assed points across.

[Eslovakia]

The one thing god (if hes up there...) can't do...forgive

[The Warrior Hearted]

Mister Four-Sided-Triangles, I must congratulate you. Never before have I seen a more perfect thread to launch an apocalyptic flamewar between fundie Christians and militant atheists.

ninja'd you

[Beldonia]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

1. Because Eve comitted the original sin. In this case, yes. And yes.

2. You don't. You won't go to hell unless you sin A LOT. He does see shades of gray. If he is all-knowing, then he sees your intentions.

3. Jesus was fine with it. That was the whole plan from the beginning. I don't really have a good answer for you, I just think you should be happy that Jesus died for you....if you believe that.

4. Yeah.....I've never quite gotten that. But I kind of just go along with it. Going to confession doesn't really tax me that much in terms of time.

[Vorradia]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

Of course it doesn't make any sense, its a load of nonsense.

Christian doctrine is so horrendously unfair because it was formed by a human-hating self-pitying medieval clergy that thought that man was a despicable and disgusting result accident.

[The Rich Port]

Don't try to bring logic into this.

THIS IS CHRISTIANITY, BITCH.

Convert. That way you don't have to ask so many questions.

[Rupudska]

Mister Four-Sided-Triangles, I must congratulate you. Never before have I seen a more perfect thread to launch an apocalyptic flamewar between fundie Christians and militant atheists.

ninja'd you

Meh.

*reads Beldonia's and Vorradia's posts* And so it begins.

[The Truth and Light]

Whether Jesus' death was real, I am not sure. But to me, it reperesents the death and resurrection of innocence in humanity. Which is cryptic, I know.

[Four-sided Triangles]

Because he chooses to. Because gray is the product of human morality.

Gray is the product of the world being to complex to break down in terms of simplistic ideals of behavior. Gray is the product of all such simplistic systems inevitably leading to contradictions and paradoxes when placed into the complexities of reality.

Actually, considering the idea that someone must be punished in equal measure in order to remove the wrong from the world... It does, in God's eyes.

"Wrong" is not a substance that can be removed from anything in the same way you wash dirt off your hands. In addition, justice is contingent upon the RIGHT person getting punishment. Utilitarian measures aren't even concerned with punishment if it's unnecessary to improve the world.

How exactly is punishing an innocent bystander going to lead to either justice or a better outcome? How will it improve the universe?

Surely making it easy would defeat the purpose?

What purpose? The whole system serves no greater purpose than god's amusement.

[Secular Sweden]

Mister Four-Sided-Triangles, I must congratulate you. Never before have I seen a more perfect thread to launch an apocalyptic flamewar between fundie Christians and militant atheists.

I bring the popcorn! Let us enjoy the show...

[Rupudska]

Mister Four-Sided-Triangles, I must congratulate you. Never before have I seen a more perfect thread to launch an apocalyptic flamewar between fundie Christians and militant atheists.

I bring the popcorn! Let us enjoy the show...

My atheist friend, let us put aside our religious differences and enjoy the show! *puts on heat shield*

[Conserative Morality]

Gray is the product of the world being to complex to break down in terms of simplistic ideals of behavior. Gray is the product of all such simplistic systems inevitably leading to contradictions and paradoxes when placed into the complexities of reality.

Incorrect, God can see and define things as right and wrong without any inbetween, as he defines right and wrong.

"Wrong" is not a substance that can be removed from anything in the same way you wash dirt off your hands.

Erm, according to Christian theology? It obviously is.

In addition, justice is contingent upon the RIGHT person getting punishment. Utilitarian measures aren't even concerned with punishment if it's unnecessary to improve the world.

Why is God interested in Utilitarianism?

How exactly is punishing an innocent bystander going to lead to either justice or a better outcome? How will it improve the universe?

By getting rid of the sin/why is that God's concern?

What purpose? The whole system serves no greater purpose than god's amusement.

You make that assertion here, but before this you reject it?

[Beldonia]

ninja'd you

Meh.

*reads Beldonia's and Vorradia's posts* And so it begins.

I'm actually not in the mood to argue with devout athiests today. I was just saying what I think. If I see something that evokes strong emotions or that I feel I need to say something about, however, I will.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

Trolling and baseless, ideological clashes begin....................now!

[Osoaribbean]

Mister Four-Sided-Triangles, I must congratulate you. Never before have I seen a more perfect thread to launch an apocalyptic flamewar between fundie Christians and militant atheists.

Let's ..Original sin...Garden of Eden...um.

Rupduska is right, flamewar, so I'll give the give cliff note version I have used in my life.

God may forgive you, I will not. So give your heart to Jesus, because your ass belongs to the Corps.

United States Marine Corps Doctrine that predates R.Lee Ermy's use of it in "Full Metal Jacket"

[Marohirohi]

-snip-

Because there is no god.

[The Rich Port]

Trolling and baseless, ideological clashes begin....................now!

I don't think you give us too much credit.

IMO, Adam and Eve weren't real. The concept of original sin is, therefore, bunk.

[The Warrior Hearted]

Trolling and baseless, ideological clashes begin....................now!

already started


Personally i dont believe any religion but i also dont care what other people follow. Its their choice.


Still, this is going to be an interesting war to watch

[The Floridian Coast]

It is already completely absurd to think that a being infinitely more complex than us would be at all concerned with our 'sins' anymore than we would make moral judgments about movements of bacteria within a petri dish.

[Kevinland12]

no he did not he died becase he was a crimalnal and thats all so

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Okay, explain something to me. According to Christian doctrine, I'm born automatically sinful, no matter what. Because of this, I apparently deserve death. However, I am allowed to displace this punishment by killing something else, like a goat or other animal. Of course, since Jesus died on the cross, I no longer have to sacrifice anything, because his death acts like the sacrifice for everyone.

Okay, I have some problems with this.

1. Why am I born automatically sinful? Doesn't that mean that sin has no connection to actual wrongs I commit? Doesn't that mean that the game is just rigged against me automatically?

2. How do I deserve death for sin? Does god not recognize gradations? He really sees every sin as equally bad? Shouldn't an all-powerful and all-knowing being have MORE capacity to see shades of gray, and MORE capacity to see the subtleties of the world? Why does god think in such childishly simplistic binary terms?

3. How does the death of something else make my sin go away? Punishing an innocent person for someone else's crimes does not serve justice. In fact, it compounds injustice and makes it even worse. Not only is the guilty person getting off free, but some innocent being is punished in their stead. From both the standpoint of justice and the standpoint of utilitarian minimization of harm, the idea of penal substitution simply fails to be moral or even coherent.

4. Why is god incapable of forgiving sin without such an elaborate and pointless ritual when I, a lowly human, can forgive transgressions against me with ease? Surely it would be easy for an ALL-POWERFUL being to forgive sins without sacrificing himself to himself.

Because peopl believe it. People are lemmings.